Happy and Glorious.
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It was, however, how the FAA was expecting to make such attacks.
Not that risky for the flare dropper, its dark after all, and the flares ruin the AA crews night vision.
The FAA had trained for exactly this sort of attack (but never got the chance to try it in OTL) - they would certainly try it here, it offers far better chances of success (for the RN, damaging and slowing a battleship this far from base is a definate win).
Hmm, will be interesting to see if the RN decide to keep shadowing (they have aircraft this time) until they get reinforced. Given that they have the location of the German fleet, convoy escorts such as Rodney would be detached asap, they did it in OTL even thoutgh they had lost contact!
The weather was bad, but the RN also have aircraft staging out of Iceland as well which can help keep contact.
I wouldnt have thought Holland would accept an engagement if he knows his reinforcements are on teh way and contact is being held, the odds arent actually that good unless teh swordfish can do something spectacular. His best bet is to use them to try and slow the German fleet down, then he can reinforce and destroy at his leisure.
Still a bit puzzled re Hood vx Bismark and PoW vs Gneisnau. It would make more sense (if he has to engage at these odds) for PoW to take Bismark (her armours is far better) and pin her while using the Hood to eliminate (or at least neutralise) the Gneisnau allowing a 2 on 1 against Bismark. The suggested breakdown leaves the vulnerable Hood against teh bigger guns, while the PoW's poor gunnery and problems allows Gneisnaut far more time and hope for some hits. Its not a sensible option.
The weather was bad, but the RN also have aircraft staging out of Iceland as well which can help keep contact.
I wouldnt have thought Holland would accept an engagement if he knows his reinforcements are on teh way and contact is being held, the odds arent actually that good unless teh swordfish can do something spectacular. His best bet is to use them to try and slow the German fleet down, then he can reinforce and destroy at his leisure.
Still a bit puzzled re Hood vx Bismark and PoW vs Gneisnau. It would make more sense (if he has to engage at these odds) for PoW to take Bismark (her armours is far better) and pin her while using the Hood to eliminate (or at least neutralise) the Gneisnau allowing a 2 on 1 against Bismark. The suggested breakdown leaves the vulnerable Hood against teh bigger guns, while the PoW's poor gunnery and problems allows Gneisnaut far more time and hope for some hits. Its not a sensible option.
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I totally agree with this. This thread has been very interesting so far, but the way this is taking shape doesn't make any sense. Admiral Holland is no fool, and only a fool would engage in a fair fight when he doesn't have to. Knowing that pretty much the entire complement of KM heavy ships are being shadowed gives him the opportunity to concentrate his forces and outnumber the KM.
Happy and Glorious
continued
Hitler didn't know much about warships except that they looked impressive on newsreels and were very expensive. How many more panzers could he have had for 'Operation Barbarossa' if he had only cancelled Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Bismarck, Tirpitz....?
Hitler had a lot of things on his mind in the final week of May. The news from the invasion of Crete was unsettling to say the least but he was assured that victory was only a matter of time. Then there was 'Barbarossa', the culmination of everything he had ever worked for about to be launched within a month. Does Stalin know he's coming? Would he lose his army like Napoleon lost his? No of course not. Unlike Napoleon he had thought of everything. His army was ready and above all it was GERMAN. If you overlook the Romanians, Hungarians and Slovaks of course.
He was still thinking of Hess. Ah well never mind. Then came the call from Admiral Raeder. At first Hitler thought he was joking but then he remembered that no one joked with him anymore. He was told that the cream of his surface fleet was on an exercise in the Norway/Iceland region (which he vaguely remembered allowing) and that an opportunity had suddenly presented itself for an attack on a British convoy. Admiral Raeder said that he wished to use the opportunity of having such a large force at sea to deliver an unexpected and shattering blow to the British. He hoped that the Fuhrer would approve. In order not to waste time he had already sent the ships on an interception course. If the Fuhrer disapproves then all he has to do was order a return to base.
Hitler sighed. So far in the war his surface ships had brought little good news and all he could think of was the Graf Spee scuttling itself and the Scharnhorst sinking off Norway. His intuition told him to order a recall but he needed to do some thinking first. Unfortunately Raeder had not told him that his force was already in the Denmark Strait. By the time Hitler finished thinking it was too late. Luckily for Raeder Hitler gave his consent.
