Happy and Glorious.
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It becomes a better story is all I am saying. If one side has all the luck in the story it becomes a very boring story.
Imagine a Fellowship of the Ring, where Aragron eaisly dispathes the ringwraiths at Amon-Sûl saving Frodo from getting stabbed and have no problem getting the four hobbits into Rivendell, later Gandalf slays the Balrog on the bridge of Khazad-Dûm and traips over into Lorién without a hitch.... not quite fun to read such a story now is it?
And no you're not really writing about Glorious, you're writing about why Glorious wasn't sunk as she was, which includes in this case a battle where Scharnhorst gets sunk, so in fact you have removed one fluke for the Germans where they caught Glorious napping, and added one for the British where they sink the Scharnhorst.
To make it an interesting story is easy, let the Renown sink afterwards. Capsize, blow up. Anything.
The main thread can be found here. Though I should warn you, it's full of Britwank, Ameriscrew and the writing leaves a lot to be desired, especially in the first third. And it's rather long.
EDIT: The battle itself is in the second half of this post.
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Right, i'm off to my local book store where I shall find and burn every book that contains any reference to the Battle of Midway whilst merrily screaming AMERIWANK!!!!
Good for you, I on the other hand would balance that up with the luckiest torpedo salvo of the war
Wikipedia said:
Japanwank? Sinking one carrier, one destroyer and heavily damaging a modern battleship.
If you like. You're the one bandying the term around not me. My only sin here is to lightly mock you for it
Happy and Glorious
continued
Admiral Marschall had been weighing his options ever since he knew that the British had discovered him. His second plan made earlier in the evening had called for the Hipper to link up with Prinz Eugen and then continue on their course into the Atlantic. The Bismarck and the Gneisenau would turn sharply to the west toward Greenland and zig zag for 2 hours and then turn to the north east and head back towards Norway the same way they had come. If this fails to shrug off his pursuers it would at least force the British to choose whether or not to divide their forces. If they kept their forces together then they would have to either chase him back towards Norway and thereby let the Prinz Eugen and Hipper loose into the North Atlantic, or chase the two heavy cruisers.
He figured the British would stay together and try to follow Bismarck and Gneisenau. If he maintained his planned speed and course in the present weather conditions then he was confident that the destroyers couldn't catch him, the cruisers could be kept at arms length and the Hood and the KGV class ship would have trouble keeping up. If a stern chase battle developed he reasoned that the Gneisenau could outrun everybody and only Hood could theoretically keep up with Bismarck and he felt confident he could take on Hood.
Lindemann had asked why not go into the Atlantic together. Marschall answered that surprise had been lost and even if he gives the British a bloody nose there would still be enough ships to follow him and give his position to the rest of the Home Fleet which was probably gathering forces south of Iceland and on an intercept course by now. He argued it would be better to draw the British fleet away from the heavy cruisers who were better suited to commerce raiding anyway.
Now the plight of the Hipper had changed everything. He made new plans while a surly Lindemann looked at him with accusing eyes as if it were his fault that the Hipper were under fire. Obviously Lindemann had forgotten that Marschall had twice asked Raeder to leave the Hipper out of 'Rheinubung' and let her go commerce raiding alone.
Admiral Marschall now knew that two County class cruisers were firing on the Hipper who was fleeing to the south west and heading into the path of his forces. The enemy destroyers were now far behind the Hipper who had ran into them earlier and left a couple of them burning. He knew that there were two capital ships identified. Whether or not there were more lurking beyond the horizon he wasn't sure but he calculated that the British ships would have already attacked if there were.
The Gneisenau reported that the two enemy capital ships which had started to shadow them instead of the cruisers were falling behind. This was definitely good news. Were they having mechanical problems? Were they running short of fuel? Was that museum piece the 'mighty' Hood falling apart in the rough weather? Whatever the reason he decided to seize on the opportunity to aid the Hipper.
