"Io Mihailŭ, Împĕratul Românilor" - A Michael the Brave Romania Wank

Map #52. The World in the Second Half of the 17th Century

Zagan

Donor
The World in the Second Half of the 17th Century

World5_Thumb.png

Full Map Link


Legend:

CAPITALS: Fully Independent Countries
Title Case: Countries and Territories in various degrees of dependency to other Countries
Peoples Names instead of Country Names (ex. INDIANS): Lack of a unified Country / Nation State; either several small States or no State Organization whatsoever.
Lighter Colours: Claimed Territories, definitely in the country's sphere, but not yet incorporated because of either (1) not reached yet (Arctic ice, deserts, jungles) or (2) not conquered yet from the natives.
Not shown: The Arctic (above ~74° N, uncontested Scandinavian), the Antarctic (below ~56° S, uncontested German) and various small islands (too small for this scale).
Some borders are only approximations.
EW1
= the First European War (1641 - 1645)
* = OTL Name
Sinai Canal (*Suez Canal) is opened for shipping (mostly Romanian, Italian, German and Egyptian).

1. Slovakia
2. Armenia
3. Georgia
4. Levant
5. Ethiopia
6. Pamir (claimed by Persia)
7. Cambodgia
8. New France
9. French Claim in North America before EW1 (the Great Lakes + Saint Laurent + Atlantic Labrador Watershed)
10. Added French Claim in North America after EW1 (up to the new Scandinavian Claim limit of 54° N, with access to the *James Bay)
11. French Claim in North America ceded to Scandinavia after EW1 (Labrador North of 54° N)
12. Terranova & Acadia, ceded by France to Britain after EW1
13. Added British Claim in North America after EW1 (up to the Mississippi)
14. Iberian territories ceded to Britain after EW1 (Florida up to the Mississippi, Lesser Antilles as a Lease, Iberian India, Iberian East Indies)
15. Spanish Claim disputed by Scandinavia (Pacific coast of N *California and S *Oregon)
16. Chinese Claim (*Sakhalin), disputed by Russia and Scandinavia
17. Japanese Claim (Ezo / *Hokkaido), disputed by Russia and Scandinavia
18. Scandinavian Kamchatka (south of 60° N), disputed by Russia
19. Egyptian Claim in the Sahara
20. It seems that I forgot to label some small Territories: French Senegal, British Gambia, Spanish Bissau, French Guinea, British Siera Leone, British Goad Coast (*Ghana), Spanish Guinea, Spanish Mozambique, British Claim of Formosa (*Taiwan), German Claims in Melanesia (*Fiji, etc), some other small islands belonging to Spain, Britain, Germany, etc.

European Colonial Possessions:
Spain - All American mainland (part of it only Claims) and adjacent islands from the Antarctic Ocean to California, Galapagos, Greater Antilles, Macaronesia, NW Africa (part of it only Claims), Bissau, Spanish Guinea, Angola, Mozambique, Philippines, Micronesia;
France - New France (part of it only Claims);
Britannia - British America, including Bermuda, Newfoundland & Florida (Claims up to the Mississippi), Lesser Antilles (99 years Lease from Spain), Gambia, Sierra Leone, Gold Coast, Capeland, British India (Claims all of India), British East Indies (Claims all of the East Indies and Malaya), Formosa (Claim), small islands in the Southern Atlantic Ocean and Indian Ocean, etc (some of them only Claims);
Germany - All of the World South of 40° S (except South America), all of Australia, Papua, *New Zealand, Melanesia, Polinesia, Madagascar, most of the Pacific South of the Equator, etc (some of them only Claims);
Scandinavia - All of the World North of 60° N (except British Shetland and Northern European Russia, both of them coveted nonetheless), North America and the Pacific North of 54° N, North American Pacific Coast all the way to *Portland, the Aleutines, Kamcheatka (disputed by Russia), etc (some of them only Claims);
Italy - Italian Africa (down to 16° N, most of it only Claimed);
Russia - Russian Siberia (all the way to Okhotsk, parts of it only Claimed);
Sarmatia - Out of this business (at least for now), busy with pacifying the Cossacks and the Tatars from the South-Eastern parts of the Country;
Romania - Asia Minor, Sinope, Syria, Lebanon, Holy Land (with Jerusalem), Sinai, Canal Zone, Socotra (a little later), Turkey (Protectorate), Levant (Protectorate).


