"Io Mihailŭ, Împĕratul Românilor" - A Michael the Brave Romania Wank

[Sir Omega]

What is the Greek sentiment towards Romania (especially towards them holding a not negligible part that were a part of the Greek (or Byzantine) Heartland and both probably see themselves as the true inheritor of the Roman Imperial Purple? The Greeks nearly certainly don't have the hard power to dispute it, but still...
Also, what is the balance of Naval forces in the Black Sea, Adriatic Sea and the East Mediterranean Sea? (I presume that with the exception of some slave ships and the odd pirate, the Red Sea is more ore less under their complete control).

 

[Summoner]

Also, what is the balance of Naval forces in the Black Sea, Adriatic Sea and the East Mediterranean Sea? (I presume that with the exception of some slave ships and the odd pirate, the Red Sea is more ore less under their complete control).

I also am curious about this and am wondering about Persian naval power in this TL. Sounds like they were decimated in the recent war by Romanian naval superiority. Here they are on the Black Sea, presumably with control of ports like Trabezond and Batumi

 

[Zagan]

What is the Greek sentiment towards Romania (especially towards them holding a not negligible part that were a part of the Greek (or Byzantine) Heartland and both probably see itself as the true inheritor of the Roman Imperial Purple?

With the exception of a few extremists on both sides, the relations between the Romanians and the Greeks are between good and very good. Separate States with a common Monarch seems to work very well for Romania and Greece, at least for now.

Also, what is the balance of Naval forces in the Black Sea, Adriatic Sea and the East Mediterranean Sea? (I presume that with the exception of some slave ships and the odd pirate, the Red Sea is more ore less under their complete control).

Very interesting question. While I have not thought about that in depth, let me provide a quick estimate.

Blach Sea: Romania 60%, Sarmatia 30%, Russia 8%, Armenia 1%, Georgia 1%.

Adriatic Sea: Italy 50%, Germany 30%, Romania 20%.

Eastern Mediterranian Sea: Romania + Greece 60%, Germany 20%, Italy 20%.

Red Sea: Romania 90%, Arabia 2%, Pirates 8%.

Indian Ocean: Britain 60%, Germany 20%, Persia 10%, Romania 4%, Locals 1%, Other Europeans 1%, Pirates 4%.

 

[Zagan]

I also am curious about this and am wondering about Persian naval power in this TL. Sounds like they were decimated in the recent war by Romanian naval superiority. Here they are on the Black Sea, presumably with control of ports like Trabezond and Batumi

1. See the answer above.

2. Romania managed to "decimate" the Persian fleet only with the invaluable help of the Germans.

3. Oh, but the Persians are not on "the Black Sea". Armenia and Georgia are not under Persian occupation, just some rather light influence and protection (somewhat similar to Cuza's Romania vs. the Ottoman Empire). So there isn't and there can't be any Persian fleet on the Black Sea.

 

[idumea]

Romania did well during the war, but they are now thoroughly exhausted to the point of government collapse and could be heavily overextended. Why do I get the feeling Persia won't wait too long for the next round...

The Holy Land is close to being Eretz Yisrael (although only half of Idumea and no chance of Suez or the Nile); if the Jews manage to cement their control they could seek to expand east to the Tigris for that nearly full Mosaic promised land.

 

[Sir Omega]

Romania did well during the war, but they are now thoroughly exhausted to the point of government collapse and could be heavily overextended. Why do I get the feeling Persia won't wait too long for the next round...

The Persians were also badly mauled, and financially near bankrupt. They will also need a long-ish period to replenish and consolidate, especially as its other neighbors (like, say, the Russians) may raise a covetous eye at their holdings (Britannia probably won't say no, either, to some border rearranging), especially that they are now at their weakest and their allies had been grinded under under christian boots.

 

[Zagan]

Romania did well during the war, but they are now thoroughly exhausted to the point of government collapse and could be heavily overextended. Why do I get the feeling Persia won't wait too long for the next round...

See @Sir Omega's answer below and my comments to it.

The Persians were also badly mauled, and financially near bankrupt. They will also need a long-ish period to replenish and consolidate, especially as its other neighbors (like, say, the Russians) may raise a covetous eye at their holdings (Britannia probably won't say no, either, to some border rearranging), especially that they are now at their weakest and their allies had been grinded under under christian boots.

