How does the worlds greatest tactician eliminate all the logistic constraints that you handwave away?
The General Barca
- Thread starter godofcoc
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Garrison
Donor
But you've admitted the premise is unrealistic, hence that is a valid criticism and every time the detailed reasons why its basically ludicrous have been pointed out you've simply dismissed them and invoked 'plot armour'.
Just to be clear the idea that one General however brilliant could decisively change the outcome of WW2 and change the actions of the Nazi regime is basically impossible.
Garrison
Donor
As best as I can see the OP can't tell the difference between battles fought with Iron Age technology, in a war the Carthaginians lost, and modern industrialized warfare. In addition to ignoring logistics and industrial production the OP has also decided that Germany will somehow abandon Nazi ideology because of the paragon of Generals and that all his enemies are doomed to behave like idiots, despite the clear evidence that the likes of Zhukov were a match for any remotely realistic German General. The OP isn't proposing an equivalent of the real Hannibal but a mythical version of the sort you would see in a particularly bad History Channel documentary.
Agreed.
And while I can't claim Livy is an unbiased source, it appears reasonable to infer that Hannibal wasn't a paragon of humanity.
He did, however, appear to be a fan of Destiny and Willpower and have a bit of a weak spot with logistics. So that would be a fit with the times.
Like others, I think it would fit better in the writers' forum.
If it isn't realistic (i.e. isn't plausible) it doesn't work in Post-1900.. Perhaps you would prefer a move to Writer's Forum?
I was just saying that the basic premise of my story was a bit outlandish, I promise that the rest would be strict fire and blood style history books which are very realistic.
No, he is very good at a few thing like scouting, planning and predicting the enemy. I remember a quote from Grand admiral Thrawn, “In the battle, the person who wins is not the person who has the most men but a person who is best prepared for the battle.” And my alternate general was clearly prepared for every single fight far more than Zhukov, he had the entire region stripped of all the resources (Basically using soviet terrain against them), that distracted and irritated the enemy. Then he used the terrain of Stalingard against Zhukov, ie heavily fortifying the enemy facing front and bombarding the volga river.
Till this, Zhukov might have expected. But Striking in the enemy’s rear while a good portion of units were in contact with the enemy’s front. That is what allowed him to win. And remember Zhukov would have totally been subjected to a degree of gurrila warfare on his way to Stalingard. Zhukov would simply not have the men to attack and feasible maintain the attack while defeating a enemy of 30,000 and 400 something tanks in the be rear. Zhukov is most famous for the siege of Leningrad, which was a defensive initiative. And defending is quite a bit easy than offensive as any reasonable person who is reasonable educated in siege warfare would tell you.
There must have also been other things that the best general in history would done, but I don’t even have the wildest idea what could have been done and best generals think out of box. He is like Grand Admiral Thrawn from Star Wars, and Hannibal Barca was just some who is closest to grand admiral in real history.
Stalingrad was of great strategic importance for both sides, as it was the largest industrial center of the Soviet Union and an important transport hub on Volga River.[41][42] Whoever controlled Stalingrad would therefore gain access to the oil fields of the Caucasus and would control the Volga.
This is from Wikipedia, and here it says the importance of Stalingard in the war effort. There was a reason Stalingard was the single most important battle of the Second World War. It would not be a understatement saying that this was the battle, which defined the fate of the entire world. And everyone here can reasonably agree that how I showed the first battle of Stalingard was semi realistic and would most certainly change the flow of the entire war,
This is from Wikipedia, and here it says the importance of Stalingard in the war effort. There was a reason Stalingard was the single most important battle of the Second World War. It would not be a understatement saying that this was the battle, which defined the fate of the entire world. And everyone here can reasonably agree that how I showed the first battle of Stalingard was semi realistic and would most certainly change the flow of the entire war,
Garrison
Donor
You realize quoting a fictional military leader doesn't improve your argument and if you think Zhukov isn't a skilled planner, and is most famous for Leningrad, well then it appears you have spent very little time reading up on the real history where there isn't a scriptwriter to gloss over the glaring errors in the antagonists plans and ignore the strengths of the other side.