Next: Chapter 64 (the last from Part One)
 
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Ryan

Donor
how much of that territory is Scandinavia going to actually keep? because I find it hard to believe that they have the resources and manpower to hold onto it, especially when its disputed with countries that have a far greater ability to project power into said regions than they do.
 

Zagan

Donor
how much of that territory is Scandinavia going to actually keep? because I find it hard to believe that they have the resources and manpower to hold onto it, especially when its disputed with countries that have a far greater ability to project power into said regions than they do.
1. That territory is smaller that it seems to be, because of the scale distodtion of the Mercator projection.

2. Most of it is frozen wilderness and thus quite unattractive.

3. In OTL around ten million people live there even today.

4. They will not keep all of it, but will not spoil the fun further here.

5. Only Russia, France and Spain are bordering Scandinavian colonies. Britain, Germany, Sarmatia, Italy and Romania have no access to those lands anyway, because of the other Powers territories.

6. Britain supports Scandinavia against Spain and France and Germany and Sarmatia against Russia.

7. Spain still has 4 to 5 times as much territory and much valuable.
 

Zagan

Donor
Chapter 64 (last of Part One) will be ready tonight (CET).
Until then, do you want some tables with population and other data?

And, are there any more questions about the World map (so we could move on)?
 
What would be (approximatively, I know it can't be precisely mesured) the balance of military power in Europe? Which is the strongest nation and who are the weakest?
 

Zagan

Donor
What would be (approximatively, I know it can't be precisely mesured) the balance of military power in Europe? Which is the strongest nation and who are the weakest?
Very interesting question!

Let me try a guesstimate...
Setting the strongest to 100 points of military strength (arbitrary units), separate Army and Navy...
Evaluating...
Showing results (as of 1650):

... Country ...... Army .. Navy
.1. Germany ....... 100 .... 43
.2. France ......... 72 .... 39
.3. Spain .......... 62 .... 41
.4. Romania ........ 55 .... 19
.5. Russia ......... 52 ..... 2
.6. Sarmatia ....... 36 .... 12
.7. Scandinavia .... 25 .... 31
.8. Italy .......... 21 .... 24
.9. Britain ........ 16 ... 100
10. Greece ......... 10 .... 16
11. Armenia ......... 9 ..... 1
12. Georgia ......... 5 ..... 1
13. Slovakia ........ 1 ..... 0

And the neighbouring Muslim Powers...
.1. Persia ......... 66 .... 22
.2. Egypt .......... 39 .... 17
.3. Arabia ......... 18 .... 14
.4. Morocco ......... 6 ..... 4
.5. Levant .......... 6 ..... 0
.6. Turkey .......... 5 ..... 0
.7. Berbers ......... 2 ..... 0


Done.
 
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hi, just (re)discovered your timeline. Pretty good and comprehensive (if ASB). I just have few questions
1) What happened to the Mughal empire in India? Your POD date 1601 was the peak of their Golden Age and the OTL decline after 1708 is almost certainly butterflied.
2) What became of the Ming dynasty? (seeeing as they were still in power at the time of POD and only collapsed in 1644)
3) What about Japan, could simple butterfly effect mean no bakufu or possibly even a second attempt at Korea?
4) What about the Deccan as their fate is linked to that of the Mughals?
5) hmm.. earlier creation of nation states and other such effects must mean significantly more international trade something that would greatly affect the mercantile states in South India and South-East Asia as well as East Asia and East Africa. the OTL spice trade as well as the cotton textile trade (up till the late 18th century indian textile industry had a near monopoly in africa and europe, what are the effects of a significantly greater demand?)
6) and last of all the british/spanish holdings shouldn't amount to more than tiny islands and small outposts (barely more than a fort and it's environs.) The vast swathes are nigh on impossible in this time period.
whew...wrote a lot more than i intended, anyway really like your timeline and hope Asia does better than OTL.
 
