Whe should Arthur marry?

  • Eleanor of Austria (b. 1498)

    Votes: 18 28.1%
  • Isabel of Austria (b. 1501)

    Votes: 6 9.4%
  • Isabel of Portugual (b. 1503)

    Votes: 25 39.1%
  • Other (please write in who and I'll add)

    Votes: 1 1.6%
  • Beatrice of Portugal (1504)

    Votes: 14 21.9%

  • Total voters
    64
  • Poll closed .
Yes to Denmark. Also, I think Beatrice of Portugal has as much chance of being selected as Arthur's bride as her big sister Isabella. She's only a year younger than Isabella and the Portuguese are at the height of their powers at this point. They may not want to waste their eldest daughter on a middle-weight power such as England.
Well, considering the OTL marriages of Manuel’s daughter and the fact who Maria on her deathbed felt the need to make Manuel promise to marry Isabella only to a King (or heir), I would say who Portugal can NOT be so difficult, specially when Kings or heirs in the right age range are very few and there are other, more prestigious, candidates for the same boys.
Marrying Beatrice (two years and half younger than him) would mean who Arthur would have no chance to secure an heir before he is 18 years old, and I can not see England being happy with that, specially when Eleanor of Austria is on the table (and being three years and half older than Arthur, she would be ready for childbirth as soon Arthur reached the legal age). I think who Eleanor is the likeliest candidate as bride, followed by her sister Isabella (and the one who do not marry Arthur will likely end in Portugal or Poland), with their portugueses cousins behind them as valuable but much less interesting matches

I’m sorry but is Mary not still daughter of Henry VII? Would she not still be engaged to Charles in 1506? What…
Yes, but Henry VII is already dead here and she is only aunt of the new King meaning who her value on the matrimonial market is extremely diminished if confronted to the OTL one (when she was still daughter of the King) as her dowry and connections are lower than OTL…
 
Well, considering the OTL marriages of Manuel’s daughter and the fact who Maria on her deathbed felt the need to make Manuel promise to marry Isabella only to a King (or heir), I would say who Portugal can NOT be so difficult, specially when Kings or heirs in the right age range are very few and there are other, more prestigious, candidates for the same boys.
Marrying Beatrice (two years and half younger than him) would mean who Arthur would have no chance to secure an heir before he is 18 years old, and I can not see England being happy with that, specially when Eleanor of Austria is on the table (and being three years and half older than Arthur, she would be ready for childbirth as soon Arthur reached the legal age). I think who Eleanor is the likeliest candidate as bride, followed by her sister Isabella (and the one who do not marry Arthur will likely end in Portugal or Poland), with their portugueses cousins behind them as valuable but much less interesting matches


Yes, but Henry VII is already dead here and she is only aunt of the new King meaning who her value on the matrimonial market is extremely diminished if confronted to the OTL one (when she was still daughter of the King) as her dowry and connections are lower than OTL…
If the Duke of York is able to get a few sons(which I suppose is a question given his otl record but by no means impossible),they might not be desperate enough to have the king father a child asap.
 
If the Duke of York is able to get a few sons(which I suppose is a question given his otl record but by no means impossible),they might not be desperate enough to have the king father a child asap.
It is NOT a question of being desperate, but still they need to secure the main line as the Duke of York and his children are only back-ups (and they have NOT Catherine’s Lancastrian blood). Plus Anne de la Tour herself is only six years older than Arthur jr (and she had no child in OTL) meaning who Henry’s eventual children will count little in choosing Arthur’s future bride as they will NOT yet be born


Beatrice was born in 1504, so she will be able to safely get pregnant around 1519/1520. Eleanor, being older than Arthur, will be ready for child-bearing by the time he's old enough for consummation, which will be in 1516. Same with Isabella of Austria.
Exactly, and that matter a lot, specially considering who the future Duchess of York, in the improbable case she is extremely lucky, would be able to have her first kid only in 1512
 
Marrying Beatrice (two years and half younger than him) would mean who Arthur would have no chance to secure an heir before he is 18 years old, and I can not see England being happy with that, specially when Eleanor of Austria is on the table (and being three years and half older than Arthur, she would be ready for childbirth as soon Arthur reached the legal age)
Depending on the circumstances and on how much of a formidable young man Arthur could grow into, it's entirely plausible for him to reign in his own right by 16. As for siring children, why would he have to bother to be 18 to start? There isn't a terrible rush for him to start having kids and getting married, but if the opportunity comes along, he can probably get married as young as 14. Now, it he marries young, then yes, it may be that they would prefer Eleanor or Isabella of Austria. But if he waits all the way until 18, I mean, Isabella and Beatrice of Portugal would each be about 14-16 themselves, easily able to start becoming pregnant. Marriage and sex are probably the very first adult things Arthur would be able to do before he can rule in his own right and there is precedent for that throughout English history. There is a lot of flexibility in his options and it could just come down to who Arthur himself likes best if he has a say in the matter. I do agree though that Eleanor is by far the best political option and that more than her slightly older age would weigh far more heavily in her being married to Arthur, followed by her sister.
 
