A Glorious Union or America: the New Sparta

[TheKnightIrish]

Back to the War! When do we hear about proposals for Reconstruction? I imagine they are already being discussed.

I am working on the various proposals for reconstruction in the background. In depth discussions with continue during the next session of Congress. The Joint Committee on Reconstruction will make an appearance a year early and some of Thaddeus Stevens' more radical ideas will receive a much broader hearing (though some - like the CSA is a foreign country will be shot down for the same reasons)...

I am in the middle of a long update on the North Carolina campaign.

 

[WXL1815]

I am working on the various proposals for reconstruction in the background. In depth discussions with continue during the next session of Congress. The Joint Committee on Reconstruction will make an appearance a year early and some of Thaddeus Stevens' more radical ideas will receive a much broader hearing (though some - like the CSA is a foreign country will be shot down for the same reasons)...

I am in the middle of a long update on the North Carolina campaign.

So what are we talking here - executions/long terms of imprisonment/confiscation of property/denial of voting rights and public offices?

I seem to recall that Stevens' proposed large scale confiscation of plantations and its redistribution to ex-slaves and southern unionists. That might give those sections of southern society a power base on which to build, and coupled with the exclusion of ex-rebels from civil society might make the South very Republican for at least a generation.

 

[TheKnightIrish]

Chapter One Hundred and Five​

Marching Through The Carolinas​

Part II​

From “The North Carolina Campaign” by Thomas R. Yetters
Buffalo 2006

“On March 24, Kearny’s and Reynolds' Army of the Potomac crossed the state border and entered into North Carolina. The first confrontation occurred in the wilderness of Hanging Rock Forest and heralded the beginning of the North Carolina Campaign. At the bloody but inconclusive Battle of Hanging Rock Forest (March 31–April 1), Jackson sought to ambush Reynolds’ leading troops (Baldy Smith’s II Corps and Humphreys’ V Corps)…

Reynolds’ sidestepped the Gap near Boyles Chapel westwards towards Pilot Mountain and continued his advance on Salem with Hancock’s I Corps in the lead. Longstreet withdrew Jackson and remained on the defensive. Longstreet had built up a series of defensive redoubts north of the town with the left flank covering and resting on the Yadkin River. The right extended some distances towards Greensboro but petered out long before reaching that city…”

The Battle of Hanging Rock Forest was a confused affair​

From "Resistance from Within" by Lincoln Baines
Buffalo 1973

“Longstreet clearly understood the strengths and weaknesses of his position. If his opponents were in a hurry they might attack his works head on, as Longstreet wished. However if the Army of Potomac was patient it could use its superior numbers of extend around his flanks forcing him to abandon the town…

The township had been founded by Moravians and remained so in character. Longstreet used the tower of the Moravian Church of St. Philips often to view the northern horizon…

General Jackson would have been happy to abandon Salem to the Union Army. Many Moravians believed in the Southern Cause and indeed had enlisted. Those that remained however were not all favorable to the Confederate Government. The provosts believed that many Moravians in the area were in sympathy with the Red Strings from the west of the state. Furthermore more than a few of the African Moravian congregation has disappeared from the area – no doubt northwards towards the Union Army and freedom…

Security in the town was further tightened when a score of Longstreet’s “army ants” were found lynched at a burned out farm near Wilkesboro…”

From "Always The General - The Life of John Fulton Reynolds" by Jed Bradshaw
Penn State 1999

“Reynolds spent the remainder of April maneuvering and fighting minor battles with the Confederate army as he attempted to turn Longstreet's flank and lure him into the open. Reynolds’ understood that his larger army could crush Longstreet in the open. However, although Reynolds’ clearly had the more significant reserves of manpower, the lessons he had learned in 1863 had made him extremely reluctant to engage in a war of attrition…