ETA: Also Stalingrad was not the gateway to the Caucasus, in the original strategy it was only supposed to be a subsidiary action to protect the main force, diverting forces to seize it was a strategic blunder and left the Germans wide open to a counteroffensive, something the real generals had been worried about before Case Blue even started.
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Originally, North Africa was only supposed to prevent the Italian lines from collapsing. Then as strategic situation on the ground changed, the plans changed. Zhukov’s most impactful command after Moscow was Leningrad, his defence of Leningrad was very crucial to the soviet war effort and caused just as many casualties to the Germans at Stalingard. And the fact is even Zhukov can make a mistake, which can then be utilised by a very skilled commander.
There was not a single constraint that I hand waved, the Germans are still at Stalingard for all of winter. It is the soviets that move to attack the Germans. He also uses soviet gloves and caps for his army when they are marching in early spring, the defeat at both battles was logically in the sense that Stalin couldn’t afford to lose Stalingard without suffering a serious blow to morale.
Oh, this is getting good. Now I really need to know what sources are used by OP in writing this masterwork?
Gloves and coats from where? Delivered by Elephants across the Kavkaz from Tyre? Airdropped by African Swallows from Malta? Pulled from the Hasdrubals ass?
Gloves and coats from where? Delivered by Elephants across the Kavkaz from Tyre? Airdropped by African Swallows from Malta? Pulled from the Hasdrubals ass?
Garrison
Donor
North Africa is an excellent example of where the alleged genius of a commander, Rommel in that case, was meaningless in the face of poor logistics, an enemy with superior physical resources and competent leadership, Montgomery and others. Much like Stalingrad North Africa was a complete waste of German resources. The change of plan at Stalingrad was entirely down to Hitler and completely undermined the German strategy, which was already dubious at best. You are not offering up a coherent scenario just a series of assertions divorced from the reality of WW2. Perhaps you could share what sources you are using to create your scenario, beyond the fictional quotes of Admiral Thrawn?
Yes the Germans are at Stalingrad in the winter but one year early. Presumably using teleportation. After the encirclement at Kiev in 1941 there were very limited Soviet forces left to resist a German advance in the area but it didn't happen because of logistical issues. The German army did historically use captured clothing as well as looted civilian clothing in desperation in the Winter of 1941/42 so what you're suggesting isn't anything new let alone ground breaking best ever generalship either. I'm also intrigued as to how the devilishly cunning plan of digging in the front line that no one else has ever thought off is going to be conducted in frozen ground. Presumably a large supply of explosives/heavy construction equipment conveniently materialised to allow this to happen. Is your best ever general also a magician?
Oh no, Notzi Magics? Of course, how foolish of us all to forget that. I can barely wait for the part where General Barca goes to the Sikrit Notzi Moon Base, by the way of Notzi UFO, to finalise an alliance with the Galactic Empire, represented by Grand Admiral Fucking Thrawn....
While Allies and Soviets are unable to walk and think at the same time? Somebody call the mods, I think we have a winner for the Turtledoves.
Battle of Stalingard started exactly the same time as OTL. In sept of 1941. And digging in was exactly the same thing that Zhukov did in Leningrad. There was no magic equipment, there are using normal artillery that a army that size carries.
Stalingard was absolutely essential to soviet war effort. While I agree that pulling out after the Germans were being encircled was the right move, retreating before that was a bad decision without the power of hindsight, the greatest german mistake was under estimating the soviet reserve and that much is universally agreed upon by everyone.
And using captured clothing on a large unit wise scale was quite unprecedented as it removes unit cohesion. Also sometimes he is only going to sensible things just at a larger scale than the in canon.
A bunch of them from captured soviet warehouse in Stalingard and others stripped from dead
Soviet soldiers.