He now ordered an increase in speed to 29 knots and felt he could reach Hipper before the British Heavy ships could intervene. Together they would hit the British cruisers hard and then turn and face the enemy capital ships. He calculated that Hood would be in the van as they would increase to their maximum speed in order to reach their cruisers as soon as possible. Dawn would be coming soon and he hoped to catch them against the sunrise and cross their 'T'. He then expected to blast his way through the British forces and head north. He hoped the Hipper would be able to come too.
It was an aggressive plan and when Marschall explained it to Lindemann he actually saw his captain smile.
Admiral Holland was surprised and annoyed when the Hipper appeared. It had threatened his carrier, shot up some of his destroyers and forced the rest to form a shield around the precious Glorious. Then he had to detach his cruisers to intercept her before she joined the main German force. Now he was using his own capital ships to shadow the enemy. Damn the Hipper.
Unfortunately, Prince of Wales was only making 26 knots in the rough sea and was proving to be poor sea boat. The enemy had been averaging just over 27. Now he was told that they had increased speed to 29 knots. He knew where they were heading but unless he raced ahead in the Hood he could do little. There was no way he was going to fight Bismarck, Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen alone and expect to live long enough for Prince of Wales to catch up.
Salvation would have to come from HMS Glorious and her string bags.
Meanwhile Hipper was hit by three more 8" shells. A desperate attempt to fight the fires on board were only partially successful. There were now about 75 dead on the Hipper and there were some minor water leaks. Only one rear turret was fully operable but she was able to return fire as a stern chase had developed. Luckily for her the speed was unaffected. She finally landed a hit on Suffolk close to the bridge killing two and injuring many more including the captain. The concussion had also damaged her radar.
The Gneisenau was ordered to overtake Bismarck, follow the Prinz Eugen and race towards the glow of the burning Hipper and fall upon the British cruisers. The Bismarck brought up the rear. He wanted to save his ammunition for the 'mighty' Hood.
Admiral Marschall was then told some very bad news.
Above them in the still dark sky there were now 15 swordfish preparing for an attack. In the gloom they had identified three large ships. It was difficult to distinguish which was which on the primitive radar and visuals didn't help much either. Luckily they had been told which ship to target based on cruiser reports from an hour earlier. They were ready.
So were the Germans.
continued
Admiral Marschall had been weighing his options ever since he knew that the British had discovered him. His second plan made earlier in the evening had called for the Hipper to link up with Prinz Eugen and then continue on their course into the Atlantic. The Bismarck and the Gneisenau would turn sharply to the west toward Greenland and zig zag for 2 hours and then turn to the north east and head back towards Norway the same way they had come. If this fails to shrug off his pursuers it would at least force the British to choose whether or not to divide their forces. If they kept their forces together then they would have to either chase him back towards Norway and thereby let the Prinz Eugen and Hipper loose into the North Atlantic, or chase the two heavy cruisers.
He figured the British would stay together and try to follow Bismarck and Gneisenau. If he maintained his planned speed and course in the present weather conditions then he was confident that the destroyers couldn't catch him, the cruisers could be kept at arms length and the Hood and the KGV class ship would have trouble keeping up. If a stern chase battle developed he reasoned that the Gneisenau could outrun everybody and only Hood could theoretically keep up with Bismarck and he felt confident he could take on Hood.
Lindemann had asked why not go into the Atlantic together. Marschall answered that surprise had been lost and even if he gives the British a bloody nose there would still be enough ships to follow him and give his position to the rest of the Home Fleet which was probably gathering forces south of Iceland and on an intercept course by now. He argued it would be better to draw the British fleet away from the heavy cruisers who were better suited to commerce raiding anyway.
Now the plight of the Hipper had changed everything. He made new plans while a surly Lindemann looked at him with accusing eyes as if it were his fault that the Hipper were under fire. Obviously Lindemann had forgotten that Marschall had twice asked Raeder to leave the Hipper out of 'Rheinubung' and let her go commerce raiding alone.
Admiral Marschall now knew that two County class cruisers were firing on the Hipper who was fleeing to the south west and heading into the path of his forces. The enemy destroyers were now far behind the Hipper who had ran into them earlier and left a couple of them burning. He knew that there were two capital ships identified. Whether or not there were more lurking beyond the horizon he wasn't sure but he calculated that the British ships would have already attacked if there were.
