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Taking the republican route are we Vinland? Me gusta!

I'm not buff on Medival(early 1000's) Europe, but if a division of the Nordic countries were to be made, would Denmark, Norway and parts of modern-day Sweden go in one piece?
In either case the kingdom of Finland and Norther Sweden is sure to drift into the influence of either of the other two eventually, unless allying with a powerful neighbour to the East.

As always, I love it. Maps and/or a total population count in the New World would be welcomed! :D


The Republican route I see as a very high possibility with the Icelandic influences coupled with the extreme abundance that makes feudalism have less influence on the common man.

The common person in Leifrvalde has much more wealth than the common man in Scandinavia, this leads to less of a higher class and the beginning of a middle class or at least a much more wealthy lower class, mix this with Icelandic Ideals of freedom and every man having a say and then further mix it with the vast land ruled and I think that's a recipe for representative democracy.

Albeit its not a complete democracy, village and town chief titles are still hereditary but they never really have any business in the Allthing.


And about the divisions, it was not done officially. The sons had armies under their command and when their father bit the dust that grabbed as much land as they could and yelled Mine.
 
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Albeit its not a complete democracy, village and town chief titles are still hereditary but they never really have any business in the Allthing.

Cool, are they operating under a leidang-system(conscription at the time; each town fields x number of ships/men depending on size)?
With this breeding ground for, relatively speaking, freedom, Vinland could very well be a troublesome "dutch"-like environment where tolerance and multiple ways of thinking can coexist!


And about the divisions, it was not done officially. The sons had armies under there command and when their father bit the dust that grabbed as much land as they could and yelled "Mine!".
Haha, well, boys will be boys I guess. I hope for an independent Norway, those are always fun.
 
Cool, are they operating under a leidang-system(conscription at the time; each town fields x number of ships/men depending on size)?
With this breeding ground for, relatively speaking, freedom, Vinland could very well be a troublesome "dutch"-like environment where tolerance and multiple ways of thinking can coexist!



Haha, well, boys will be boys I guess. I hope for an independent Norway, those are always fun.

It operates on population of the town mostly, fields and ships are (mostly) privately owned and only around Nawahlid does the government care about having it's own fields what with tax revenue being more than enough to support it.

And while different ideas could co-exist, don't forget that this new 'democracy' was started by brutally murdering an entire clan. These people are still Norse and aren't afraid to murder brutally if it suits their objective, although that could change in time. We'll just have to see :). (And Olaf Sweynsson was a Norwegian so you could consider Norway to be ruling over Denmark? What with the new Capital in Bergen and all so you could consider it that way)
 
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Wanted to do more but I got everything covered and I reeeaaaly don't want to have to go into Rus vs. Mongol territory. Although then again if I'm willing to do Iberia then Rus shouldn't be so hard (Right?).

Before you people freak, there is evidence that the league could have been established at around 1000 A.D. give or take a decade or two, so it's still relatively new.

(People also keep saying that it happened at an eclipse, but I find it more likely that the "Darkness" described was most likely thick clouds or something).

1107-1111

Some of the Haudenosaunee had known of the Norse, although contact was very little and most of the Haudenosaunee had lived so far inland that only those close to the Lake had ever made contact with them. The Seneca tribe who guardians of the 'western door' had made nearly all the contacts, many of their chieftains had Iron daggers or other trinkets as a sign of power. In recent years with the rising popularity of Storfoss, more attention has been paid to the land of the Lakes and with the other tribes making contact with the Norse eventually with many travelling men going down the Nawa River and speaking of the huge settlements on it. The Great Council, or Rotinonsionni in the official language of the full council; had decided to make further contact with the pale skinned men. The Seneca were not fond of the decision at all and wanted to keep their monopoly on contact and trade with the Norse, however with the tribes to the east making contact with the various portage villages along the River Nawa it was inevitable.

The Chieftain of Storfoss had greeted the Skraeling 'emissaries' and even had translators who knew the various dialects that the Haudenosaunee used. The Skraelings were then told to venture down the River Nawa until it reached the sea to find the center of the Western Norse world. When the Paramount Chieftain of Leifrvalde Ketil Bjornsson had spoke with the Skraelings they had discussed many things that the Haudenosaunee were interested in, Ketil Bjornsson agreed to trading pacts and wished to travel back to their lands to meet with the Rotinonsionni to get more things agreed on. When he had traveled their lands he brought with him various missionaries who knew of the Skraeling tongue, by the time he went before the Rotinonsionni many of the villages had been visited by Missionaries and converted a significant amount of Skraelings. The Rotinonsionni had asked Ketil Bjornsson many things; how was Iron made? How do you bake bread? How do you get Lime from Limestone? All these things he said he didn't know exactly but would be eager to form trade deals for them.

