Happy and Glorious.

[usertron2020]

That's what you get when in the years between the wars all aircraft specifications for the FAA were drawn up by RAF officers with no experience of ship board operations and a distaste for airmen with wet feet.

In the classic BBC Mini-Series "World At War", as British-centric as it was, they pulled no punches whatsoever regarding the FAA. They described the FAA as the "poor man's service", while the RAF had first claim on all resources.

They showed a film of a Swordfish crashing (cartwheeling!) onto the deck of a British carrier. The sight of that old biplane wrecking itself made a shocking contrast to the very next two scenes of fully loaded flight decks of Japanese and American carriers, with sleek modern monoplanes (in their second generation, at least). The contrast between the British FAA aircraft and what was in use by the USN and IJN made it LOOK (to the eyes of a layman) like the Royal Navy was using castoffs from World War One!

Do you think that it was the lamentable state of FAA aircraft (as opposed to their well-designed aircraft carrier ships) that made the Admiralty refuse Admiral King's(*) request that they redeploy one or more of their three carriers off Africa to Australian waters in the month prior to Midway?

*-The refusal was a humiliation King never forgave. And he never forgave anything. Not that it was a feat worthy of Hercules to piss that man off.

EDIT: The problem was the Royal Navy really needed a Bull Halsey. AFAIK, they didn't have one.

 

[Devolved]

Happy and Glorious

continued


All the aircraft from the first wave had returned safely to the Glorious. The captain personally counted them all out and counted them all back in. He knew all of the aircrews by name and felt the same way a hunter does when he sees his hounds let loose and then sees them all return with tails wagging and blood on their muzzles. He couldn't help but smile as he saw one Swordfish so shot up that it looked someone had wrapped the airframe in a dirty string vest. Everyone appeared to be fine apart from one unlucky observer who was put on a stretcher and carried in a rather leisurely fashion to sick bay. The Captain told the stretcher bearers to hurry up before the man dies of old age.

The second wave had already been launched. It consisted of 10 Swordfish and 2 Fulmars. He was also requested to launch another Fulmar to act as observer for Admiral Holland in the Hood. 'At last' he thought 'my ship is actually doing something. Up yours Ark Royal.'


Admiral Marschall now had a big problem. Gneisenau could manage 22 knots at most. He also had the Hipper which was still able to move at 30 knots but was in no condition to fight. He knew he faced a carrier that could attack him at will and 2 powerful capital ships very, very close. The burden was starting to weigh heavily on him. He realized that no matter what decision he made, he would lose ships and many of his men would never see home again.

He was temporarily filled by an overwhelming depression. Many scenarios raced through his head each more ludicrous than the last. Then he pulled himself together. He knew what to do. He issued new instructions and then decided it was time to talk to the men.


Admiral Holland was glad to see the Norfolk and Suffolk coming into view. They were not being pursued as far as he could tell (the Swordfish attack forced Prinz Eugen to break off pursuit and return to the damaged Gneisenau) so he had time to take stock of the situation. He knew the Bismarck was untouched and that Gneisenau had been torpedoed twice. The Hipper had been hit many times but he had no more information than that. The Glorious was sending in another attack that would hit the enemy soon. He decided to delay a surface engagement with the enemy until the second strike was done and he had reports on damage.

Suddenly Admiral Holland was handed a piece of paper with a message from the Admiralty. For the second time that day he screwed the paper up into a ball and threw it on the floor. The admiral hung his head and remained in silent contemplation.


The King George V had been torpedoed by a U boat!

Admiral Marschall addressed the crew of the Bismarck from the bridge. He told them things that many of them had guessed already such as a strong British force had intercepted them and that they should brace themselves for more air attacks. He expressed hope that if they maintain their courage and remember their training then they would have no problems getting through this and reaching home.

He spoke with authority and confidence as an Admiral should but then finished his motivational speech with

"never let it be said that the sailors of the Kriegsmarine flinched or hesistated from doing their duty, not even for a second. Never let it be said that we didn't die without fighting to the last shell and until the last breath left our bodies. Even as Neptune the king of the mighty ocean lays claim to us and draws us down into his watery domain, the world will know that we were Germans and that we died for our Fuhrer, for our Fatherland and for the honour and glory of the Kriegsmarine. Heil Hitler"

'Great' thought Captain Lindemann.

 

[Paulo the Limey]

Hopefully those screaming "BRITWANK" will be pleased by the balance shown in Torpedoing KGV. Just how badly was she hit?

 

[Devolved]

Hopefully those screaming "BRITWANK" will be pleased by the balance shown in Torpedoing KGV. Just how badly was she hit?

Still thinking about it. Actually I wasn't sure how and when to bring KGV into it. If she is coming then the battle turns into a massacre. That would have been great OTL but it doesn't make a good ATL story.