It was in fact Dan Sickles who bypassed Reynolds’ reluctance for a direct attack on Longstreet’s works. Reynolds’ appeared to be moving his weight to the west to try a crossing below the town over the river. North of Salem, General Sickles felt that the rebel forces before him had been reduced to cover the rebel flank. Without consultation with Reynolds [who was west of the Yadkin looking at crossing points], Sickles launched an attack that would be known at the Battle of Rural Hall (April 19 – April 22). He chose to engage Anderson's troops directly, by ordering a frontal assault on the Confederate fortified positions on April 19th. The attack would draw in elements from Smith’s II Corps and Steven’s IX Corps. This attack was repulsed with heavy losses. Reynolds was furious with Sickles about Rural Hall but the fighting continued for another 2 days before petering out. Even New York papers which had been strongly partisan for Sickles in the past now voiced criticism…

Reynolds’ feint to the west was just that. On the night of April 29, Reynolds’ advanced by his left flank, marching on Greensboro. He planned to take Greensboro and then race to the south, bypassing Longstreet’s army, to seize its base at Charlotte. Longstreet’s army would then be isolated and unsupplied…

While Longstreet remained unaware of Reynolds’ intentions, the Union army improved and corduroyed several roads to aid their advance on Greensboro. What Longstreet had feared most of all—that Reynolds would trap him in Salem—was poised to occur…”

Duryee's Division goes in at Greensboro​

From “The Blue Eyed Prophet of War” by Robert Lee Thomas
Carlotta Press 1906

“General Jackson became aware that Union troops opposite his positions on the Yadkin River slipping away north. In discussions with Stuart, Jackson quickly realized the thrust of Reynolds’ plan. Jackson sought to achieve a success to dishearten the invader. He wrote to his wife, "I pray nightly for the defeat of any element of their army."

From “The North Carolina Campaign” by Thomas R. Yetters
Buffalo 2006

Reynolds' orders to Lew Wallace and Andrew Humphreys were to march on the night of April 29 over two routes, reaching Greensboro, 30 miles to the east the morning of May 2. This two corps would be closely followed the remainder of the Army of the Potomac…

Reynolds began by ordering Buford's Cavalry Corps to flank the eastern works of Longstreet’s defenses and cut off the roads from Salem to Greensboro.

The divisions of Devin and Wyndham would clash with cavalrymen under Fitzhugh Lee near Oak Hollow. Lee's men withdrew to a field west of the hollow, constructed rudimentary earthworks, and repulsed a series of Union attacks. Buford decided against continuing in the dark and ordered his men to bivouac at Watkin’s Farm. Their objective was achieved – Union cavalry encamped athwart the roads from Salem to Greensboro.

The first Union infantry began moving at 8 p.m. and their advance was plagued by traffic jams. When Reynolds’ reached Bellew’s crossroads after midnight he was infuriated to find Duryee's sleeping infantry and ordered them to resume their march.

Longstreet was still unsure of Reynolds' plan despite Jackson’s instincts. Reconnaissance told him that the river crossing equipment remained to the west. The Union Army could either be heading east to Greensboro or feinting a move in that direction before moving down the Yadkin River. In either event, the roads to Greensboro must be secured, so Longstreet ordered his reserve under Major General Dorsey Pender to begin marching eastwards to a position at Kernersville. Pender would later move further east to counter the Union advance. He also ordered General Jackson to be ready to move out with all but one division in the same direction. Jackson’s men were already prepared and, in a liberal interpretation of his orders, Jackson put Ewell’s division on the road eastwards about 10 p.m…

Lew Wallace and his men led the advance using Bellews Road. Shortly after dawn on April 30th Gregg's cavalry, leading the advance, encountered an unexpected stronghold at Stoke's farm northwest of Greensboro. Brigadier General Edwin Stoughton's men launched two attacks on the Confederates and captured a cannon (a serious loss to the artillery starved rebels), but the overall advance was delayed until early afternoon. Wallace renewed his attack, after delaying until about 7 pm, deploying a strong skirmish line that swept over hastily erected light earthworks on a 1 mile front, causing the Confederates to retreat to a weaker defensive line on Higgins' and Townsend Creeks just northwest of the town. Despite this initial success and the prospect of a virtually undefended city immediately to his front, Wallace decided to wait until dawn to resume his attack when Humphreys’ troops would have come up. The pugnacious and profane Humphreys urged an immediate pursuit and renewal of the fight.