The Captain of the HMS Glorious was mortified at the arrival of the Admiral Hipper. Had they walked into an ambush? Her destroyer escort knew what to do and attempted to draw the Hipper away. It was dark and all he could see were flashes on the horizon. A ball of flame had told him that one of the destroyers had been hit.
The honour of scoring the first hit of the Battle of Iceland had gone to the Admiral Hipper and the first dead sailors were British. There were two of them.
Many more would follow.
TBC
continued
Hitler didn't know much about warships except that they looked impressive on newsreels and were very expensive. How many more panzers could he have had for 'Operation Barbarossa' if he had only cancelled Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Bismarck, Tirpitz....?
Hitler had a lot of things on his mind in the final week of May. The news from the invasion of Crete was unsettling to say the least but he was assured that victory was only a matter of time. Then there was 'Barbarossa', the culmination of everything he had ever worked for about to be launched within a month. Does Stalin know he's coming? Would he lose his army like Napoleon lost his? No of course not. Unlike Napoleon he had thought of everything. His army was ready and above all it was GERMAN. If you overlook the Romanians, Hungarians and Slovaks of course.
He was still thinking of Hess. Ah well never mind. Then came the call from Admiral Raeder. At first Hitler thought he was joking but then he remembered that no one joked with him anymore. He was told that the cream of his surface fleet was on an exercise in the Norway/Iceland region (which he vaguely remembered allowing) and that an opportunity had suddenly presented itself for an attack on a British convoy. Admiral Raeder said that he wished to use the opportunity of having such a large force at sea to deliver an unexpected and shattering blow to the British. He hoped that the Fuhrer would approve. In order not to waste time he had already sent the ships on an interception course. If the Fuhrer disapproves then all he has to do was order a return to base.
Hitler sighed. So far in the war his surface ships had brought little good news and all he could think of was the Graf Spee scuttling itself and the Scharnhorst sinking off Norway. His intuition told him to order a recall but he needed to do some thinking first. Unfortunately Raeder had not told him that his force was already in the Denmark Strait. By the time Hitler finished thinking it was too late. Luckily for Raeder Hitler gave his consent.
The Captain of the HMS Glorious was mortified at the arrival of the Admiral Hipper. Had they walked into an ambush? Her destroyer escort knew what to do and attempted to draw the Hipper away. It was dark and all he could see were flashes on the horizon. A ball of flame had told him that one of the destroyers had been hit.
The honour of scoring the first hit of the Battle of Iceland had gone to the Admiral Hipper and the first dead sailors were British. There were two of them.
Many more would follow.
TBC
Perhaps its worth looking at the RN's options at this point.
They are shadowing the German force. The longer they can do this, the better the odds for them (they can concentrate quite fast, and the Germans are, at the moment, steaming deeper into the noose).
Ideally, Holland needs to make sure the shadowing continues, and the best way to do this is an airstrike on B or G. Any damage that slows either of the 2 heavy units works for him, either the Germans have to abandon one of them or everything slows down, and his reinforcements join that much faster.
A night airstrike is the obvious way - the FAA trained for this, they were the only carrier force in WW2 who had - and Glorious is close. He'll probably get a couple of strikes at least in, its very likley he will get a few hits, and while they may not do a lot of damage, any slowing of the fleet is good.
He will only attempt an attack at the current odds if it is the only way to stop the Germans breaking contact. The RN didnt flinch from accepting battle at odds, but that didnt mean they didnt preferto mob up on the opposition
In addition to the KGV, Rodney and Victorious, there is also Force H, who would by now be heading up from Gib - that gives them Ark Royal as well. Mmm, a 3 carrier strike against the German fleet could be tasty.. If the Germans are dumb enough to sit around long enough.
Assuming the airstrikes do enough damage to slow the enemy down (which is likely, they dont need to slow them by that much), the RN will then attack with superior capital ships and close and sink (probably something like Rodney and KGV vs Bismark, Hood and PoW vs Gneisnau, cruisers and destroyers vs the cruisers). The RN will be looking to concentrate for a major action, ideally sinking the entire German force (which will pretty much eliminate the surface heavy unit threat). They wont be trying for a dodgy action with just the Hood and PoW unless they have no other options.