The Gneisenau reported that the two enemy capital ships which had started to shadow them instead of the cruisers were falling behind. This was definitely good news. Were they having mechanical problems? Were they running short of fuel? Was that museum piece the 'mighty' Hood falling apart in the rough weather? Whatever the reason he decided to seize on the opportunity to aid the Hipper.
He now ordered an increase in speed to 29 knots and felt he could reach Hipper before the British Heavy ships could intervene. Together they would hit the British cruisers hard and then turn and face the enemy capital ships. He calculated that Hood would be in the van as they would increase to their maximum speed in order to reach their cruisers as soon as possible. Dawn would be coming soon and he hoped to catch them against the sunrise and cross their 'T'. He then expected to blast his way through the British forces and head north. He hoped the Hipper would be able to come too.
It was an aggressive plan and when Marschall explained it to Lindemann he actually saw his captain smile.
Admiral Holland was surprised and annoyed when the Hipper appeared. It had threatened his carrier, shot up some of his destroyers and forced the rest to form a shield around the precious Glorious. Then he had to detach his cruisers to intercept her before she joined the main German force. Now he was using his own capital ships to shadow the enemy. Damn the Hipper.
Unfortunately, Prince of Wales was only making 26 knots in the rough sea and was proving to be poor sea boat. The enemy had been averaging just over 27. Now he was told that they had increased speed to 29 knots. He knew where they were heading but unless he raced ahead in the Hood he could do little. There was no way he was going to fight Bismarck, Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen alone and expect to live long enough for Prince of Wales to catch up.
Salvation would have to come from HMS Glorious and her string bags.
Meanwhile Hipper was hit by three more 8" shells. A desperate attempt to fight the fires on board were only partially successful. There were now about 75 dead on the Hipper and there were some minor water leaks. Only one rear turret was fully operable but she was able to return fire as a stern chase had developed. Luckily for her the speed was unaffected. She finally landed a hit on Suffolk close to the bridge killing two and injuring many more including the captain. The concussion had also damaged her radar.
The Gneisenau was ordered to overtake Bismarck, follow the Prinz Eugen and race towards the glow of the burning Hipper and fall upon the British cruisers. The Bismarck brought up the rear. He wanted to save his ammunition for the 'mighty' Hood.
Admiral Marschall was then told some very bad news.
Above them in the still dark sky there were now 15 swordfish preparing for an attack. In the gloom they had identified three large ships. It was difficult to distinguish which was which on the primitive radar and visuals didn't help much either. Luckily they had been told which ship to target based on cruiser reports from an hour earlier. They were ready.
So were the Germans.
usertron2020
Donor
Devolved
I hope you will take into account the fact that the Bismarck's AA guns were calibrated for facing aircraft much faster than the Swordfish. One reason why the British torpedo planes didn't suffer heavier casualties against the Bismarck (did they suffer any?) was because the German AA calibrations was causing constant overshooting.
This wasn't a problem in the Channel Dash. Which is why, between the AA guns of the Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, and Prinz Eugen, plus a heavy Luftwaffe Combat Air Patrol, the Swordfish were slaughtered (I think to the last aircraft). But at least those results finally convinced the British to give the FAA equal footing with the RAF in terms of aircraft replacements and new designs.
I hope you will take into account the fact that the Bismarck's AA guns were calibrated for facing aircraft much faster than the Swordfish. One reason why the British torpedo planes didn't suffer heavier casualties against the Bismarck (did they suffer any?
) was because the German AA calibrations was causing constant overshooting.This wasn't a problem in the Channel Dash. Which is why, between the AA guns of the Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, and Prinz Eugen, plus a heavy Luftwaffe Combat Air Patrol, the Swordfish were slaughtered (I think to the last aircraft). But at least those results finally convinced the British to give the FAA equal footing with the RAF in terms of aircraft replacements and new designs.