Pender wrote later that Greensboro "at that hour was clearly at the mercy of the Federal commander, who had all but captured it." But he used the time he had been granted to good advantage. The arrival of the divisions of Major Generals Richard Ewell and Charles Winder allowed Pender to reinforce his line and not knowing the ground, Ewell generously deferred to Pender in the placing of his troops.

By the morning of May 1st, Jackson had arrived in person and had concentrated about 20,000 men in his defensive line, but this paled in comparison to the 50,000 Federals that now faced him (Wallace’s, Humphreys’ and elements of Smith’s Corps)...

William F. Smith takes personal command of the Irish Brigade briefly in the attack on Greensboro​

General Kearny had arrived with Major General William F. Smith's II Corps, and addressed some of the confusion. He personally carried out a reconnaissance of the rebel lines seeking weak points. Wallace, in temporary command of the Army of the Potomac then on the field (but under Kearny’s “supervision”), until Major General Reynolds arrived, prepared Smith's II corps on the left, his own IV Corps in the center, and Humphrey's V Corps on the right. Wallace's assault began around 12:30 p.m. as all three corps moved slowly forward. Jackson's men fought fiercely, erecting new breastworks to the rear as breakthroughs occurred. Either upon the arrival of General Reynolds on the field or at General Kearny’s instigation (sources conflict), a second attack was ordered and Brigadier General Willis Gorman led his division forward. The Irish Brigade, now under Colonel Patrick Kelly, refreshed and renewed after a period of rest and recruitment, led the attack. Although Winder's men managed to withstand the assault for over an hour, eventually the attack drove them back into the streets of Greensboro. The survivors dug along Market Street…

During the day, Jackson had expected reinforcements. Instead he was surprised to learn that General Longstreet had not only abandoned the Salem fortifications but was marching southeastwards towards High Point. To add to Jackson’s rising irritation Longstreet had directed those elements of Jackson’s own corps not engaged to move southwards as well. Longstreet’s direct orders to Jackson were to begin a fighting retreat and not to be pinned down in a general engagement, which the rebels could not hope to win.

Longstreet's engineers had already begun to lay out new defensive positions at Lexington, Thomasville and High Point, which the leading elements of Anderson’s Corps began to occupy later that night. Longstreet’s intention remained to bleed the Army of the Potomac dry by forcing to attack him in entrenchments but he would not be fixed and then trapped in them if flanked. He was also desperate not to loose any more of his artillery. Longstreet was trading Confederate territory for Union lives. It remained to be seen which would run out first…”

 

[Corder]

I think Reynolds has it worse with Kearny than Meade had it with Grant. Kearny seems to be more in love with war and rather more detached from the high level strategic stuff. Indeed Kearnt often acts like some green lieutenant (personal reconnaisses by the CinC!) while Reynolds is the cold calm professional. The problem is keeping your minions from acting like the boss e.g. Dan Sickles haring off and starting a big battle again no doubt indulged by his friend Kearny.

I also see Longstreet and Jackson falling out over tactics.

 

[TheKnightIrish]

I think Reynolds has it worse with Kearny than Meade had it with Grant. Kearny seems to be more in love with war and rather more detached from the high level strategic stuff. Indeed Kearnt often acts like some green lieutenant (personal reconnaisses by the CinC!) while Reynolds is the cold calm professional. The problem is keeping your minions from acting like the boss e.g. Dan Sickles haring off and starting a big battle again no doubt indulged by his friend Kearny.

I also see Longstreet and Jackson falling out over tactics.

Thats not a bad assessment. Kearny has a talent for war and has a hell of a lot of experience compared to his contemporaries on both sides. But his love of war and excitement and danger is up there in Patton territory. Reynolds (and Kearny's chief of staff Howard) are doing all the hard work in terms of managing the army and its logistics.