They are shadowing the German force. The longer they can do this, the better the odds for them (they can concentrate quite fast, and the Germans are, at the moment, steaming deeper into the noose).
Ideally, Holland needs to make sure the shadowing continues, and the best way to do this is an airstrike on B or G. Any damage that slows either of the 2 heavy units works for him, either the Germans have to abandon one of them or everything slows down, and his reinforcements join that much faster.
A night airstrike is the obvious way - the FAA trained for this, they were the only carrier force in WW2 who had - and Glorious is close. He'll probably get a couple of strikes at least in, its very likley he will get a few hits, and while they may not do a lot of damage, any slowing of the fleet is good.
He will only attempt an attack at the current odds if it is the only way to stop the Germans breaking contact. The RN didnt flinch from accepting battle at odds, but that didnt mean they didnt preferto mob up on the opposition
In addition to the KGV, Rodney and Victorious, there is also Force H, who would by now be heading up from Gib - that gives them Ark Royal as well. Mmm, a 3 carrier strike against the German fleet could be tasty..
If the Germans are dumb enough to sit around long enough.Assuming the airstrikes do enough damage to slow the enemy down (which is likely, they dont need to slow them by that much), the RN will then attack with superior capital ships and close and sink (probably something like Rodney and KGV vs Bismark, Hood and PoW vs Gneisnau, cruisers and destroyers vs the cruisers). The RN will be looking to concentrate for a major action, ideally sinking the entire German force (which will pretty much eliminate the surface heavy unit threat). They wont be trying for a dodgy action with just the Hood and PoW unless they have no other options.
I have seen some of the feedback and I am grateful. I am trying to combine logic, hindsight and the character of the people who would be involved in such a confrontation.
In this case I have Admiral Holland who OTL led the HMS Hood against the Bismarck with the Prince of Wales behind him. He also left his two heavy cruisers and destroyers out of it. He knew the Bismarck was around and yet he didn't decide to shadow until other forces arrived even though OTL the POW was able to continue to shadow Bismarck after the Battle of the Denmark Strait until lack of fuel forced her to withdraw.
So I am thinking that this tells me a little about Admiral Holland's character.
The King George V was on her way but too far to intervene soon and was OTL constantly in danger of not finding or catching Bismarck until her rudder was damaged by a swordfish.
The Rodney was too slow (supposed to be 23 knots but in practice less) and was only able to play a role because of the condition of the OTL Bismarck.
Force H barely knows what's happening yet.
So in this ATL I have given Admiral Holland a carrier and that's it. Instead of Bismarck and Prinz Eugen he has the Gneisenau against him too.
OTL Admiral Holland led with the Hood against Bismarck. Afterwards many, including I think Admiral Tovey of the Home Fleet wondered why he didn't have POW in the lead because of her better armoured protection. We will never know 100% because everyone on the Hood who knew anything died. So we have to assume.
I am assuming that Admiral Hood believed (in my opinion correctly) that the Prince of Wales was in no condition to fight a sea battle of this magnitude. Her crew weren't ready and there were still shipyard workers onboard dealing with teething problems. He probably believed that the POW would just be a glorified punch bag and get pulverized and may even be lost. Losing the Royal Navy's most modern Battleship in order to save the Hood would have looked callous even if it were logical.
In this case we have Gneisenau too. I By doing this I think we are at least forcing Admiral Holland to bring in the 2 heavy cruisers and the destroyers and I think he would put the cruisers on the Prinz Eugen.
The POW with her problems stood a much better chance of:
a) Surviving and b) Causing battle winning damage, if she is pitted against Gneisenau.
Hood had many weaknesses but in reality she was still fastest and most powerful ship in the British fleet and she matched the Bismarcks firepower and speed. Above all she had a largely experienced crew with fully operational turrets and she had a reputation.
If Hood took on Gneisenau then I am sure Hood would win but it would take time. Hood would surely get hurt in the process. If and when Gneisenau finally succumbs the Bismarck has probably already destroyed POW and will still be in a condition to take on Hood with no certainty Hood would survive.
Finally there's the issue of why fight at all. The British Admiralty was full of regret over lost opportunities in WW1 and was worried about letting the enemy get away in WW2. Admiral Holland runs the risk of losing the most powerful naval force the Germans have deployed in the war. Having a carrier isn't going to make him wait too much either. So far carrier aircraft haven't done much against fast capital ships at sea. They hit an Italian Battleship (Vittorio Veneto) in the Med but it still got away.
