Most Pivotal Battle in European History

[IamtheEmps]

So I was wondering what you guys thought was the most pivotal, i.e. battle that affected Europe in the long run the most. Most basically changing the outcome of this battle is a POD that would see some of the most long term political changes.

Now while the most obvious one is Milvian Bridge, as that gave Europe Abrahamic Religion, possibly, I would argue the most pivotal is Manzikert. Now while the Sack of Constantinople, by the 4th Crusade, was the nail in the coffin, and the point of no return, I believe Manzikert is the battle that ensured that the Byzantines could never recover fully, i.e. secure the empire of Justinian, and no POD after this could reverse this. Similarly, Manzikert set up most of the religious dimensions to the Balkans ethnic conflicts, remembering that at the time the East-West Schism was possibly recoverable, as it was less than 2 decades old at the time, and caused the eventual rise of the Ottomans. Similarly, it also led to the Crusades, as it was essentially 1.5 Popes later that Urban II called the First Crusade. This is all to disregard the effects of the Rise of the Ottomans, with their effects in Europe.

However I could be wrong, so I would like to see what you guys think is the most pivotal and fire away.

For the purpose of Clarification, European means anything in effecting Europe, so you could argue a battle in the Americas etc, and also Battle means any Battle, Siege, or Naval Conflict, which would be interesting.

 

[wcv215]

Uh...Milvian Bridge?

Saw the official toleration of Christianity, and ultimately led to Theodosius making Christianity the official religion of the Empire. In addition, Constantine’s victory led to the Council of Nicaea, and in turn was a key part in forming the Catholic Church.

 

[Deleted member 97083]

Probably an unrecorded battle involving Proto-Indo-European tribes as they were colonizing Europe.

 

[wtw]

Waterloo, then Stalingrad and then Normandy

 

[Deleted member 97083]

Waterloo, then Stalingrad and then Normandy

Leipzig was much more pivotal than Waterloo. By the time of Waterloo, Napoleon had practically lost.

 

[wtw]

Leipzig was much more pivotal than Waterloo. By the time of Waterloo, Napoleon had practically lost.

Fair enough, it was the first battle that I thought of

 

[IamtheEmps]

Uh...Milvian Bridge?

Saw the official toleration of Christianity, and ultimately led to Theodosius making Christianity the official religion of the Empire. In addition, Constantine’s victory led to the Council of Nicaea, and in turn was a key part in forming the Catholic Church.

Well for one there is the debate as to if Constantine actually began his reign a Christian, or if it was a ploy. Furthermore, there are other points when Christianity can be introduced, such as the wars post the death of his sons. Similarly the formation of the Catholic Church, in its modern form, I assume, has far more to do with the shifting of Orthodoxy north to Russia.

 

[IamtheEmps]

Probably an unrecorded battle involving Proto-Indo-European tribes as they were colonizing Europe.

I mean you are probably not wrong, but that is much less fun.

 

[marcinL]

Waterloo, then Stalingrad and then Normandy

How exactly Normandy was pivotal? Germany was losing badly before, Germany was losing badly after...

 

[wtw]

How exactly Normandy was pivotal? Germany was losing badly before, Germany was losing badly after...

Normandy allowed the Western Allies to make sure France, the Low Countries and West Germany would not fall into Soviet orbit/control

 

[Enigmajones]

Koniggratz was pretty important from my point of view.

 

[Deleted member 97083]

I mean you are probably not wrong, but that is much less fun.

Slaughter at the bridge: Uncovering a colossal Bronze Age battle

About 3200 years ago, two armies clashed at a river crossing near the Baltic Sea. The confrontation can’t be found in any history books—the written word didn’t become common in these parts for another 2000 years—but this was no skirmish between local clans. Thousands of warriors came together in a brutal struggle, perhaps fought on a single day, using weapons crafted from wood, flint, and bronze, a metal that was then the height of military technology.