However Kearny is far too loyal and tolerant of his friends. Sickles is dangerous as a corps commander but in Kearny's eyes he has the best failing a general can have - he's too aggressive.

I have also realised that Lew Wallace is probably the senior corps commander in the AoP after Reynolds' now!

You are also correct that there will be a lot of tension between Longstreet and Jackson over strategy...

 

[TheKnightIrish]

So what are we talking here - executions/long terms of imprisonment/confiscation of property/denial of voting rights and public offices?

I seem to recall that Stevens' proposed large scale confiscation of plantations and its redistribution to ex-slaves and southern unionists. That might give those sections of southern society a power base on which to build, and coupled with the exclusion of ex-rebels from civil society might make the South very Republican for at least a generation.

I am very keen to hear more views on Reconstruction policies in a more radicalised environment. Also consider whether the war ends before the fall elections or after...?

 

[Admiral Matt]

I am very keen to hear more views on Reconstruction policies in a more radicalised environment. Also consider whether the war ends before the fall elections or after...?

I wish I knew more. I don't suppose you've gone through a Thaddeus Stevens bio? Or Andrew Johnson?

Y'know, watching Lincoln is even more melancholy if you have this timeline in mind. I assume you've seen it?

 

[TheKnightIrish]

I wish I knew more. I don't suppose you've gone through a Thaddeus Stevens bio? Or Andrew Johnson?

Y'know, watching Lincoln is even more melancholy if you have this timeline in mind. I assume you've seen it?

I have. I needed to - he is the hardest person to "channel" so far. His voice is hard to write.

I am researching Stevens ideas as well as those of some other radicals at the moment. One thing is for sure Reconstruction is going to live up to its name more in TTL!

 

[Seraph]

Well if Grant still becomes President still(presuming it still happens), he may have better success with reconstructing the South and maybe even with things like his plan to annex the Dominican Republic.

Though, instead of having to put down the KKK, he has to tackle a violent pro union group? Or both?

 

[Corder]

Well if Grant still becomes President still(presuming it still happens), he may have better success with reconstructing the South and maybe even with things like his plan to annex the Dominican Republic.

Though, instead of having to put down the KKK, he has to tackle a violent pro union group? Or both?

Grant is one of the few generals TKI hasn't indicated will run for President. I am expecting an Kearny presidency after Lincoln or perhaps Hooker. I think there will be a serious attempt to change the South utterly. I can see an entire generation driven from power; from their homes. A policy of compromise with Reconstruction or be driven under (or out to Mexico/Brazil as has been hinted).

Santo Domingo! Good call. I can see that kind of quixotic challenge being right up Kearny's street.

 

[mrmandias]

I am very keen to hear more views on Reconstruction policies in a more radicalised environment. Also consider whether the war ends before the fall elections or after...?

Lincoln will bow to political realities but keep in mind that (1) he is a masterful politician himself, (2) he was extremely forgiving and interested in reconciliation, and (3) he was also quite concerned with legality. That said, I think its obvious that the ATL Reconstruction is going to have more teeth than OTL, but my guess is that all things considered it will be surprisingly mild.

 

[fernerdave]

Well if Grant still becomes President still(presuming it still happens)

I doubt that Grant will have quite the same appeal ITTL that he had in ours.

 

[Admiral Matt]

TKI has gone on record that Grant will lead the nation to war as president. So.

 

[Corder]

TKI has gone on record that Grant will lead the nation to war as president. So.

I checked back - he says Grant will start a war but he doesn't hint at the presidency. I suppose you can start a war without being president. So we have Kearny, Hooker and Wallace presidencies. Maybe even a Rodman. All have been hinted or confirmed but no direct Grant hints yet.