The Haudenosaunee may have been primitive, but they were not stupid and could easily see the intentions of Ketil Bjornsson and the meeting ended with a few trade deals but nothing significant done. When Ketil had found that many of the Missionaries had been killed by the Skraelings who claimed that many of the things they preached had gone against the words of the "Great Peace Maker", in response Ketil went to Storfoss and with some of the Town Guard along with the warriors escorting him he attacked and burnt down several of the villages thought to have killed the missionaries. He brought back to Storfoss loads of food and even some slaves, he had called to Gifurflud for reinforcements and Skraeling Auxiliaries. The Rotinonsionni had then agreed that the Norse were enemies and that all converts were to renounce their new faith or be killed.

To Ketil Bjornsson this was the perfect casus belli and he had defeated many Haudenosaunee villages, after nearly a century the Norse had learned to fight against the tactics employed by Skraelings, the Crossbow had shredded down many Haudenosaunee fighters with its superior range. The Norse were not the only ones fighting against the Haudenosaunee, the Skraelings to the east had long been enemies of the Haudenosaunee and were taking advantage of the Norse attacks and invaded the Haudenosaunee territory as well. Eventually the Rotinonsionni had surrendered to Ketil Bjornsson's army at the end of a sword and the conditions for peace were: that they would submit to the authority of the Allthing, every prominent member would have to give a hostage from their families, and that they would accept the teachings of Jesus Christ. To further cement the deal (no pun intended,(okay maybe a little)) Ketil had a church built out of stone with mortar and plastered with Lime brought from Storfoss, a Priest would remain with fifteen bodyguards to man the church and spread the gospel into the Skraeling lands.

In Leifrvalde further advancements into shipbuilding took place, multiple masts had been around for a while but now they were being heavily used and with the widespread use of 'heavy' ships which there was no chance of portage because they had been approximately as long as five and a half standard knarrs that were being used in Scandinavia and four times as wide, and they were also much taller with storage and crew quarters under the deck. They were capable of crossing the Atlantic from Vinland to Ireland with no need for stops; However this was still uneconomical and the Heavy ships were designed to travel south along the coast much faster and to be able to successfully make regular trade with the Heitteyjar which has been mostly disconnected with the rest of the world other than Iberia. However the 'heavy' ships came at a price that it would take large efforts to properly dock them where separate docks had to be built to support them.
Along the Nawa River the the first Great Lake however ship technology was taking a different turn. The old longship used in Scandinavia for generations had been ideal in swimming up rivers and portaging, however along the new lands they needed to be able to hold more cargo while still being able to be easily portaged. The result of the need was something people did not expect, given how little sails were used along the lake and along the river the mast had been sacrificed for poles holding up small decks that were able to carry baggage. They also had a strange modification for portages, the hull had two large horizontal grooves along the bottom that were able to accommodate wheels and an axle to pull it across short distances and whatnot.

In Britain, Malcolm the Third had been preparing for a great campaign to take the rest of England. Olaf Haraldsson had been bedridden for years and his son Sigurd had been ruling in his stead and had proven to be a fair ruler and a mighty warrior, seeing an opportunity Malcolm had an assassin poison Sigurd with a non-lethal poison and spread rumors that it was his brothers seeking the crown. With the brothers rising up in rebellion merely to save themselves is when Malcolm begun his great invasion of England, however his acts in poisoning Sigurd had been a poor idea as the brothers rebellions had made the English prepare for conflict and he was not able to use the advantage of surprise as he had wanted to. Malcolm was able to fight and kill two of the brothers that rose in revolt leaving only one who surrendered to Sigurd and joined forces that were able to fight back the Scottish army. In the end the Scottish were able to make small territorial gains but was largely seen as a waste.
Malcolm then had the Idea to ally with Welsh nations, he then supported the nation of Deheubarth and gave them support against Gwynedd. With Crossbows the Welsh of Deheubarth had managed to conquer Gwynedd, Powys, and Morgannwg and was well on the way to unifying Wales. The King, Hywel ap Rhys had already claimed to be the rightful king of all Wales and had proclaimed he and King Malcolm were in the process of "Establishing the Celtic people to the position of the rightful owners of the Island once more." Malcolm had approved of this and used it as a reason for having taken such vast amounts of land from England, although with his Quarter-Norse heritage and his mainly Orkney Norse army many saw this as hypocritical. Hywel eventually was able to take Cornwall and a portion of Mercia. With England in it's current state Wales wasn't at as much a disadvantage anymore with Scotland as an ally and being more or less unified.