6) and last of all the british/spanish holdings shouldn't amount to more than tiny islands and small outposts (barely more than a fort and it's environs.) The vast swathes are nigh on impossible in this time period.
I think it's more like how Spain and Portugal arbitrarily split the New World between themselves before it was completely discovered in OTL. A more de jure than de facto situation.
 

Zagan

Donor
hi, just (re)discovered your timeline. Pretty good and comprehensive (if ASB). I just have few questions
1) What happened to the Mughal empire in India? Your POD date 1601 was the peak of their Golden Age and the OTL decline after 1708 is almost certainly butterflied.
2) What became of the Ming dynasty? (seeeing as they were still in power at the time of POD and only collapsed in 1644)
3) What about Japan, could simple butterfly effect mean no bakufu or possibly even a second attempt at Korea?
4) What about the Deccan as their fate is linked to that of the Mughals?
5) hmm.. earlier creation of nation states and other such effects must mean significantly more international trade something that would greatly affect the mercantile states in South India and South-East Asia as well as East Asia and East Africa. the OTL spice trade as well as the cotton textile trade (up till the late 18th century indian textile industry had a near monopoly in africa and europe, what are the effects of a significantly greater demand?)
6) and last of all the british/spanish holdings shouldn't amount to more than tiny islands and small outposts (barely more than a fort and it's environs.) The vast swathes are nigh on impossible in this time period.
whew...wrote a lot more than i intended, anyway really like your timeline and hope Asia does better than OTL.

Hi, welcome back.
Nothing is even remotely ASB here. You are probably mistaken.

1. The Mughals are just fine. I just placed them together with the other Indian States. The British claim all of India and are slowly encroaching it (Britain has now all the OTL European holdings in India).
2. The Ming Dynasty is not ok, but it is still (barely) holding. It is allied with Russia against the Manchus. Interesting times lie forward.
3. Japan has some internal trouble and is not invading Korea any more. Korea is doing good (see the contributions provided by @zeppelinair).
4. Nothing special about Deccan.
5. Correct. Effects? The Europeans are trying harder to impose their domination, with mixed results.
6. Blatantly false. You have probably looked at a bad OTL map of 1650-1700 or at earlier OTL map. In reality, in OTL 1650-1700, the situation was approximately like in my map.

Some parts of Asia will do (way) better, some the same and some even worse. Africa, Australia, Oceania and the Americas will fare worse than in OTL though.

Sorry about the harsh remarks. Don't take it as a personal attack, please.
 
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Zagan

Donor
I think it's more like how Spain and Portugal arbitrarily split the New World between themselves before it was completely discovered in OTL. A more de jure than de facto situation.
De jure but not de facto is shown with lighter colours.
 
ehh.. no offense taken. About (5) i meant that this was proto-industrialisation era in the deccan as well as the indus and ganges valley regions. Significantly greater demand stemming for greater population growth+urbanisation+literacy in Europe (especially from Romania) = far more economic growth in India due to the expanded market for textiles,spices and handicrafts; Especially boosting literacy, urbanisation and average wealth as well as a far larger and influential merchant class might mean some interesting developments in the Tamil trade republics. In fact we might even see mercantilist theories coming out from there along with a big domestic market.
The creation of a middle class of sorts both in Europe and India a century ahead of time would very interesting to see since for all purposes society has progressed a century ahead of time.
 

Zagan

Donor
ehh.. no offense taken. About (5) i meant that this was proto-industrialisation era in the deccan as well as the indus and ganges valley regions. Significantly greater demand stemming for greater population growth+urbanisation+literacy in Europe (especially from Romania) = far more economic growth in India due to the expanded market for textiles,spices and handicrafts; Especially boosting literacy, urbanisation and average wealth as well as a far larger and influential merchant class might mean some interesting developments in the Tamil trade republics. In fact we might even see mercantilist theories coming out from there along with a big domestic market.
The creation of a middle class of sorts both in Europe and India a century ahead of time would very interesting to see since for all purposes society has progressed a century ahead of time.
Correct.
My knowledge about India (and in general of the rest of Asia east of Persia) is quite scarce. I am afraid I cannot say anything of value about that, unless I dedicate a great amount of time for studying it.
But, since you seem to be much more knowledgeable than myself in regard to pre-modern India, you may write a contribution yourself if you like and submit it to me. I will be grateful.
Thanks.
 