Oh, Russia, sure. They couldn't or didn't want to help Romania in the last war due to... issues (no spoilers here, we'll have a chapter about Russia), but that may change later on.

Britannia does not have a border with Persia (yet). On the east shore of the Indus are the Mughals and other Indian States. The British holdings in India are so far limited to some littoral territories.

The fact that Persia is the only one of the allies who "won" is indeed discouraging. The Levant was annihilated, Egypt lost land and was made into a Protectorate and Arabia is kept in line by that nasty Romanian garrison in Jeddah, dangerously close to Mecca.

The Holy Land is close to being Eretz Yisrael (although only half of Idumea and no chance of Suez or the Nile); if the Jews manage to cement their control they could seek to expand east to the Tigris for that nearly full Mosaic promised land.

Isn't that strange Eretz Israel map circulating on the Internet actually a conspiracy of sorts?

And they have half of Idumea? Half of... YOU?? Sorry, I don't understand, there has to be an error here.

 

[Falkanner]

And they have half of Idumea? Half of... YOU?? Sorry, I don't understand, there has to be an error here.

A quick search leads me to believe he's talking about Edom.

 

[Zagan]

A quick search leads me to believe he's talking about Edom.

Oh, silly me, I didn't know about that. Sorry, @idumea.

 

[idumea]

How embarassing, of course Edom is the right name. Apologies for the confusion!

Eretz is mostly a conspiracy theory based on a very generous reading of 'a land between two rivers', but did form a current of Zionist thought up into the 1950s especially when it was all British ruled and theoretically easier to obtain. TTL, what the Jews have achieved so far with the apparent blessing of the Orient imperial authorities is pretty miraculous for the 18th century, and its proponents won't be considered so crazy.

 

[Zagan]

1. How embarassing, of course Edom is the right name. Apologies for the confusion!

2. Eretz is mostly a conspiracy theory based on a very generous reading of 'a land between two rivers', but did form a current of Zionist thought up into the 1950s especially when it was all British ruled and theoretically easier to obtain.

3. TTL, what the Jews have achieved so far with the apparent blessing of the Orient imperial authorities is pretty miraculous for the 18th century, and its proponents won't be considered so crazy.

1. No apology needed.

2. Yes, that's the way I thought about it.

3. Let me set two things straight:

• Romania is not philojudaic, on the contrary, Jews are forbidden to settle in Romania Proper, etc, but it is extremely islamophobic, so the Jews are viewed as a useful tool in the fight against Islam. If that would backfire later remains to be seen.
• The Holy Land is not a Jewish Province or something. Romania still holds supreme authority in the Holy Land, despite its Jewish majority. However, there is a good degree of local ethnic and religious autonomy and the Jewish situation in the Romanian Holy Land is better than anywhere else in the whole World and better than at any other time since Emperor Hadrian.

I will have a separate chapter about the Jews later on.

 

[Zagan]

The Levantine Area after the Romanian-Islamic War (1712)
Syria, Lebanon, the Holy Land, the Sinai & the Canal Zone
(with an OTL Google Maps layer)

Link


Notes:

• Berenice (southern exclave of the Canal Zone) is not shown on this map.
• Old borders are shown in Pink.

[B]@idumea[/B]: You can better grasp the extent of the Holy Land's territory using this map, thanks to its lower scale and Google Maps layer. You can see, for example, that all of ancient Edom, Moab, Ammon and Philistine are inside the Holy Land's borders (at least according to this map).

