Happy and Glorious.
- Thread starter Devolved
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Those are the rules apparently.
What I should have written was this:
Scharnhorst opens fire and a British ship blows up.
Bismarck fires and two British ships blow up.
A German fishing boat throws a a frozen sardine and a British ship blows up.
British ships fire back but they bounce off the impregnable uber armour of the German ships. The British then order the cavalry to jump in the sea and swim at the Bismarck with their sabres waving in the air while someone plays the bagpipes on the beach.
Perhaps......
Exactly. It is a well known fact that no-one in the German military has ever made a mistake or bad decision, while every single person in the British military is catastrophically unlucky and very stupid all the time.
Rubicon
Banned
Tears? Of laughter perhaps then, because I am laughing at this thread
Firstly you have the Germans make fourteen 28cm/54,5 SK/C34 hits on Renown, three duds, one hit that apparently disables the 'B' turret.... and none of the others that in any way inhibits the ability of the Renown to continue action, none of which hits below the waterline flooding compartments and forcing her to reduce speed, none that disables her gunnery control, none that hits the bridge, none that hits any secondary armament none that does anything of anything.
Armour shrugs it off? No, the 28cm/54,5 SK/C34 guns on the Siamese twins could penetrate any (including main turret front) amour on the Renown below 20K yards.
Pure grade A bullshit that amour would shrug it off.
Secondly you have the Germans spotting the RN destroyers (IRL they were only spotted when they opened fire out of range) despite this you have the German admiral turning towards them and into range of their torpedoes. This means the German admiral is not only stupid but also incompetent.
Thirdly the torpedo hits. Hitting with a torpedo at ship that speeds at 30knots in that weather would be like winning big at the lottery, hitting it twice is like winning the lottery twice on the same ticket on the same day. Sure it can happen, but it doesn't.
It would be like a British bomber that threw out leaflets in the beginning of the war would by mistake throw out a wrench as well that hits Adolf Hitler in the head and he dies. Sure it can happen, but it doesn't.
Fourthly when Hipper stumbles onto HMS Glorious by mistake in the night, I bet the Germans just wish they had some kind of technological device that could find ships at say twelve miles range.....
... oh wait they did.
As for writing a story, you need to balance the good with the bad, otherwise it becomes a wank, very quickly, and then you have people like me calling out all the faults in it.
Example: You have the Renown hitting the Scharnhorst blowing off a turret, then you need to balance this out by having Scharnhorst hitting Renown below the waterline flooding some compartments, taking on 500-1500 tons of water and forcing her to reduce speed to 17-18 knots in that weather.
If you have the Germans being stupid and turning into a torpedo attack and having the British being lucky enough to get two torpedo hits that sink the Scharnhorst. Then you need to balance this up by having the British being equally stupid and by faulty navigation stumble into a minefield and blow up.
Balance.
Otherwise it becomes a stupid wank.
Tears? Of laughter perhaps then, because I am laughing at this thread
Firstly you have the Germans make fourteen 28cm/54,5 SK/C34 hits on Renown, three duds, one hit that apparently disables the 'B' turret.... and none of the others that in any way inhibits the ability of the Renown to continue action, none of which hits below the waterline flooding compartments and forcing her to reduce speed, none that disables her gunnery control, none that hits the bridge, none that hits any secondary armament none that does anything of anything.
Armour shrugs it off? No, the 28cm/54,5 SK/C34 guns on the Siamese twins could penetrate any (including main turret front) amour on the Renown below 20K yards.
Pure grade A bullshit that amour would shrug it off.
Secondly you have the Germans spotting the RN destroyers (IRL they were only spotted when they opened fire out of range) despite this you have the German admiral turning towards them and into range of their torpedoes. This means the German admiral is not only stupid but also incompetent.
Thirdly the torpedo hits. Hitting with a torpedo at ship that speeds at 30knots in that weather would be like winning big at the lottery, hitting it twice is like winning the lottery twice on the same ticket on the same day. Sure it can happen, but it doesn't.
It would be like a British bomber that threw out leaflets in the beginning of the war would by mistake throw out a wrench as well that hits Adolf Hitler in the head and he dies. Sure it can happen, but it doesn't.
Fourthly when Hipper stumbles onto HMS Glorious by mistake in the night, I bet the Germans just wish they had some kind of technological device that could find ships at say twelve miles range.....
... oh wait they did.
As for writing a story, you need to balance the good with the bad, otherwise it becomes a wank, very quickly, and then you have people like me calling out all the faults in it.
Example: You have the Renown hitting the Scharnhorst blowing off a turret, then you need to balance this out by having Scharnhorst hitting Renown below the waterline flooding some compartments, taking on 500-1500 tons of water and forcing her to reduce speed to 17-18 knots in that weather.
If you have the Germans being stupid and turning into a torpedo attack and having the British being lucky enough to get two torpedo hits that sink the Scharnhorst. Then you need to balance this up by having the British being equally stupid and by faulty navigation stumble into a minefield and blow up.
Balance.
Otherwise it becomes a stupid wank.
That's better.
Firstly I did say that the Renown was in a bad shape too and couldn't pursue Gneisenau. I know I didn't describe each shell hit in detail or specify how many tons of water had leaked in but I am not writing a novel here.
It is pretty much clear that the Renown is badly knocked about. I also had the Destroyers badly hurt too and at least one was lost and another dead in the water. As a matter of fact it butterflied away the first attack on the German destroyers in Narvik because the British force had been hurt in its fight with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau.
OTL 2 German 11" shells did hit the Renown without exploding. Having 3 out of 14 doing the same wouldn't have been all that strange on the day.