Table #9. Population of Romania

Zagan

Donor
Population of Romania
(and other data) from the 1602, 1625, 1640 and 1652 Censuses


Census 1602-1652.png

Columns:
- Administrative Division (Province / Autonomous Province / Colony / Protected Territory) Number;
- Administrative Division Romanian Name;
- Administrative Division English Name;
- Administrative Division Capital TTL Romanian Name;
- Administrative Division Capital OTL Name (if it exists in OTL);
- Administrative Division Area in km2;
- Administrative Division Area in sqmi;
- Number of Județe in the Administrative Division (Second Tier Administrative Divisions);
- Groups of 4 Columns for the Censuses corresponding to different Years (so far 1602, 1625, 1640, 1652):
--- T - Total Population of the Administrative Division in thousands;
--- R - Romanian Population of the Administrative Division in thousands;
--- P - Proportion of the Romanian Population in percentage;
--- Minorities - Important Ethnic or Religious Minorities in the Administrative Division (having more than 6% of the Total Population) and various notes stating changes in ownership (in whole or in part) of the Administrative Division.

Totals:
1. Romania Proper (Internal Provinces), internationally de jure recognized as such;
2. Romania de facto (including the Autonomous Provinces, de jure considered to be Protectorates);
3. Romania de facto plus the Romanian Colonies (all the territory under Romanian Administration);
4. Romania de facto plus the Romanian Colonies and the Protected Territories.

Markings in the Number Column:
[None] - Internal Province (30);
! - Administrative Division disolved (its Number was never reassigned, Thessaly and Pannonia);
* - Autonomous Province (Dalmatia, Croatia, Hungary, Bosphorus);
# - Colony (8);
@ - Dynastic Union (Greece);
#@ - Colony of a Dynastic Union State (Greek Cilicia);
& - Protectorate (Turkey, Levant, Armenia, Georgia, Slovakia);
#& - Colony of a Protected State (Levantine Arabia Petraea, Armenian Cappadocia);
Total - Totals (duh).

Romanian Population Percentages in Red: Less than 50% of the Total Population of the Administrative Division.

Note: The Table may be difficult to read at small screen resolution. Just click it to enlarge at full size.
 
Table #10. European Countries and their Dependencies in 1652

Zagan

Donor
European Countries and their Dependencies in 1652
Capitals, Area, Population, Ethnicity, Religion


Countries 1652.png

Notes:
1. The Table may be difficult to read at small screen resolution. Just click it to enlarge at full size.
2. Some data are approximative (mind the significant digits).
3. Some related ethnicities are grouped together.
4. Orthodox Christians include those in full communion with Constantinople - Greek, Romanian and Russian.
5. Other Christians include those not Protestant and not in communion with either Rome or Constantinople - Armenian, Georgian, Coptic, Eastern, etc.
6. Others include Pagans, Hindus, East Asian Religions, etc and later Atheists, Agnostics, etc.
7. Some areas data are missing because the actual extension of that colony is unclear.
8. Some population data are missing because no one has counted the inhabitants yet.
9. The religion percentages for the colonies without censuses are rough approximations only.

If anything is still unclear in this table (or in the previous one for that matter), feel free to ask as usual.


EDIT: I have forgotten about French Africa (Senegal & Guinee); Capital: Dakar; Ethnicities: Africans, French; Religion: Others (Pagans) 90%, Catholics 10%.
 
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Zagan

Donor
Huh, Sarmatia is pretty weak compared to it's total population. And Persia is stronger than most European countries.
And in OTL, Russia is stronger than Indonesia, despite having a much smaller population. There is no correlation.

Persia is at its Zenith now. It won't last long.
 
I'm pretty surprised that the European countries received the declaration of Romania being the Roman Empire so harshly. After all, back when the Byzantine Empire claimed to be Rome, the European nations that didn't approve simply ignored this claim.

Why was their reaction so strong?