 

[Astrodragon]

One torpedo isnt going to sink KGV, or damage her severly, but it will slow her down, almost certainly cost her fuel oil (and range), and make it impractical to get into the battle except as a last resort (she will have a list which will to some extent compromise her belt armour scheme)

Let Glorious, Victorious and Ark Royal sink the Bismark!!!

 

[Devolved]

One torpedo isnt going to sink KGV, or damage her severly, but it will slow her down, almost certainly cost her fuel oil (and range), and make it impractical to get into the battle except as a last resort (she will have a list which will to some extent compromise her belt armour scheme)

Let Glorious, Victorious and Ark Royal sink the Bismark!!!

A massacre by stringbag.

The Bismarck lovers would have no excuses if she gets hit by 25 18" torpedoes in wave after wave of ruthless and pitiless attacks.

Then as she's slipping the beneath the waves with her colours defiantly flying the HMS Hood shoots the German flag off.

maybe.........

 

[usertron2020]

Still thinking about it. Actually I wasn't sure how and when to bring KGV into it. If she is coming then the battle turns into a massacre. That would have been great OTL but it doesn't make a good ATL story.

You may have others screaming ASB for this. Do you know what the odds are for a submarine in the Mid-North Atlantic in bad weather torpedoing a fast battleship racing at full speed into battle? Even the USS Indianapolis was cruising well AWAY from a combat zone, not zig-zagging, and only moving at a speed of 17 knots. This represents a Golden BB if ever there was one in the whole of WWII. It can honestly be said that the Germans have exhausted ALL of their "battle luck" at this point.

OK, OK, but the arrival and combat performance of HMS Rodney better be pretty devastating. Unless you want this to start turning into a GERMAN-wank. Remember that underwater exploration proved that it was the Rodney's sixteen inch shellfire that caused the truly most critical damage to the Bismarck. KGV's fire scoured away much of the superstructure, secondary guns, AA guns, and the bridge. But only the Rodney managed to penetrate the deck armor (in numerous places) to cause heavy damage to Bismarck's vital interiors.

 

[Devolved]

You may have others screaming ASB for this. Do you know what the odds are for a submarine in the Mid-North Atlantic in bad weather torpedoing a fast battleship racing at full speed into battle? Even the USS Indianapolis was cruising well AWAY from a combat zone, not zig-zagging, and only moving at a speed of 17 knots. This represents a Golden BB if ever there was one in the whole of WWII. It can honestly be said that the Germans have exhausted ALL of their "battle luck" at this point.

OK, OK, but the arrival and combat performance of HMS Rodney better be pretty devastating. Unless you want this to start turning into a GERMAN-wank. Remember that underwater exploration proved that it was the Rodney's sixteen inch shellfire that caused the truly most critical damage to the Bismarck. KGV's fire scoured away much of the superstructure, secondary guns, AA guns, and the bridge. But only the Rodney managed to penetrate the deck armor (in numerous places) to caused heavy damage to Bismarck's vital interiors.

The KGV torpedo incident will be a challenge to explain. I was tired when I typed that line and stooped to using a cheap soap opera standard bombshell. I will just have to dig myself out of the hole as best I can.

I do know about the Rodney's 16" guns penetrating the Bismarcks armour.

Of course I have to bear in mind that the Bismarck fan boys will still say that the Bismarck cannot be sunk unless the Germans scuttle her.

 

[Devolved]

The KGV torpedo incident will be a challenge to explain. I was tired when I typed that line and stooped to using a cheap soap opera standard bombshell. I will just have to dig myself out of the hole as best I can.

Lutzow was torpedoed by HMS Spearfish off Norway on April 11th 1940.

According to the Spearfish the weather was terrible and the ship was travelling fast.

If anyone can show me it was travelling at 25 knots or more then I hope to avoid ASB for KGV. If a british submarine can do it then no one can complain if a U boat does it.

 

[usertron2020]

The KGV torpedo incident will be a challenge to explain. I was tired when I typed that line and stooped to using a cheap soap opera standard bombshell. I will just have to dig myself out of the hole as best I can.(1)

I do know about the Rodney's 16" guns penetrating the Bismarcks armor.

Of course I have to bear in mind that the Bismarck fan boys (2) will still say that the Bismarck cannot be sunk unless the Germans scuttle her.(3)

1) Confession is good for the soul.

2) Don't let yourself be dissuaded by them. After all, the Bismarck WAS going to sink. That's obvious. Except for battleship enthusiasts that think that the Bismarck truly was "unsinkable". Anything made of steel can sink, period. Just ask the survivors of the Yamato, Musashi, and Tirpitz. I'm not denying that the Germans may have scuttled her, and that that contributed to her sinking, but even if they didn't HMS Dorsetshire still had plenty of torpedoes left to use.