In Iberia, many Crown endorsed privateers had raided Arab settlements in North Africa. However some had gone down the Atlantic coast and found an archipelago of islands, they were named the Runnieyjar. The Islands were inhabited by a primitive people similar to Skraelings of Leifrvalde, but little attention was paid to the land and other than some trade for things like Iron and cloth in exchange for loads of fish or other everyday material but in bulk.
The Iberian Emperor, Einar Rollosson was a mere figurehead for his wife Urraca. While Einar led the armies plenty, it was Uracca that handled all political matters, this was an asset because many of the Norse mercenaries in Iberia had been thrilled with a Norseman being Emperor but the Iberian nobility were content with the rule of Urraca. While Einar may look like a brute from this angle, it is no small feat to be able to hold onto the small bit of land in North Africa and to keep the Muslim Hordes away, it was just as important as managing the realm that the straits of Gibraltar stay Christian.

The Crusades had been somewhat successful, the Jordan River valley was more or less under Christian control; However the Saracen strongholds in the mountains west of the Jordan River were still holding and Jerusalem was still under Muslim rule. The Crusaders were desperate after years or fighting to take back the Holy City, however the best strategy to retake the holy land would be a strategy that was used to retake it once before. With using strategies employed by Joshua in the Old Testament, a group of Crusaders originating mostly from France and Italy were able to cut off enough supply routes that the Mountains were easier to take. The City of Jerusalem held strong however despite other towns in the area falling, however the other than Jerusalem the last Saracen Stronghold remained. The Ancient Fortress of Masada was famous for only Thirty or Forty Jews being able to resist the Romans for three years within it's confines before committing suicide, this time it would lay host to a defending army of around two hundred and fifty.

When the Crusaders tried to breach the fort they quickly found the reason why the army of thousands of Romans didn't take it so easily, the Fort of Masada is quite the piece of engineering and with the fact there was little to no wood nearby to build scaling ladders or even just to simply light fires the Crusaders had to do as the Romans once did and wait for the enemies food stores to run out. This was not as easy as it sounds, the mountain which Masada is based on is host to nut and fruit trees as well as being large enough to contain it's own aquifer; while they had sufficient water eventually the food was going to run out and the Nuts and Fruits would only delay the inevitable and after two years the Fortress had fallen to Crusader forces.

With Masada out of the way nearly all Crusader forces were aimed at the siege of Jerusalem which fell after a Year and Three Months. The News of the reclamation of Jerusalem was a welcoming prospect for many men in all of Christendom, as did the notion that most of the Holy Land was under the rule of Christianity; However much reclaimed by the Egyptian army. With this it was clear that the hold on the Holy land was still vulnerable and new key defenses would have to be put in place with the various Italian city states (most notably Venice) being responsible for the defense of Acre and the Northern border, while many of the various small time lords from the Holy Roman Empire were stationed along the Jordan Valley to stop any invasion from the east, the Norse (many were former members of the Varangian Guard),Normans, and even Anglo-Saxon Lords who escaped the fighting in England were put along the border to the south to defend against attacks from Egypt while also being gifted many fine horses to add to their cavalry forces. New Soldiers from Europe would be stationed in Jaffa and Caesaria, and new soldiers came plenty along with many pilgrims to see the holy land.
 
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I only rarely comment on the TLs I read.

Say, there's some Norsemen in the Hudson Bay in this one, right? Considered having them go upriver into the Canadian Prairie at all?
 
I only rarely comment on the TLs I read.

Say, there's some Norsemen in the Hudson Bay in this one, right? Considered having them go upriver into the Canadian Prairie at all?

Yes, Snorrisborg in Elgurland.

And they very well could have gone into the Canadian prairie but they would see little value in it.

But yeah, Elgurland is more irrelevant than Markland is.
 
Haha, cement the deal!

What's up with Scotland slowly becoming England? Seems like they're chipping away parts every few years.

I'm a little confused now, where exactly is Storfoss in OTL? I thought it was at the mouth of the river where the Great Lakes begin :confused:

Awesome to see a united Wales and Norse culture having a larger impact on the world, keep it up!

If anyone can, make a new map. We need some visual stimuli for the Norse-Gaels in Scotland, united Wales, the division of Scandinavia and of course Vinland :D
 
It is kinda funny how, i figured with vinland being BA the nords would rule england better, yet the exact opposite is the case. Although i suppose you could make the case malcolm being part norse himself is the scandinavian influence on england, but thats kinda tenuous
 
Haha, cement the deal!

What's up with Scotland slowly becoming England? Seems like they're chipping away parts every few years.