In this case I have Admiral Holland who OTL led the HMS Hood against the Bismarck with the Prince of Wales behind him. He also left his two heavy cruisers and destroyers out of it. He knew the Bismarck was around and yet he didn't decide to shadow until other forces arrived even though OTL the POW was able to continue to shadow Bismarck after the Battle of the Denmark Strait until lack of fuel forced her to withdraw.
So I am thinking that this tells me a little about Admiral Holland's character.
The King George V was on her way but too far to intervene soon and was OTL constantly in danger of not finding or catching Bismarck until her rudder was damaged by a swordfish.
The Rodney was too slow (supposed to be 23 knots but in practice less) and was only able to play a role because of the condition of the OTL Bismarck.
Force H barely knows what's happening yet.
So in this ATL I have given Admiral Holland a carrier and that's it. Instead of Bismarck and Prinz Eugen he has the Gneisenau against him too.
OTL Admiral Holland led with the Hood against Bismarck. Afterwards many, including I think Admiral Tovey of the Home Fleet wondered why he didn't have POW in the lead because of her better armoured protection. We will never know 100% because everyone on the Hood who knew anything died. So we have to assume.
I am assuming that Admiral Hood believed (in my opinion correctly) that the Prince of Wales was in no condition to fight a sea battle of this magnitude. Her crew weren't ready and there were still shipyard workers onboard dealing with teething problems. He probably believed that the POW would just be a glorified punch bag and get pulverized and may even be lost. Losing the Royal Navy's most modern Battleship in order to save the Hood would have looked callous even if it were logical.
In this case we have Gneisenau too. I By doing this I think we are at least forcing Admiral Holland to bring in the 2 heavy cruisers and the destroyers and I think he would put the cruisers on the Prinz Eugen.
The POW with her problems stood a much better chance of:
a) Surviving and b) Causing battle winning damage, if she is pitted against Gneisenau.
Hood had many weaknesses but in reality she was still fastest and most powerful ship in the British fleet and she matched the Bismarcks firepower and speed. Above all she had a largely experienced crew with fully operational turrets and she had a reputation.
If Hood took on Gneisenau then I am sure Hood would win but it would take time. Hood would surely get hurt in the process. If and when Gneisenau finally succumbs the Bismarck has probably already destroyed POW and will still be in a condition to take on Hood with no certainty Hood would survive.
Finally there's the issue of why fight at all. The British Admiralty was full of regret over lost opportunities in WW1 and was worried about letting the enemy get away in WW2. Admiral Holland runs the risk of losing the most powerful naval force the Germans have deployed in the war. Having a carrier isn't going to make him wait too much either. So far carrier aircraft haven't done much against fast capital ships at sea. They hit an Italian Battleship (Vittorio Veneto) in the Med but it still got away.
HMS Hood was not only experienced, but also quite well protected in a short range fight, as her protection would protect her well against flat trajectary shellfire, which hwer inclined 12 inch belt could take on with relative ease. The problem would be to get in this "Immunityzone" as mentioned somewhere else. Since the German gunnery was far more superior in both accuracy and rate of fire, due to their extensive training and more modern equipement, the Germans could still hurt HMS Hood, before she got into this Immunityzone. (As happened in the OTL.)
HMS Hood was however fitted with excelent, though slow rate of fire main artillery, but lacked a modern firecontroll, as her set was still the one fitted, when commissioned, never been upgraded and far more inferior than her weak deckprotection. To say it in other words: HMS Hood could simply not use her guns effectively at medium to long range, without assistance from a spotterplane (as at Mers El Kebir). Since only HMS Prince of Wales tried to launch a spotterplane in the OTL, but finally did not do so, due to catapult problems, this last option, that could have made HMS Hood an effective warship, was taken away.
HMS Prince of Wales however was state of the art and should be choosen to both lead the British line, as her protection was more superior, besides the fact that she had the state of the art equipement of modern firecontrol and radarsets, as HMS Hood only carried a general search radarset, compared to the Prince of Wales' three sets (Airsearch, Surfacesearch and Targetting Search), although some were never tested before.