"Above them in the still dark sky there were now 15 swordfish preparing for an attack."
Only 15 ? Or is this just the first wave, with a second to follow? Will there be a supported attack by dive-bombers e.g. Skuas!?
My (ancient) ref give the Glorious aircraft capacity as 48 compared with the Illustrious class of 36, granted early in the war there wasn't the aircraft available to reach that figure; however still seems plausible to have more aircraft for the attack(s). Go for it.
Only 15 ? Or is this just the first wave, with a second to follow? Will there be a supported attack by dive-bombers e.g. Skuas!?
My (ancient) ref give the Glorious aircraft capacity as 48 compared with the Illustrious class of 36, granted early in the war there wasn't the aircraft available to reach that figure; however still seems plausible to have more aircraft for the attack(s). Go for it.
sharlin
Banned
Early in the war there was not enough aircraft to go around to give the carriers a full strike capacity or allow them to carry their full compliment. The Ark could carry I belive 64 aircraft but she never carried anywhere near that number and certinally didn't launch many at the Bismark OTL, neither did the Victorious.
usertron2020
Donor
No, he's right. Remember, aircraft numbers in terms of inventory do not correspond to operational aircrews. There are always extra aircraft to allow for replacements of combat damaged planes in which the crews are saved but the aircraft are a total loss. Hence, you may have three aircraft for every two aircrews (I speak of fighter planes here as well).
When you throw in fighters, attack aircraft (dive bombers?), and scouts, plus the usual number of aircraft in any mission forced to abort due to engine troubles (and those Swordfish were OLD), 15 sounds just about right. Also, the relatively large numbers of replacement aircraft will mean the aircrews can launch a second strike at full force, minus combat casualties (those who fail to return).
SPECIAL NOTE TO DEVOLVED:
I should point out that AFAIK only the Bismarck had those first generation (and never before tested in combat) calibrated AA guns. It was a source of considerable frustration for the Bismarck's AA gunners that they couldn't seem to be able to bring down such slow aircraft as the Swordfish. Also, I don't know whether any aircraft attacks took place while the Prinz Eugen was still with the Bismarck, or in fact whether the other German ships DID have those calibrated AA guns. I only know for certain that the Bismarck had them.
Ninja'd by Sharlin. I didn't know about British carrier aircraft shortages, but that sounds right for the FAA. I'm used to referring to Japanese and US CVs, which were often overloaded with aircraft BEYOND what their rated complement was.
usertron2020
Donor
Sharlin, we seem to be going through a Ninja war.
I'll stay off this thread for several hours at least and let you have your say.15 would be about right for a single strike. The FAA (thanks to the RAF..) had a philosophy of more, smaller strikes rather than one big one. It proved wrong in daytime (as the Pacific showed). However at night its a different ballgame.
I would expect a second strike to follow the first, but it may well be smaller (maybe less than 10 planes). The doctrine was to get both strikes in an hour or two apart, the second (smaller) one hopefuly taking advantage of damage and confusion caused by the first one.
Not sure how effective AAA will be in any case against an aircraft at night, these werent late-war radar-guided installations. Not very I would say.
If it works, then its going to be interesting to see what Holland decides to do - take them on now, still at odds, or keep on air strikes (he has Victorious and the veteran Ark Royal on the way, remember...). Could we see the end of the battleship come early, well before Force Z...??
) had a philosophy of more, smaller strikes rather than one big one. It proved wrong in daytime (as the Pacific showed). However at night its a different ballgame.I would expect a second strike to follow the first, but it may well be smaller (maybe less than 10 planes). The doctrine was to get both strikes in an hour or two apart, the second (smaller) one hopefuly taking advantage of damage and confusion caused by the first one.
Not sure how effective AAA will be in any case against an aircraft at night, these werent late-war radar-guided installations. Not very I would say.
If it works, then its going to be interesting to see what Holland decides to do - take them on now, still at odds, or keep on air strikes (he has Victorious and the veteran Ark Royal on the way, remember...). Could we see the end of the battleship come early, well before Force Z...??
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