Struggling to find solid footing on the banks of the Tollense River, a narrow ribbon of water that flows through the marshes of northern Germany toward the Baltic Sea, the armies fought hand-to-hand, maiming and killing with war clubs, spears, swords, and knives. Bronze- and flint-tipped arrows were loosed at close range, piercing skulls and lodging deep into the bones of young men. Horses belonging to high-ranking warriors crumpled into the muck, fatally speared. Not everyone stood their ground in the melee: Some warriors broke and ran, and were struck down from behind.

When the fighting was through, hundreds lay dead, littering the swampy valley. Some bodies were stripped of their valuables and left bobbing in shallow ponds; others sank to the bottom, protected from plundering by a meter or two of water. Peat slowly settled over the bones. Within centuries, the entire battle was forgotten.

(More details in the original article)

 

[IamtheEmps]

Koniggratz was pretty important from my point of view.

Elaborate, please.

snip

Oh, okay, that is actually quite interesting, from the way you implied it seemed like you meant any old battle, obviously we can't be certain of that battles effects, but thanks for sharing.

 

[ar-pharazon]

Battle of Adrianople

Sack of Constantinople

Battle of Hastings

Battle of Guadalete

Battle of Tours

Battle of Veii

Battle of Marathon

Fall of Constantinople

Sack of Rome in 410

Battle of Chalons

Siege of Vienna(1683)

Failed Roman attempt to retake Carthage(not sure if that counts as a single battle)

Battle of Pavia

Siege of Cordoba(1236)

Battle of Lechfeld

Not a battle but Ogedei's death in 1241.

 

[TruthfulPanda]

If Manzikert counts as European History, then Yarmuk would be even bigger, no?

 

[ar-pharazon]

If Manzikert counts as European History, then Yarmuk would be even bigger, no?

I thought about including Yarmouk honestly. But then decided it was more pivotal to the near east then Europe.

 

[IamtheEmps]

Battle of Adrianople

Sack of Constantinople

Battle of Hastings

Battle of Guadalete

Battle of Tours

Battle of Veii

Battle of Marathon

Fall of Constantinople

Sack of Rome in 410

Battle of Chalons

Siege of Vienna(1683)

Failed Roman attempt to retake Carthage(not sure if that counts as a single battle)

Battle of Pavia

Siege of Cordoba(1236)

Battle of Lechfeld

Not a battle but Ogedei's death in 1241.

Can you narrow done to anyone? It is most Pivotal Battle after all?

If Manzikert counts as European History, then Yarmuk would be even bigger, no?

Obviously allot of this is personal judgement, but I believe that even if they had seen if the Arabs at Yarmuk Walid would have been able to continue fighting, however, there is some debate over the strength of unity of the Arabs, and if that is weak then maybe yes. However with Manzikert, I think it is more pivotal in the sense that the result of the battle is very important, Manzikert, was comparatively the most serious set back short of 1204 which was the point of no return.

Basically for me Pivotal means the future of Europe rests on "x" battle.

 

[cmakk1012]

If a campaign counts, I’d argue Napoleon in Russia should be up there.

Culturally, Marathon was an important point for the beginning of the rise of Greece.

EDIT: these are more battles where if the other side had won history would have been very different, not necessarily turning points

 

[ar-pharazon]

We have already mentioned battles in which there is no historical record-just archaeological evidence if even that.

So an unknown Bronze Age battle in 2500 BC could be far more important than any battles we have historical record of.

 

[wcv215]

Well for one there is the debate as to if Constantine actually began his reign a Christian, or if it was a ploy. Furthermore, there are other points when Christianity can be introduced, such as the wars post the death of his sons. Similarly the formation of the Catholic Church, in its modern form, I assume, has far more to do with the shifting of Orthodoxy north to Russia.

And I never claimed he was a Christian. I said he started the policy of official toleration and the Council of Nicaea, which was called by Constantine laid the basis of modern Catholicism.