Secondly, HMS Prince of Wales was armed with ten guns, although she would likely experience problems in the complex new turrets, as in the OTL. Her 14 inch guns were actually as powerfull as the older 15 inch ones on the HMS Hood, so her two gun advantage made her more likely to score more hits, when all things worked at least. So the HMS Prince of Wales was to engage Bismarck first, as that was the primary target to hit, before foccusing attention on the two other german ships.
HMS Suffolk was hardly usable to engage the German capital ships, as she alredy was low on fuel and lacked her torpedoes, which had been removed in an earlier refit, while HMS Norfolk was in a good condition to do serious damage to the German ships, as she was fully fueled adn had retained her torpedoes. The cruisers could however only engage, once the capital ships engaged first, as they all were too vulnerable and could not face the three German ships alone.
So in the new scenario, both British capital ships would start the engagement with both fireing on the Bismarck (if they could identify the three simmilar looking German silouettes at long distance at least). Since the approach would be again head on, the after turrets on both ships were not of any use, so only theoretically the ten guns facing foreward coudl bear innitially. One difference would be to have HMS Prince of Wales operating independently from the flagship, allowing her to turn her broadside on the Germans as it seemed her fit to do so. HMS Hood would charge on, untill in the Immunityzone and then turn her broadside to the German line. By then the HMS Norfolk could join in as well, whenever possible
Both British capital ships and the HMS Norfolk would concentrate their fire on the Bismarck, if still possible to be destinguished, until she was out of action. Then the Gneisenau would face the full brunt of the British, before turning against Prinz Eugen. A one on one battle is strongly advised against, as that would allow the german ships to optimise their excelent firecontrol on the heaviest ship, Bismarck, while Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen could not defeat the two British captial ships, being too lightly armed. (Except for the torpedoes of Prinz Eugen perhaps.)
HMS Hood was however fitted with excelent, though slow rate of fire main artillery, but lacked a modern firecontroll, as her set was still the one fitted, when commissioned, never been upgraded and far more inferior than her weak deckprotection. To say it in other words: HMS Hood could simply not use her guns effectively at medium to long range, without assistance from a spotterplane (as at Mers El Kebir). Since only HMS Prince of Wales tried to launch a spotterplane in the OTL, but finally did not do so, due to catapult problems, this last option, that could have made HMS Hood an effective warship, was taken away.
HMS Prince of Wales however was state of the art and should be choosen to both lead the British line, as her protection was more superior, besides the fact that she had the state of the art equipement of modern firecontrol and radarsets, as HMS Hood only carried a general search radarset, compared to the Prince of Wales' three sets (Airsearch, Surfacesearch and Targetting Search), although some were never tested before.
Secondly, HMS Prince of Wales was armed with ten guns, although she would likely experience problems in the complex new turrets, as in the OTL. Her 14 inch guns were actually as powerfull as the older 15 inch ones on the HMS Hood, so her two gun advantage made her more likely to score more hits, when all things worked at least. So the HMS Prince of Wales was to engage Bismarck first, as that was the primary target to hit, before foccusing attention on the two other german ships.
HMS Suffolk was hardly usable to engage the German capital ships, as she alredy was low on fuel and lacked her torpedoes, which had been removed in an earlier refit, while HMS Norfolk was in a good condition to do serious damage to the German ships, as she was fully fueled adn had retained her torpedoes. The cruisers could however only engage, once the capital ships engaged first, as they all were too vulnerable and could not face the three German ships alone.
So in the new scenario, both British capital ships would start the engagement with both fireing on the Bismarck (if they could identify the three simmilar looking German silouettes at long distance at least). Since the approach would be again head on, the after turrets on both ships were not of any use, so only theoretically the ten guns facing foreward coudl bear innitially. One difference would be to have HMS Prince of Wales operating independently from the flagship, allowing her to turn her broadside on the Germans as it seemed her fit to do so. HMS Hood would charge on, untill in the Immunityzone and then turn her broadside to the German line. By then the HMS Norfolk could join in as well, whenever possible
Both British capital ships and the HMS Norfolk would concentrate their fire on the Bismarck, if still possible to be destinguished, until she was out of action. Then the Gneisenau would face the full brunt of the British, before turning against Prinz Eugen. A one on one battle is strongly advised against, as that would allow the german ships to optimise their excelent firecontrol on the heaviest ship, Bismarck, while Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen could not defeat the two British captial ships, being too lightly armed. (Except for the torpedoes of Prinz Eugen perhaps.)