 

[IceKiddu]

What exactly are Persia's plans now? Romania has Aden as a colony with good control over it, which means they plan to invade, probably to destroy Mecca, Arabia ending with the same fate as the Ottomans. This would weaken all muslim countries, possibly making the populations easier to convert. If this does happen Romania could have an easier job annexing Egypt, since they also support the copts the same way they did the jews (since they control Alexandria). This would leave Persia with no allies and then there's only a matter of time untill they get ripped apart. But I assume they could predict this might happen and with some time until Romania replenishes couldn't they try sonething to escape this fate. Maybe trying to become some kind of secular state în order to have a strnger populatin? They could even try to join the Empire of the Orient, but at the same level as Romania (or at lest close), Romania could be inclined to accept since they could get a dynastic union later

 

[Zagan]

What exactly are Persia's plans now? Romania has Aden as a colony with good control over it, which means they plan to invade, probably to destroy Mecca, Arabia ending with the same fate as the Ottomans. This would weaken all muslim countries, possibly making the populations easier to convert. If this does happen Romania could have an easier job annexing Egypt, since they also support the copts the same way they did the jews (since they control Alexandria). This would leave Persia with no allies and then there's only a matter of time untill they get ripped apart. But I assume they could predict this might happen and with some time until Romania replenishes couldn't they try sonething to escape this fate. Maybe trying to become some kind of secular state în order to have a strnger populatin? They could even try to join the Empire of the Orient, but at the same level as Romania (or at lest close), Romania could be inclined to accept since they could get a dynastic union later

First of all, a warm: Welcome to the Alternate History Board!

Then, are you per chance Romanian? (since your first post is in my Romania-Wank thread; you don't have to answer, we value privacy around here)


And now, to answer your question(s)...

1. Persia had tried to sell itself as a secular country (with a Muslim majority) prior to the war and they gained little from it. The Europeans did not accept them as their equals (Persia was only granted Observer status at the Great Powers Council) and Romania still coveted Muslim lands. Finally they had enough and entered the Islamic Alliance with Arabia, Egypt and the Levant to try and stop the Romanian advance in Muslim Lands. And then the war came and all Muslim states but Persia were severely beaten.

2. Despite its greater population, Egypt would be easier to annex than Arabia due to several reasons:
- the presence of the Coptic minority in Egypt (at least 25% in the 18th century) as you have noticed;
- the fact that Egypt is already a Protectorate while Arabia is fully independent;
- the presence of hostile Christian neighbours on all its borders (Romania, Italy, Ethiopia);
- the Muslim holy sites (Medina and Mecca) seriously complicate matters since any Christian occupation / destruction of these cities would enrage all Muslims.

3. Besides Romania, Persia has to worry about Russia and possibly the Moghul Empire as well. They may try to play their neighbours against one another or join them in an alliance as you said.


Anyway, I am not going to tell you more here because that might become unwanted spoilers.

Just wait for the next chapters and the fate of Persia and the rest of this Alternate World will slowly unfold in front of you!

 

[Zagan]

The "boring" Century of Peace (1653 - 1765) will soon come to an end (in 2-3 chapters maximum).

In anticipation to the Third European War (1765 - 17xx), I reviewed the earlier chapters and made a few changes to chapter II.2. European Colonialism, mainly for the sake of internal self-consistency. If you want to, you can review it now.

Until then, it seems appropriate to provide a follow up to the World Map from this post (which covered the period 1650 - 1700).

The World Before the Third European War

Full Map Link


Legend:

• Lighter Colours: Claimed Territories, definitely in the country's sphere, but not yet incorporated because of either (1) not reached yet (Arctic ice, deserts, jungles) or (2) not conquered yet from the natives.
• Not shown: The Arctic (above ~74° N, uncontested Scandinavian), the Antarctic (below ~56° S, uncontested German) and various small islands (too small for this scale).

Notes:

• Some borders are only approximations.
• Some pre-war changes in the Middle East are not shown on this map (would be spoilers).

Key: See the lower-left corner of the map.


European Possessions:

Spain

• Macaronesia (Azores, Madeira, Canaries, Cape Verde, integral part of Spain)
• Mauretania (NW Africa)
• Empire of the Americas (American mainland and islands from the Magellan Strait to California)
• African Colonies (Bissau, Spanish Guinea, Angola)

France

• New France
• African Colonies (Senegal, French Guinea, Ivory Coast, French Congo)

Britannia

• British North America (including Newfoundland, Bermuda, Bahamas, integral part of Britannia)
• Lesser Antilles (unilaterally annexed)
• African Colonies (Gambia, Sierra Leone, Gold Coast)
• Capeland (Cape Colony)
• British India (including Ceylon)
• British East Indies
• Various small islands in the Southern Atlantic Ocean and Indian Ocean (some uninhabited)