Not to mention that unlike the Tovey Force, Captain Benjamin C.S. Martin's ship had plenty of fuel to standby and fire at the Bismarck all the live-long day. Even eight inch heavy cruiser guns, fired at pointblank range against no opposing fire, will eventually finish off a battleship.

EDIT: When the Dorsetshire thought they spotted a U-Boat? Turns out they did. But they didn't know the U-Boat in question was coming back from a long patrol and was following orders to try to rescue Bismarck survivors themselves. The Dorsetshire was forced to leave, and the U-Boat was only able to rescue a tiny handful of Bismarck seamen. Turns out the U-Boat had already fired off all her torpedoes except for one in a disabled stern tube that was incapable of being fired. They should have just stayed away and left the Dorsetshire to her work.

 

[usertron2020]

Lutzow was torpedoed by HMS Spearfish off Norway on April 11th 1940.

According to the Spearfish the weather was terrible and the ship was travelling fast.(1)

If anyone can show me it was travelling at 25 knots or more then I hope to avoid ASB for KGV. If a british submarine can do it then no one can complain if a U boat does it.(2)(3)

1) Couldn't have been traveling TOO fast, considering all the mine damage the Lutzow had taken in the Oslo operation. Those "pocket battleships" weren't exactly built for taking punishment, seeing as they were basically just very heavily armed heavy cruisers. Then again, from a submariner's perspective, ANY warship would be seen as traveling fast compared to merchant ships.

2) The Lutzow was going from Oslo to German home waters. The Skagerrak is only 100 nautical miles wide between Oslo and Denmark. Not exactly the North Atlantic in terms of distances. That sector was lousy with British subs at that time.

The Kriegsmarine IIRC did not order its U-Boat fleet to swarm into the battle, but to continue their own war on British merchant shipping (the convoys). After all, that was the whole point of Hitler's ultimately giving the alright to this scheme. Not to refight the Battle of Jutland. Since the KGV was outside the shipping lanes, where the F*** is that U-Boat coming from? That's way outside of the Happy Hunting Grounds for them (near the Denmark Straits?).

3) *Hole gets deeper*

 

[Devolved]

1) Couldn't have been traveling TOO fast, considering all the mine damage the Lutzow had taken in the Oslo operation. Those "pocket battleships" weren't exactly built for taking punishment, seeing as they were basically just very heavily armed heavy cruisers. Then again, from a submariner's perspective, ANY warship would be seen as traveling fast compared to merchant ships.

2) The Lutzow was going from Oslo to German home waters. The Skagerrak is only 100 nautical miles wide between Oslo and Denmark. Not exactly the North Atlantic in terms of distances. That sector was lousy with British subs at that time.

The Kriegsmarine IIRC did not order its U-Boat fleet to swarm into the battle, but to continue their own war on British merchant shipping (the convoys). After all, that was the whole point of Hitler's ultimately giving the alright to this scheme. Not to refight the Battle of Jutland. Since the KGV was outside the shipping lanes, where the F*** is that U-Boat coming from? That's way outside of the Happy Hunting Grounds for them (near the Denmark Straits?).

3) *Hole gets deeper*

I never said they were in the Denmark Straits. A U boat screen across the likely path of the Home fleet converging on the Denmark Strait perhaps.

Remember that in this ATL Operation Rheinubung is bigger. Raeder has his ships going through the Greenland/Iceland gap and is guessing that in the worst case scenario he would face a two pronged interception from the RN.

Why not put up a U boat screen across the likely path of a force sailing from Scapa to the southern exit of the Denmark strait? He knows the dates and times when his ships will emerge into the Atlantic and all he has to do is position his U boats in a good place for a day or two?

Arrgh.

 

[usertron2020]

I never said they were in the Denmark Straits. A U boat screen across the likely path of the Home fleet converging on the Denmark Strait perhaps. (1a)

Remember that in this ATL Operation Rheinubung is bigger. Raeder has his ships going through the Greenland/Iceland gap and is guessing that in the worst case scenario he would face a two pronged interception from the RN.

Why not put up a U boat screen across the likely path of a force sailing from Scapa to the southern exit of the Denmark strait?(1b) He knows the dates and times when his ships will emerge into the Atlantic and all he has to do is position his U boats in a good place for a day or two?(1c)

Arrgh.(2)

1a,b,c) Except that everything he was doing was on the QT until well into the operation regarding Hitler. Maybe he could get away with what he was doing regarding the surface fleet, OK.

But you are forgetting one very important personality. Admiral Karl Donitz. The U-Boats were HIS babies, and the Convoy War his obsession. He wanted the entire Kriegsmarine war effort directed against England to be based on the U-Boat War, and essentially seeing the blue water surface fleet as auxiliaries supporting their efforts (as the Soviet Fleet one day would).