Happy and Glorious
continued
The captain of the Admiral Hipper had no idea that he was just 9 miles from a British carrier. He knew the Hood and a KGV class Battleship was somewhere out there and he had already been given the location of at least one County Class cruiser. Now he was engaging 2 possibly 3 destroyers in the dark. This was not good.
The flashes of gunfire on the horizon told Admiral Marschall that the Admiral Hipper was finally here. He was happy to have another heavy cruiser with him but worried that there was gunfire where he didn't expect it. Should he now return to base? If so what route should he take? Retrace his wake or go through the Iceland/Faroes gap? He knew that no matter which route he took he would have to fight. Daylight was 2 hours away. He issued new instructions.
A British destroyer was now sinking after being hit by an 8" shell with another dealing with a fire. Hipper herself had been hit by three 4.7" shells. A determined British torpedo attack had failed to score any hits but it caused the Hipper to turn away and head north west towards a rendezvous with the main German force.
HMS Glorious was now safe and had just been ordered to bring forward its torpedo attack on the Bismarck by one and a half hours. This wasn't a problem. No one on the Glorious was sleeping or relaxing after the Hipper appeared.
Admiral Holland now knew where the Hipper was and where she was going. Should he stick to his original battle plan. If he does he allows the Hipper to join the main force. He lets out a curse and then orders Wake-Walker to take his two County Class cruisers and intercept the Hipper. He expected to hear a lot of gunfire within 15 minutes.
continued
The captain of the Admiral Hipper had no idea that he was just 9 miles from a British carrier. He knew the Hood and a KGV class Battleship was somewhere out there and he had already been given the location of at least one County Class cruiser. Now he was engaging 2 possibly 3 destroyers in the dark. This was not good.
The flashes of gunfire on the horizon told Admiral Marschall that the Admiral Hipper was finally here. He was happy to have another heavy cruiser with him but worried that there was gunfire where he didn't expect it. Should he now return to base? If so what route should he take? Retrace his wake or go through the Iceland/Faroes gap? He knew that no matter which route he took he would have to fight. Daylight was 2 hours away. He issued new instructions.
A British destroyer was now sinking after being hit by an 8" shell with another dealing with a fire. Hipper herself had been hit by three 4.7" shells. A determined British torpedo attack had failed to score any hits but it caused the Hipper to turn away and head north west towards a rendezvous with the main German force.
HMS Glorious was now safe and had just been ordered to bring forward its torpedo attack on the Bismarck by one and a half hours. This wasn't a problem. No one on the Glorious was sleeping or relaxing after the Hipper appeared.
Admiral Holland now knew where the Hipper was and where she was going. Should he stick to his original battle plan. If he does he allows the Hipper to join the main force. He lets out a curse and then orders Wake-Walker to take his two County Class cruisers and intercept the Hipper. He expected to hear a lot of gunfire within 15 minutes.
sharlin
Banned
Didn't the Counties seemingly have critical systems seeking shells, the Dorshetshire hit the Bis's rangefinder OTL, the Suffolk hit the Scharhorsts radar when she was sunk, blinding her to the approach of the Duke of York. Perhaps some of the Counties shooting charm could help out here.
Just to clear up a couple of points.
Holland DID use his cruisers, they exchanged fire with Hipper. Obviously this all stopped once Hood was sunk.
Attacking Bismark at 2-1 odds (with 2 cruisers able to keep Hipper occupied), even if there are issues with both your ships, is good odds. No RN Admiral would have held back (although there are doubts about Hollands dispositions).
In this case however, the odds in capital ships is even, and Holland knows he has issues with both his big ships. His obvious course of action is a night attack from the air. The FAA had trained for this, and Holland knows that if he only damages one ship then the whole game tilts heavily in his direction. Even if they achieve no hits, he iasnt any worse off.
I dont know what his orders would have been in this instance - the RN gave a lot of freedom of action to its Admirals, but they did have orders and rules to obey unless they had a good reason not to.
One thing youve missed is that Churchill and Pound will (unfortunately) be interrfering, or trying to....