I'm a little confused now, where exactly is Storfoss in OTL? I thought it was at the mouth of the river where the Great Lakes begin :confused:

Awesome to see a united Wales and Norse culture having a larger impact on the world, keep it up!

If anyone can, make a new map. We need some visual stimuli for the Norse-Gaels in Scotland, united Wales, the division of Scandinavia and of course Vinland :D


Well Scotland due to it's new dynasty having part Norse have authority over Orkney and through such have the support of people in the Faroes and Shetlands who would be more than willing to support their cousins in battle. And initially taking advantage of the Chaos England was going through they were able to snag a piece, but with better farmland being able to support more troops they were able to take advantage of the Chaos further and snag even more land from England.

Storfoss is right on Niagara falls, thats what I was describing by the huge waterfall.

As for a map I'm looking for people, but a map of Vinland and other places in Norse America would be hard because there aren't really cut clean 'borders' most farms are situated around settlements so you would just see colored dots around the settlements for the most part.

Of course large areas are technically under Norse control, they aren't really colonized.
 
It is kinda funny how, i figured with vinland being BA the nords would rule england better, yet the exact opposite is the case. Although i suppose you could make the case malcolm being part norse himself is the scandinavian influence on england, but thats kinda tenuous

Well Malcolm does rule over Orkney as well, along with the cultural bonding going on between the Norse and Scots to become a mix of them both (Which did happen OTL too), this comes with lots of trade between Scandinavia and all the isles in the North Atlantic including Iceland, Shetland, and Faroe with some long distance trade with Greenland and Vinland.
 
Another though;
I've read that OTL French and English colonies in NA experienced extremely high birthrates coupled with good rates for survival(few plagues, war etc), with favourable conditions to expand(plenty of "uninhabited" land).
According to wikipedia the New England growth rate was up until 1790 almost entirely due to high birth rate and low death rate.

TTL's Vikings are not anywhere close technically to 15/16th century French or English, but how is the population growth?

By the year 1300, if there is approximately 47 000(the number you gave a while ago if I recall correctly) around year 1100, how much could this population grow by two centuries?

Anyone that has any knowledge please feel free to pitch in!
 
According to my limited knowledge Norse midwifery was pretty decent, they had a lot of children which means that women had to survive giving birth. But childhood mortality was brutal. Vinlanders have some potential to breed like viking bunnies hopped on Viagra, however. They should be well fed so their immune systems are not compromized and there should be no endemic disease to speak of which should really cut down infant mortality. If they can hit 2% annual growth their population would double every 35 years.
 
Another though;
I've read that OTL French and English colonies in NA experienced extremely high birthrates coupled with good rates for survival(few plagues, war etc), with favourable conditions to expand(plenty of "uninhabited" land).
According to wikipedia the New England growth rate was up until 1790 almost entirely due to high birth rate and low death rate.

TTL's Vikings are not anywhere close technically to 15/16th century French or English, but how is the population growth?

By the year 1300, if there is approximately 47 000(the number you gave a while ago if I recall correctly) around year 1100, how much could this population grow by two centuries?

Anyone that has any knowledge please feel free to pitch in!

Exactly, this is why I went on and on about how much better the living conditions were in Vinland and the rest of Norse America.

The population of Norse America at this time however would be somewhere close to 110,000 given people usually having lots of children and with immigration and slavery adding to the population.

by two centuries I couldn't say other than it may be approaching half a million or more.
 
by two centuries I couldn't say other than it may be approaching half a million or more.

Oh dang, pre-Black plague Norway(plus Orkney, Faroes and part of OTL Sweden) were around 150 000 people.

Vinland will certainly become a very interesting place in the future.
United it will be unstoppable, fragmented it will be very game of thrones-y
:D

Thank for the population count!
 
I guess there ain't much more than two other people following this TL then I guess.

eh, I'll take that as a sign to work on my other TL.
It is easy to presume that no comments means only a few people are reading this. But a lot of people here will read a tl and not leave a comment. MOstly because they don't know about the period or the history involved. Sometimes, they just wait for the next one.
You shouldn't be discouraged because I can guarantee that are many here who do enjoy reading this and I include myself in that.
So keep up the good work and enjoy yourself while you're at it.:)
 

Artaxerxes

Banned
I'm not sure many people are familiar with actual Norse culture and history, so don't be disheartened by a lack of comments, it just means they've nothing to contribute rather than your TL isn't any good (it is very good and I'm only up to page 7)

I only have 2 criticism's, one is that things have been a bit to quiet in Vinland, not enough factions and squabbling and the Skraelings are getting thoroughly depopulated, another is the building of full Atlantic crossing ships from the Azores to Spain.

I'm very curious how they are going to cope with the Little Ice Age and Black Death.
 
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