Germany

• All of the World South of 40°S (except South America)
• Südreich (Australia, Papua, *New Zealand, Melanesia, Polinesia)
• Philippines (including Micronesia)
• Madagascar (including the Mascarenes)
• German Africa (Mosambik)
• Feuerland

Sarmatia

• Sarmatian Guinea

Romania

• Middle East Dependencies (Asia Minor, Syria, Lebanon, Holy Land, Sinai, Canal Zone)
• Aden (including Socotra)
• Erythrea
• Romanian Somalia
• Egypt (Protectorate)
• Somalia (Protectorate)
• Romanian East Africa (including Zanzibar)

Scandinavia

• All of the World North of 60°N (except British Shetland and Northern European Russia)
• North America and the Pacific North of 54°N
• North American Pacific Coast south of 54°N, the Aleutines, Kamcheatka, etc

Russia

• Russian Siberia

Italy

• Italian Africa (down to 16°N, the Mediterranian coast integral part of Italy);

Notes:

• Greek Cicilia is not a colony anymore but an integral part of Greece.
• Armenian Cappadocia is not a colony anymore but an integral part of Armenia.
• Armenia and Georgia are Persian Protectorates.

.

 

[Deleted member 97083]

And the ERE is restored.

You either die a Wallachia or live long enough to see yourself become the Roman Empire.

 

[Zagan]

About the previous map, but in a separate post...

• As you can easily see, it's a Mercator projection or, to be more specific, a Web Mercator, although the difference is negligible at this scale. The base map is Google Maps, with the Google Maps Layer hidden before exporting to PNG.

• The form factor is 1:2 because the map is cut vertically at about 74°N and 56°S.

• The horizontal cut is not at the OTL 180° meridian but through the Bering Strait, having all of Asia on the right side of the map. This is because in TTL, the meridians are numbered differently.

TTL Longitude

While the parallels are counted as in OTL (from 90°N = the North Pole to 0° = the Equator to 90°S = the South Pole), the meridians are counted from 0° to 360°, without an East / West designation.

Greater numbers are Eastwards, smaller numbers are Westwards. TTL Meridians are in Black, OTL Meridians are in Red.

The 0° (168°40'W) or the Date Line Meridian passes through the Bering Strait (the leftmost line on the map).

The 168°40' (0°) meridian passes through Greenwich.

The 180° or the Central Meridian (11°20'E) passes through the heart of Europe (Scandinavia, Germany, Italy).

The 348°40' (180°) meridian is our antimeridian.

The 360° (168°40'W) is identical with the 0° meridian (the rightmost line on the map).


To convert from TTL Longitude to OTL Longitude:
1. Add 11°20'.
2a. If less than 180°, substract from 180° and append W (OTL Western Hemishpere).
2b. If between 180° and 360°, substract 180° and append E (OTL Eastern Hemisphere).
2c. If greater then 360°, substract 360° then substract the result from 180° and append W (OTL Western Hemisphere).

Example 1: The vertical border between Mexico and British North America (73°50').
1. Add 11°20', result 85°10'.
2a. Substract from 180°, result 94°50'W.

Example 2: The border between Mauretania and Libya (174°).
1. Add 11°20', result 185°20'.
2b. Substract 180°, result 5°20'E.

Example 3: The border between Libya and Egypt (194°).
1. Add 11°20', result 205°20'.
2b. Substract 180°, result 25°20'E.

Example 4: The vertical border between Russia and Scandinavian Siberia (230°40').
1. Add 11°20', result 242°.
2b. Substract 180°, result 62°E.


To convert from OTL Longitude to TTL Longitude:
1a. If Western, substract from 180°.
1b. If Eastern, add 180°.
2. Substract 11°20' (and, if negative, add 360°).

Example 1: New York (74°W)
1a. Substract from 180°, result 106°.
2. Substract 11°20', result 94°40'.

Example 2: Paris (2°21'E)
1b. Add 180°, result 182°21'.
2. Substract 11°20', result 171°1'.

Example 3: Jerusalem (35°13'E).
1b. Add 180°, result 215°13'.
2. Substract 11°20', result 203°53'.