As to demanding action - the PoW kept shadowing Bismark, and made no attempt to engage after the Hood was sunk. Yet if the idea of the RN was to engage at all odds, she would have done so.. She didnt, and her captain was strongtly supported by CinC Home Fleet for NOT engaging when he didnt have to.
As for the RN not expecting much of the carrier -despite all the myths about a non-air-minded RN, this is just that, a myth. The RN concluded that until KGV and PoW were ready, the only way of stopping a breakout by the Bismark was - an aircraft carrier....!
They are going to use Glorious to attack, it isnt a spur of the moment thing its the expected way of slowing the enemy down (sinking would be lovely, but they will settle for slowing them, then mobbing them under. The RN doesnt fight fair when it doesnt have to (despite Hollywood)
Holland DID use his cruisers, they exchanged fire with Hipper. Obviously this all stopped once Hood was sunk.
Attacking Bismark at 2-1 odds (with 2 cruisers able to keep Hipper occupied), even if there are issues with both your ships, is good odds. No RN Admiral would have held back (although there are doubts about Hollands dispositions).
In this case however, the odds in capital ships is even, and Holland knows he has issues with both his big ships. His obvious course of action is a night attack from the air. The FAA had trained for this, and Holland knows that if he only damages one ship then the whole game tilts heavily in his direction. Even if they achieve no hits, he iasnt any worse off.
I dont know what his orders would have been in this instance - the RN gave a lot of freedom of action to its Admirals, but they did have orders and rules to obey unless they had a good reason not to.
One thing youve missed is that Churchill and Pound will (unfortunately) be interrfering, or trying to....
As to demanding action - the PoW kept shadowing Bismark, and made no attempt to engage after the Hood was sunk. Yet if the idea of the RN was to engage at all odds, she would have done so.. She didnt, and her captain was strongtly supported by CinC Home Fleet for NOT engaging when he didnt have to.
As for the RN not expecting much of the carrier -despite all the myths about a non-air-minded RN, this is just that, a myth. The RN concluded that until KGV and PoW were ready, the only way of stopping a breakout by the Bismark was - an aircraft carrier....!
They are going to use Glorious to attack, it isnt a spur of the moment thing its the expected way of slowing the enemy down (sinking would be lovely, but they will settle for slowing them, then mobbing them under. The RN doesnt fight fair when it doesnt have to (despite Hollywood
)Just to clear up a couple of points.
Holland DID use his cruisers, they exchanged fire with Hipper. Obviously this all stopped once Hood was sunk.
Attacking Bismark at 2-1 odds (with 2 cruisers able to keep Hipper occupied), even if there are issues with both your ships, is good odds. No RN Admiral would have held back (although there are doubts about Hollands dispositions).
In this case however, the odds in capital ships is even, and Holland knows he has issues with both his big ships. His obvious course of action is a night attack from the air. The FAA had trained for this, and Holland knows that if he only damages one ship then the whole game tilts heavily in his direction. Even if they achieve no hits, he iasnt any worse off.
I dont know what his orders would have been in this instance - the RN gave a lot of freedom of action to its Admirals, but they did have orders and rules to obey unless they had a good reason not to.
One thing youve missed is that Churchill and Pound will (unfortunately) be interrfering, or trying to....
As to demanding action - the PoW kept shadowing Bismark, and made no attempt to engage after the Hood was sunk. Yet if the idea of the RN was to engage at all odds, she would have done so.. She didnt, and her captain was strongtly supported by CinC Home Fleet for NOT engaging when he didnt have to.
As for the RN not expecting much of the carrier -despite all the myths about a non-air-minded RN, this is just that, a myth. The RN concluded that until KGV and PoW were ready, the only way of stopping a breakout by the Bismark was - an aircraft carrier....!
They are going to use Glorious to attack, it isnt a spur of the moment thing its the expected way of slowing the enemy down (sinking would be lovely, but they will settle for slowing them, then mobbing them under. The RN doesnt fight fair when it doesnt have to (despite Hollywood
I am trying to alter things a little now in view of some of the feedback. For example I have now had the torpedo attack on Bismarck brought forward so an attack before dawn is coming.
As far as POW was concerned I heard that Admiral of the fleet Pound wanted Captain Leach court martialled for breaking off shortly after Hood was lost. Admiral Tovey successfully resisted this but the mind set to attack even if the odds weren't great did exist.