 

[sloreck]

IMHO TTL one aspect of Reconstruction that will have teeth in it will be the legal and political enfranchisement of the African-American population. Because of the greater use of black troops in combat roles TTL and also the more visible atrocities committed by the CSA in this regard, the Union will not allow the gains to be as temporary as they were OTL where within 10 years blacks were disenfranchised. There are several ways this can happen: more Union troops for longer in the former CSA to enforce "equality", stronger laws passed to enshrine black enfranchisement (and Supreme Court Justices appointed over the next 10-15 years who will make sure these laws stick - no slide to Plessey v. Ferguson), and disenfranchisement of CSA leadership both political and military - such as anyone who had a political office under the CSA government or a military commission is permanently barred from voting or holding any political or appointive office. With stronger laws, stronger enforcement, and sidelining of the wealthiest and most politically savvy elements in the south for a generation Reconstruction can be made to stick. It won't bring social acceptance or equality right away (though sooner than OTL), but it will prevent the abuses of the post Reconstruction which condemned African-Americans to segregation with poverty, political impotence, and limited educational opportunities.

Of course, the expected trials you'll see TTL will be a warning. Also, I can see the federal government strangling the KKK in its cradle, and N.B. Forrest ending up on the end of a rope for founding it (assuming he does not pull a "Ft Pillow" TTL which gets him hung at the end of the war).

 

[fernerdave]

Thats how I rememberd it..He still has another war to fight, but not as a President..
How much in OTL was Grant just a tool of the "1%" ?? Was he just a big name, the one that Lincoln finnaly found that "won the war"? The only biography that I have ends in April of 65..

and Sloreck, your right but also there is the significant exodus of the Unreconstructed Confederates. The state of Mississippi could maybe have an 80 or 90% negro majority? And once air conditioners are invented.....?

 

[Admiral Matt]

Thats how I rememberd it..He still has another war to fight, but not as a President..
How much in OTL was Grant just a tool of the "1%" ?? Was he just a big name, the one that Lincoln finnaly found that "won the war"? The only biography that I have ends in April of 65..

and Sloreck, your right but also there is the significant exodus of the Unreconstructed Confederates. The state of Mississippi could maybe have an 80 or 90% negro majority? And once air conditioners are invented.....?

Ah, okay.

Thing is about population movements - if it comes to 80-90% that isn't an exodus any more. That's the kind of numbers you get out of ethnic cleansing.

 

[WXL1815]

Thats how I rememberd it..He still has another war to fight, but not as a President..
How much in OTL was Grant just a tool of the "1%" ?? Was he just a big name, the one that Lincoln finnaly found that "won the war"? The only biography that I have ends in April of 65..

and Sloreck, your right but also there is the significant exodus of the Unreconstructed Confederates. The state of Mississippi could maybe have an 80 or 90% negro majority? And once air conditioners are invented.....?

I think Grant was a bit of a tool for others. If Hooker becomes president he may fall into the same category - especially if his best friend is still the crooked Dan Butterfield who tried to corner the gold market with Gould & Fisk as Assistant Secretary of the Treasury. Imagine if he was the Secretary under Hooker!

 

[mrmandias]

I can't see Lincoln going along with ethnic cleansing or wholesale confiscation of planter's land, anything like that.

But if fighting in the South of a sorts continues, so that he can convince himself that its a war measure, I could see him agreeing to county-level land swaps and purchases designed to make a few black-run counties. Lincoln flirted with colonization OTL because he was sceptical that blacks and whites would really integrate all that well. Of course the pioneer battallions have probably changed his mind somewhat. But Lincoln was always fairly conservative and not the sort who tried to force social change on the unwilling.

 

[Corder]

I can't see Lincoln going along with ethnic cleansing or wholesale confiscation of planter's land, anything like that.

But if fighting in the South of a sorts continues, so that he can convince himself that its a war measure, I could see him agreeing to county-level land swaps and purchases designed to make a few black-run counties. Lincoln flirted with colonization OTL because he was sceptical that blacks and whites would really integrate all that well. Of course the pioneer battallions have probably changed his mind somewhat. But Lincoln was always fairly conservative and not the sort who tried to force social change on the unwilling.

Can a Radical Congress press ahead without Lincoln's consent? Do the Veto override rules apply back in 1864? Lincoln might go a lot further prior to the fall elections to ensure re-election unchallenged from the radicals and before a load more radicals are elected to Congress who could press on without him.