Anyway, my predictions for the future of Romania are:

"Roman realms" or something like that: countries which are in permanent personal union under Mihai's descendants and have close economic ties, but have separate governmental structures. Currently consist of Romania and Greece (and Constantinople), but more may be created in the future (Croatia?). Romania will clearly be the strongest of these realms.

The Constantiople city-state will be a sort of royal capital for all of these Roman realms, where the monarch will reside. It's a neutral location between Romania and Greece (plus of course it's the New Rome and historical Roman capital!). However, the capital of Romania will remain in Mihailia Iulia.

The Greek capital might be moved from Athens to Smyrna: the latter city is probably bigger and more important?

Romania, and European nations in general, will continue nibbling at the Islamic world. While complete expulsion/conversion of Muslims is not realistic, discriminatory policies against Muslims in the Middle East will be implemented. Higher tax rates and restrictions on mosque building, for example.
 
Romania, and European nations in general, will continue nibbling at the Islamic world. While complete expulsion/conversion of Muslims is not realistic, discriminatory policies against Muslims in the Middle East will be implemented. Higher tax rates and restrictions on mosque building, for example.

Take a page from the Ottoman's own book and create a version of the Jizya tax on Muslim subjects. Im sure there might be a Romanian word that would correspond to Jizya.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
 

Zagan

Donor
1. I'm pretty surprised that the European countries received the declaration of Romania being the Roman Empire so harshly. After all, back when the Byzantine Empire claimed to be Rome, the European nations that didn't approve simply ignored this claim.
Why was their reaction so strong?

Anyway, my predictions for the future of Romania are:

2. "Roman realms" or something like that: countries which are in permanent personal union under Mihai's descendants and have close economic ties, but have separate governmental structures. Currently consist of Romania and Greece (and Constantinople), but more may be created in the future (Croatia?). Romania will clearly be the strongest of these realms.

3. The Constantiople city-state will be a sort of royal capital for all of these Roman realms, where the monarch will reside. It's a neutral location between Romania and Greece (plus of course it's the New Rome and historical Roman capital!). However, the capital of Romania will remain in Mihailia Iulia.

4. The Greek capital might be moved from Athens to Smyrna: the latter city is probably bigger and more important?

5. Romania, and European nations in general, will continue nibbling at the Islamic world.

6. While complete expulsion/conversion of Muslims is not realistic, discriminatory policies against Muslims in the Middle East will be implemented. Higher tax rates and restrictions on mosque building, for example.

1. It had already been decided in the Great Powers Council (a sort of proto-UN for the powerful European countries) that all of Europe is the spiritual and cultural descendent of the Roman Empire and no country (Germany, Russia, Italy, Greece or Romania) may claim exclusive Roman continuity.
Plus, more importantly, Iuila had been acclaimed as Imperatrice (Empress) in public in Rome and Iulia had hinted that all of the Eastern Roman Empire should be Romanian (and this includes parts of Italy and North Africa).
And, the "Byzantine Empire" was the uninterrupted continuation of the Roman Empire.
But the real issue here was the increasing power of Romania. If all of the smaller states around Romania (Greece + Cilicia, Dalmatia + Croatia, Hungary, Slovakia, Armenia + Cappadocia, Georgia) and the Islamic Middle East (Turkey, Levant, mayble later even Arabia, Egypt, etc) got actually completely unified in a new "Roman Empire", that state would probably became the most powerful in Europe. And nobody wanted this. One of the core principles of the Great Powers Council was the Balance of Power.

2. Something like this. It is currently called the Empire of the Orient.

3. Correct. Almost reading my mind. :)

4. Correct. When any possible threat from Turkey dissappears in the collective psyche of the Greeks, not only in reality.

5. Correct.

6. Correct for the European-held Middle East. In Europe however, there will be no Muslims quite soon.


Take a page from the Ottoman's own book and create a version of the Jizya tax on Muslim subjects. Im sure there might be a Romanian word that would correspond to Jizya.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

Sure. Strangely, we don't have a word for Jizya. Romania has never been Muslim territory, but only under Ottoman suzerainty, so no Jizya, only Tribute, annually paid by the state to the Ottoman Suzerain Power.
 
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