Depending on the circumstances and on how much of a formidable young man Arthur could grow into, it's entirely plausible for him to reign in his own right by 16.
Henry VII’s will would establish the length of the regency for his grandson and is likely it will be until Arthur jr is 18 years old (as was for Henry VIII in OTL)
As for siring children, why would he have to bother to be 18 to start? There isn't a terrible rush for him to start having kids and getting married, but if the opportunity comes along, he can probably get married as young as 14. Now, it he marries young, then yes, it may be that they would prefer Eleanor or Isabella of Austria. But if he waits all the way until 18, I mean, Isabella and Beatrice of Portugal would each be about 14-16 themselves, easily able to start becoming pregnant. Marriage and sex are probably the very first adult things Arthur would be able to do before he can rule in his own right and there is precedent for that throughout English history. There is a lot of flexibility in his options and it could just come down to who Arthur himself likes best if he has a say in the matter. I do agree though that Eleanor is by far the best political option and that more than her slightly older age would weigh far more heavily in her being married to Arthur, followed by her sister.
He is the only child of his parents, only the second King of the Tudor dynasty and will have a long regency and nothing of this is good for the stability of the Kingdom. There is a reason for which Arthur sr was engaged and married off early in OTL (while political consideration and availability of girls of the right age and rank played a great part in Henry VIII’s engagement to a much younger girl, united to the fact who she was the best match available in Europe) and is likely who his son here will have the same need…Plus I can not see Manuel actively courting England while Philip was already doing that since before Arthur and Catherine‘s wedding and in any case the Habsburg girls are simply the more prestigious matches on the market
 
It is NOT a question of being desperate, but still they need to secure the main line as the Duke of York and his children are only back-ups (and they have NOT Catherine’s Lancastrian blood). Plus Anne de la Tour herself is only six years older than Arthur jr (and she had no child in OTL) meaning who Henry’s eventual children will count little in choosing Arthur’s future bride as they will NOT yet be born



Exactly, and that matter a lot, specially considering who the future Duchess of York, in the improbable case she is extremely lucky, would be able to have her first kid only in 1512
The Lancastrian blood is something nice to have rather than something that’s absolutely necessary. The Spanish didn’t even bother to bring up Lancastrian claims when they tried to invade England.
 
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The Lancastrian blood is something nice to have rather than something that’s absolutely necessary. The Spanish didn’t even bother to bring up Lancastrian claims when they tried to invade England.
At the point of Philip II‘s invasion the Tudor dynasty was fully established as Elizabeth had already a long reign and she was the fifth Tudor ruler and beside that her father and grandfather had eliminated most of the possible local pretenders. here the situation is well different and the Duke of York (and his future heirs) lack of good royal blood
 
At the point of Philip II‘s invasion the Tudor dynasty was fully established as Elizabeth had already a long reign and she was the fifth Tudor ruler and beside that her father and grandfather had eliminated most of the possible local pretenders. here the situation is well different and the Duke of York (and his future heirs) lack of good royal blood
The only ‘local’ pretenders left were the de la Poles and they were inferior to the Duke of York in both Lancastrian and Yorkist blood.It is important to note that the Spanish themselves thought that Henry Tudor and Elizabeth of York’s children had an unquestionable claim to the throne.That’s why they agreed to the match in the first place.
 
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The only ‘local’ pretenders left were the de la Poles and they were inferior to the Duke of York in both Lancastrian and Yorkist blood.It is important to note that the Spanish themselves thought that Henry Tudor and Elizabeth of York’s children had an unquestionable claim to the throne.That’s why they agreed to the match in the first place.
Why not have Henry marry into the poles?
 
Why not have Henry marry into the poles?
Because that would be useless, as the daughter had a lot of brothers and a very small dowry, if any…

Marguerite d’Angouleme would have been likely a better choice as Duchess of York, as while she is NOT an heiress, would receive a good French dowry and is the sister of the heir presumptive of France and has almost the same age of Henry of York
 
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Marguerite d’Angouleme would have been likely a better choice as Duchess of York, as while she is NOT an heiress, would receive a good French dowry and is the sister of the heir presumptive of France and has almost the same age of Henry of York
She's the sister to the king of France. She probably shouldn't be marrying second sons
 
She's the sister to the king of France. She probably shouldn't be marrying second sons
She is NOT sister of the King, but only of the heir presumptive meaning who she is simply a junior French princess until her brother inherit as Louis XII can have a living son until his death (who happened years after Marguerite’s marriage). In OTL she married a French prince of blood, NOT a ruler, meaning who a match with Henry of York would NOT be out of question for her as he is son of a King and prince of blood and second-in-line until his much younger nephew has a son of his own
 
1503
King Henry fell ill again in January of 1503. He died on February 11 [1] which just so happened to be his wife's birthday. He left his seven month grandson to succeed him. The new King Arthur was now the youngest monarch to take the English throne [2]. Despite mourning for King Henry, the three ladies immediately took control of the regency, unwilling to allow any member of the council, to usurp their position. They were right to worry as the late monarch's body was barely cold when the Duke of Buckingham tried to convince the regency council to make him Lord Protector, citing his right as the oldest male member of the royal family.