I hope that a little maths now and then isn't excessively boring and does not chase my readers away.


P.S. Just in case someone wonders...
Question: It's too early for advanced chronometres for precise longitude measurements. How were they able to determine the longitude of the Bering Strait with that precision?
Answer: They got lucky. When a Scandinavian ship wintered at the Bering Strait, there happened to be a Moon eclipse and the exact longitude could be obtained with an elementary astronomical calculation when they arrived back home!

 

[Karakorum]

Question: It's too early for advanced chronometres for precise longitude measurements. How were they able to determine the longitude of the Bering Strait with that precision?
Answer: They got lucky. When a Scandinavian ship wintered at the Bering Strait, there happened to be a Moon eclipse and the exact longitude could be obtained with an elementary astronomical calculation when they arrived back home!

I was about to ask if you knew of a specific lunar eclipse over the Bering Strait in the given time span, then I realized that lunar eclipses are far more common than solar eclipses and can be seen from virtually anywhere on the side of Earth facing away from the sun, so it is not so unlikely for such to happen! Quite ingenious really, and I am interested in who will eventually develop a chronometer that works on ships with precision (the British again?). At least such a definition for longitude makes far more sense than the rather arbitrary Greenwich Prime Meridian OTL uses.

 

[Karakorum]

My apologies if you addressed this an earlier post, but is that purple India a united country? I recall reading that the Mughal Empire experienced a resurgence of sorts, but was it really enough to establish it again as the only other power in India besides Britain? Have the Marathas been butterflied away? Also, I am interested in how exactly the Mughals came together again. Was there an Aurangzeb in TTL who was better at reduckng unrest and creating a lasting centralized Indian state than OTL Aurangzeb? Anyway, I eagerly anticipate Third European War!

 

[Zagan]

1. I was about to ask if you knew of a specific lunar eclipse over the Bering Strait in the given time span, then I realized that lunar eclipses are far more common than solar eclipses and can be seen from virtually anywhere on the side of Earth facing away from the sun, so it is not so unlikely for such to happen!

2. Quite ingenious really, and I am interested in who will eventually develop a chronometer that works on ships with precision (the British again?).

3. At least such a definition for longitude makes far more sense than the rather arbitrary Greenwich Prime Meridian OTL uses.

1. Correct. It would have been actually odd to NOT a have a lunar eclipse at the Bering Strait in the span of a century. The only coincidence was the presence of a Scandinavian ship wintering in the area at the time of the eclipse.

2. It would probably be either the British or the Germans, because they are the only ones having colonies scattered all over the globe and thus the greatest need for accurately determining longitude. The other powers either do not have a maritime tradition or only travel in very well known waters like the Mediterranian Sea, the Red Sea and the Atlantic Ocean.

3. I believe the same, yes. In OTL the British could impose their Meridian because of their massive nautical dominance (which led to the best maps, etc). In TTL, the British hegemony is not so clear and, perhaps more importantly, there is the Great Powers Council which likes to standardize stuff.

4. My apologies if you addressed this an earlier post, but is that purple India a united country? I recall reading that the Mughal Empire experienced a resurgence of sorts, but was it really enough to establish it again as the only other power in India besides Britain?

5. Have the Marathas been butterflied away?

6. Also, I am interested in how exactly the Mughals came together again. Was there an Aurangzeb in TTL who was better at reduckng unrest and creating a lasting centralized Indian state than OTL Aurangzeb?

7. Anyway, I eagerly anticipate Third European War!

4. Well, not exactly. Yes, there is the Mughal Empire encompassing most of the purple blob (let's say the western and central cca. 60%), other polities who only nominally recognize the authority of the Emperor and some completely independent countries in the east. I coloured all of it the same because: (i) I did not want to have a lot of borders on such a big scale map, (ii) I was not sure where to place those borders, (iii) those borders were going to fluctuate wildly anyway, (iv) it was not very important at that time and (v) they all had an overwhelming "Indian" culture anyway.

5. No, but their power is less than in OTL, being squized between the Mughals and the British. They are a sort of Mughal nominal vassals for now.

6. Many times in history Empires have their ups and downs. There isn't always the case that decline, once started, cannot be reversed.

7. Me too.