Moreover, most importantly from his perspective, he wanted U-Boats mass-produced, which wasn't happening on Raeder's watch. And would never happen with the German Navy winning big battles on the high seas with their surface ships. Anything he did as you suggest would be merely in a supportive role, with the surface ships winning all the glory (and the Fuehrer's interest).

Donitz was in a war with his commanding officer over limited resources for naval construction. He knew he was never going to get what he wanted until Raeder was gone and he was the new Gross Admiral (though OTL it was Goering who convinced Hitler to remove Raeder).

Considering the relatively limited number of U-Boats operational in the Spring of 1941, it would have forced the shutting down of the entire U-Boat War to put every available (not returning to port, being serviced for return to action, under repair, or overhaul) sub in the German inventory to create the screen you suggest. Hitler AND Donitz would have gone spastic, since considering the relatively slow speed of submarines and myopia (as scouts) the chances of any of them seeing any of those British ships, much less successfully engaging them in a torpedo solution, is extremely remote, to say the least.

Then there is the metaphysical certitude of Donitz finding out about Raeder's actions beforehand and as the loyal Nazi, rushing to Hitler screaming bloody murder about all the British merchant ships escaping cleanly to and from the UK for upwards of one or two months while the German Navy is setting up the creation of a submarine scouting screen. That presupposes the Germans would be expecting to have no surprise whatsoever against the Royal Navy, who were supposed to be in Scapa Flow "counting seagulls."

2) *Hole getting REAL deep*

EDIT: You know, nobody said the attack on the KGV couldn't have resulted in a combination of a harmless strike on the armor belt, and/or dud torpedoes. The Germans had a number of them early in the war.

 

[zert]

Torpedo attack?!

Well that line certainly got my attention. I will await your wakeful post to reveal what happened and to what degree KGV may be damaged, if any. Hope you will not use the old 'magic wand' and wave it away.

I do expect the second strike to do something to Bismark to put the more scare into the crew. Especially after the pronouncement by Admiral Marschall possibly foretelling Bismark's fate.

 

[Astrodragon]

Hmm, on a matter of a certin little hole...

Even if you decide to form a patrol line of U-boats to protect the sortieing fleet, you have issues. WW2 subs werent terribly good at shooting the right ship, and usually patrol lines were used to stop enemy ships from getting through (and to give warning). In this case we have the German ships passing through it (as does the RN). Mistake waiting to happen here....
You wont get the line set up without warning either, as ULTRA will know about it (it takes time to get such a line set up, during which all those little messages Raeder is sending out let the RN know where its going to be. As said earlier, it alos give the convoys a quiet couple of months...

There is also the issue of actually getting an attack off. The weather wasnt wonderful at the time, and the rougher the seas the more the sub has to expose itself. If they HAVE to distinguish the ship well enough to be certain its not the Bismark, we are pretty much tied down to a daytime attack here. And this is a fast BB escorted by destroyers, not a convoy where you can get into position and do something nasty when the escorts arent looking at you... You are going to get a lucky snap shot if you get anything at all.

It isnt impossible, but its awfully unlikely...and if theer isnt a deliberate trap of U-boats in the area, what is a U-boat doing there in teh first place...???

How about a loose floating mine? Its about as unlikely, but at least it doesnt suffer from the U-boat issues...
A mechanical problem is again unlikely (KGV was the Home Fleet flagship, and spent a (relatively) large amount of time in harbour getting looked after), but its possible. Just very unlikely

 

[tchizek]

Hmm, I like the idea of a mine that the KGV only thought was a torpedo attack. That kind of fits better. The Germans were mining the North Sea near Scapa Flow in the hopes of catching a Royal Navy heavy entering or leaving port. Maybe one of these? I seem to recall the RN taking at least some hits from German mines in the North Sea during this period but don't really have the inclination to try to look it up right now.

Tom.

 

[PMN1]

Hmm, I like the idea of a mine that the KGV only thought was a torpedo attack. That kind of fits better. The Germans were mining the North Sea near Scapa Flow in the hopes of catching a Royal Navy heavy entering or leaving port. Maybe one of these? I seem to recall the RN taking at least some hits from German mines in the North Sea during this period but don't really have the inclination to try to look it up right now.

Tom.

One of the carriers suffered a hit from a drifting mine in HMS Ulysses

 

[Devolved]

A mine. I will think on it.

 

[zert]

I think the mine idea may be a winner. Helps to get you out of the hole as well as add to the confusion and mixed up communication that would be going on in the middle of the battles. Might even add to the pain if it should be discovered that the mine was actually a run away BRITISH one.

 

[usertron2020]

I think the mine idea may be a winner. Helps to get you out of the hole as well as add to the confusion and mixed up communication that would be going on in the middle of the battles. Might even add to the pain if it should be discovered that the mine was actually a run away BRITISH one.

Why would a British mine be anywhere outside German territorial (or occupied) waters? But a German mine, seving only to DELAY KGV's appearance...OK.