If King Henry had not anticipated this move, and the first royal Tudor was not known to be shortsighted, his mother certainly did. She made sure to bolster her standing with the other members of the council, and for those she could not, she simply sent her daughter-in-law, the much loved dowager queen. Buckingham found himself squaring off with Empson and Dudley who both owed their standing to the late king, the Marquess of Dorset who was quite loyal to his half-cousin, the Earl of Oxford, who was a Tudor man through and through, Richard Pole who was actually the eldest member of the royal relatives but did not have the high status to contend with Buckingham.

In the end, Margaret, Katherine, and Elizabeth were sworn in as regents. The late king's will stipulated that the regents would rule until King Arthur was eighteen-years-old. He also made a note that once the Duke of York was a man of eighteen, he would be co-regent as well. Considering there was no mention of Prince Henry becoming Lord Protector to his nephew (something he would constantly grumble about in his later life), it can be assumed that it was King Henry's wish to keep the three ladies in power for as long as his grandson was still too young to rule. Many suspect it was his way of keeping the power balanced and focused on the prince at hand. It worked for the most part. Although many media will play up the rivalry between the three ladies, it should be noted that while there were squabbles between Margaret and Katherine, Dowager Queen Elizabeth was quite skilled playing mediator as Prince Henry once put it, "Those who think my mother is meek and submissive are simpletons. For with only a few quiet words or a disapproving frown, my beloved mother can end an argument."

Once the Time of the Ladies had truly begun, they went to work on handling the negotiations of the remaining Tudor siblings' marriages. King James IV was concerned that with the new changes of management of England that his marriage to Princess Margaret would be delayed or forgotten about. He sent envoys to request that he have his bride by the end of the year. Knowing the history of Lady Margaret [3], King James was even shrewd enough to offer to make an official declaration that he would not consummate the marriage until his queen was older than fifteen. However, he wanted his new queen to live in Scotland to get familiar with her new country. As Margaret and James had already been married by proxy in January before the late king fell ill. It was agreed that Margaret would be sent to Scotland in August, allowing her to celebrate her nephew's first birthday.

As for Princess Mary, she was the seven year old aunt of the new king. At first there was suggestions of a more domestic match. They discuss having Mary marry Thomas Howard or Henry Stafford. However, all discussions comes to a grinding halt when they are offered a chance to have the youngest Tudor be a queen. King John of Dnemark had hoped for a Hapsburg bride for his son, the Prince Elect Christian. Upon learning about this, the English Ambassador of the imperial courts decides to make contact with the Danish envoy. Charles Somerset [4] met with the Danish envoy secretly, not wanting King Arthur's chances of getting a Hapsburg bride be hurt by poaching a possible husband for Isabel of Austria. Thankfully if Philip or Joanna or even the emperor himself knew about the discreet meetings they did not seem to mind all that much, perhaps because it saved them from wasting one of their archduchesses on a prince who might not be king. Still, to not ruffle any feathers, the negotiations were kept under wraps for the time being.

Then there was the matter of Prince Henry, the Duke of York. Anne de La Tour d'Auvergne was the heir of her father, gaining his titles and lands. This of course unnerved the French king so did not want the heir of the English king gaining a bigger foothold in France. He tried to give an alternate, the sister of the Count of Angouleme, Marguerite. He even tried to sweeten the pot by suggesting a dowry fitting a princess. It was a tempting offer especially when Marguerite's brother Francois was the sister of the second in line to the throne of France [5].

However, they would not have time to dwell on such things as de la Pole brothers were poking their head out of the hole they had been hiding in and the three ladies had their first big storm brewing.


[1] Yes, he died the day his wife died in history. I thought it was ironic.

[2] The last baby king was King Henry V who was nine months old, just two months older than our King Arthur.

[3] Margaret gave birth to her son at age thirteen. She would not want her granddaughter going through the same thing. While King James in history did not sleep with Margaret until she was at least sixteen, I feel like he would have gone the extra mile to appease the three regents.

[4] Charles Somerset was actually the French ambassador but I decided to have him working in the Imperial courts instead. Thanks to his actions here, he will be getting that earldom early.

[5] A butterfly. Anne of Brittany's son in 1503 survives. He is named Louis.
 
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. It was a tempting offer especially when Marguerite's brother Francois was the sister of the third in line to France [5].


[5] A butterfly. Anne of Brittany's son in 1503 survives. He is named Louis
??? If France has a living Dauphin (who will most likely marry Isabella of Austria at this point) then Francis is then second-in-line (as he was the first-in-line OTL)
 
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