Happy and Glorious
continued
HMS Norfolk and HMS Suffolk had broken away from Admiral Holland's force to intercept the Hipper. Thanks to the accurate reports from the destroyers and then to radar it was easy to find her.
The captain of the Hipper was glad to be away from the enemy destroyers. He had given them a bloody nose and may even have sunk one of them but at least one their torpedoes had passed very, very close. He didn't want to stick around and push his luck. A torpedo hit this far from base would doom any chances of the Hipper from getting home. He headed for the main German force.
Suddenly the bridge of the Hipper was caught in the beam of searchlights and the horizon lit up with muzzle flashes.
What historians would later call the Battle of Iceland was now well and truly underway.
The Norfolk and Suffolk had crossed the Hipper's 'T' and opened up with full 8" broadsides. Within a few minutes both the front turrets of the Hipper were knocked out and shells had plunged deep into the bowels of the ship. In a desperate bid to escape she had veered off to the south west and hoped to disappear into the gloom but after receiving nine 8" hits she was lit up like a torch. The County class ships gave chase maintaining a steady fire.
Admiral Marschall saw the muzzle flashes and knew that they were coming from British cruisers. Captain Lindemann looked askance at his admiral.
"Aren't we going to do anything? Are we just going to leave our comrades to have their ship shot from under their arses?"
"Captain Lindemann. Do I really have to remind you of who's in command on this mission?"
"Of course not admiral"
"Very well captain. Alter course towards the muzzle flashes. Let's see where this takes us"
The first swordfish is launched from the deck of the Glorious.
TBC
continued
HMS Norfolk and HMS Suffolk had broken away from Admiral Holland's force to intercept the Hipper. Thanks to the accurate reports from the destroyers and then to radar it was easy to find her.
The captain of the Hipper was glad to be away from the enemy destroyers. He had given them a bloody nose and may even have sunk one of them but at least one their torpedoes had passed very, very close. He didn't want to stick around and push his luck. A torpedo hit this far from base would doom any chances of the Hipper from getting home. He headed for the main German force.
Suddenly the bridge of the Hipper was caught in the beam of searchlights and the horizon lit up with muzzle flashes.
What historians would later call the Battle of Iceland was now well and truly underway.
The Norfolk and Suffolk had crossed the Hipper's 'T' and opened up with full 8" broadsides. Within a few minutes both the front turrets of the Hipper were knocked out and shells had plunged deep into the bowels of the ship. In a desperate bid to escape she had veered off to the south west and hoped to disappear into the gloom but after receiving nine 8" hits she was lit up like a torch. The County class ships gave chase maintaining a steady fire.
Admiral Marschall saw the muzzle flashes and knew that they were coming from British cruisers. Captain Lindemann looked askance at his admiral.
"Aren't we going to do anything? Are we just going to leave our comrades to have their ship shot from under their arses?"
"Captain Lindemann. Do I really have to remind you of who's in command on this mission?"
"Of course not admiral"
"Very well captain. Alter course towards the muzzle flashes. Let's see where this takes us"
The first swordfish is launched from the deck of the Glorious.
TBC
It was Pound (egged on by Churchill in one of his worse moments) who brought up the idea of court martialling Leach for not being agressive enough (a constant failing of Churchill, unfortunately).
The mindset existed in London, not in the fleet!
The suggestion died a quick and quiet death when Frazer (CinC Home fleet, the top RN seagoing commander) said that if it went ahead he would resign and then stand as prisoners friend (basically his defence council). Which shows what the people at the front end thought of it..
It wasnt the first time Pound and Churchill had pushed like this, they did something similar regarding Somerville and Force H. Again it was quickly and comprehensively squashed by other RN senior fleet commanders.
RN fleet commanders were agressive by any standards, but they also remembered there was not an infinite pool of replacements ships available, so all actions were subjected to a 'cost-effectiveness' calculation, both in terms of the benefits of the operation itself and the chances of degrading the enemy forces. Compare this to the equally aggressive Japanese admirals, who because they didnt do this calculation got their fleet destroyed to little purpose (when they could have least have made the USN bleed for it). This was expected of them at this level.
Now if you want to see what happens when you dont temper this aggression, look at the record of RN destroyer commanders in WW2....
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