Secondly you say that hitting the Scharnhorst with a torpedo in rough weather is a lottery win but OTL in 1943 the Scharnhorst was hit by torpedoes in rough weather AT NIGHT. Also I didn't say 2 hits sank the Scharnhorst I had more destroyers close in later.
Finally, I am not having the Germans behaving stupidly. OTL they behaved stupidly by always dividing their forces and letting the British pick them off singly. They also had a strong desire to avoid confrontation with any but the weakest RN force because they were worried about being damaged far from a safe harbour. They wouldn't even finish off the Prince of Wales because they were so risk averse.
This time they are actually trying to keep their powerful units together. I have had the Germans being unlucky but that's no different from being lucky or unlucky OTL. Bismarck getting hit by a torpedo that jammed her steering was unlucky too. If that were put into a AH thread no one would accept it and cry foul.
sharlin
Banned
One thing about Radar, the Germans seemed to be very wary of using it. Graf Spee didn't have hers turned on, the Bismarks was used sparringly if at all during the whole persuit so the Hipper not using her radar makes sense. Many commanders felt that the radar emissions would guide hostiles to them, so keep the radar off and they can't spot you.
Another example, battle of the barrents sea, the Hipper was supprised and bushwacked at fairly close range by two 6 inch gunned cruisers, they were using their radar to guide their intercept, and the germans were not out of fear it would give them away the end result was a roughed up Hipper which withdrew and a furious hitler who went ape and ordered all major surface units scrapped.
As the OP said, the Scharnhorst was hit by torps at night in god damn aweful weather when she was sunk. Something like 7 torps in total. At sea the germans were quite rubbish. Constrained by orders and numbers they could not act agressively as well as being limited by their ships, their destroyers were well armed but aweful sea boats, the engineering plants on the Hippers were maintencance hogs, Light cruisers who's hulls were structually flawed and fragile etc etc. People seem to expect that the Germans were amazing at sea. They were not. They were well led and brave but severely let down by designs and higher ups.
Another example, battle of the barrents sea, the Hipper was supprised and bushwacked at fairly close range by two 6 inch gunned cruisers, they were using their radar to guide their intercept, and the germans were not out of fear it would give them away the end result was a roughed up Hipper which withdrew and a furious hitler who went ape and ordered all major surface units scrapped.
As the OP said, the Scharnhorst was hit by torps at night in god damn aweful weather when she was sunk. Something like 7 torps in total. At sea the germans were quite rubbish. Constrained by orders and numbers they could not act agressively as well as being limited by their ships, their destroyers were well armed but aweful sea boats, the engineering plants on the Hippers were maintencance hogs, Light cruisers who's hulls were structually flawed and fragile etc etc. People seem to expect that the Germans were amazing at sea. They were not. They were well led and brave but severely let down by designs and higher ups.
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Tears? Of laughter perhaps then, because I am laughing at this thread
You know, people will take you more seriously if you cut out the arrogant sanctimonious attitude and just leave the constructive criticism.
I'd suggest you go back and re-read the story before commenting again. You've clearly missed some important details:
So two turrets knocked out, the ship leaking water and at the very least a dozen men killed doesn't equate to damage impairing the fighting capability of the ship?
Rubicon
Banned
Well you didn't really write so...
Devolved said:
Heavily implying that the worst damage was that the 'B' turret was inoperable, with 11 hits that weren't duds, and at that range all of them would be penetrating. At that point she'd be lucky to still be afloat. To still be able to fight effectively would be a miracle.
I disagree, with your sentiment that it's clear that Renown is badly knocked about. To you, maybe, but not to me as a reader.
Ah but did that butterfly change anything or did Warspite still go in all guns blazing?
I'm not arguing about the duds, they happen, I'm arguing about the lack of effect of those that detonated.
Getting one torpedo hit in that weather can happen but is damned lucky, getting two....
As for 1943, I take it you are refering to the Battle of the North Cape December 26th 1943? At that point, Scharnhorst's secondary armament was basically gone and she couldn't steam at more then 22knots, and not maneuvering to avoid torpedoes. Completely different situation.
Being stupid and not taking any risks is one thing, turning towards a known threat and exposing a ship to such a threat is something else...
Ah but the story of the Bismarck is a balanced story, she sinks a mighty battleships with what some call a lucky fluke hit, while in turn getting sunk due to what some call a lucky fluke hit is a really entertaining story.
There were two attacks on the German destroyers in Narvik. The first one doesn't happen ATL because of casualties to the RN destroyers. The second one goes in with the Warspite OTL.
However, I am not writing about the Warspite and the entire war at sea. I am writing about things that surround and involve HMS Glorious which in this ATL didn't get sunk in April 1940.
So for balance I have to include one fluke each?
OK.
Sorry June 1940.
As for the Battlecruiser thing. The RN had Hood as a Battlecruiser and as a flagship of a Battlecruiser squadron between the wars. No in name only about it.
Right, i'm off to my local book store where I shall find and burn every book that contains any reference to the Battle of Midway whilst merrily screaming AMERIWANK!!!!
Great stuff devolved, consider me subscribed.
Great stuff devolved, consider me subscribed.
sharlin
Banned
PS Hood wasnt mighty. She was judged it because the british press and public seemed to think tht if something looks powerful then it sure as hell is. And the Hood looked powerful.
Sad truth was that she was in dire need of a refit and really should not have been put against Bismark which was a far superior vessel.
Sad truth was that she was in dire need of a refit and really should not have been put against Bismark which was a far superior vessel.
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