"Io Mihailŭ, Împĕratul Românilor" - A Michael the Brave Romania Wank

Yes it is. At least theoretically. At least for now.
Greece wants it very badly. Sarmatia might get Armenia and other regions instead which are contiguous with its Black Sea Empire.

Interesting: A collection of ethnographical maps of the Balkans.
I really don't see that happening unless Romania cedes the entirety of the Aegean coast to Greece or Constantinople being an enclave.

Either way,Constantinople will probably never be capital unless Greece essentially kowtows to Romania to become it's unofficial vassal state given the city's too close to the border.

At any rate,I think don't think the Turks will ever give up Constantinople in any subsequent wars without going over their dead bodies.They are probably going to throw all of their resources and neglect other fronts just to defend it.
 
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Ryan

Donor
I will keep thinking about it. Maybe even a new city, build from scratch?

that would probably help prevent opposition to the capital moving (e.g. can't claim that your moving the capital to a Serbian city)

and it could be ttl's version of St Petersburg (a capital city built from scratch)
 

Zagan

Donor
I really don't see that happening unless Romania cedes the entirety of the Aegean coast to Greece or Constantinople being an enclave.

An exclave actually. And an exclave with unobstructed access to the sea is very similar to just another island. You simply ignore the terrestrial border and get there by ship.
And Greece has already lots of islands. And as I already told you, it will have Smirna and some other areas in Asia Minor. (Island like) Exclaves as well.
And Greece is very used with this kind of littoral exclaves from the Antiquity: most of the Greek City States on all shores of the Black Sea and the Mediterranian Sea.

And, NO! Romania will never accept to lack an Aegean Littoral.
 
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that would probably help prevent opposition to the capital moving (e.g. can't claim that your moving the capital to a Serbian city)

and it could be ttl's version of St Petersburg (a capital city built from scratch)
Maybe rebuild Sirmium?It was one of the capitals of the Roman Empire for a time.
 

Zagan

Donor
that would probably help prevent opposition to the capital moving (e.g. can't claim that your moving the capital to a Serbian city)

and it could be ttl's version of St Petersburg (a capital city built from scratch)

It may be feasable, yes. I will have to do some additional research about all this.
 
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Zagan

Donor
Maybe rebuild Sirmium?It was one of the capitals of the Roman Empire for a time.

Rebuild is really the word in this situation. It is nothing much left there!
But it has the power of history behind it, so... maybe. I put it on the list anyway.
 
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Rebuild is really the word in this situation. It is nothing much left there!
But it has the power of history behind it, so... maybe. I put it on the list anyway.
If you are going to build a city from the scratch,you may as well build it in a symbolic,strategic location!
 

Zagan

Donor
1. I really don't see that happening unless Romania cedes the entirety of the Aegean coast to Greece or Constantinople being an enclave.

2. Either way,Constantinople will probably never be capital unless Greece essentially kowtows to Romania to become it's unofficial vassal state given the city's too close to the border.

3. At any rate,I think don't think the Turks will ever give up Constantinople in any subsequent wars without going over their dead bodies.They are probably going to throw all of their resources and neglect other fronts just to defend it.

1. Already answered in a previous post.

2. Correct. Greece falling into Romanian sphere of influence in the future is likely. What allies can it have? Spain?

3. Correct again. However, the Ottoman Empire may vanish completely some time in the future. Or it may turn into an OTL-like Turkey, albeit smaller.

If you are going to build a city from the scratch,you may as well build it in a symbolic,strategic location!

Correct once more.
 
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Zagan

Donor
Next ITTL:
- Peace Conference (First Anti-Ottoman War 1622-1624)
- Second German War (just the basic facts)
- Peace Conference (Second German War 1622-162?)
- Post War Settlement in Europe
- Post War Romania
- More MAPS!

Question: Would anyone be interested in a special chapter about things like standardization of measures and weights, mathemathics and sciences?
 
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So, I'd like to say a couple of things about this TL. Firstly, it's been a fun read! Probably my most fun read of the summer, which is good!

I think actually one of the reasons I've enjoyed reading it is that it's covering much the same time period (1600-1625) that I'm researching right now for my own TL. In fact, there were a couple things that came up that when they came up I was like "Oh no! I'm not the only one to have that idea!" Definitely when I saw the map with Germany on it for the first time, I was worried that you'd had the same idea I did about having the Protestant/Catholic divide produce a permanent schism in the HRE. However, I can see that the way you've gone about it is very different than the way I have planned :)

Another thing I've been liking about this is that it's been putting my own worries about my own TL's plausibility to rest. Most of the time the stuff that's been going on here hasn't been enough to break my suspension of disbelief. But there's things like nationalism cropping up in the 1600s and causing a revolution in Germany by the 1610s that make what I'm doing look tame in comparison. Which, again, makes me feel better about my own writing. I think basically the difference is the idea of what a 'wank' is. For me, I'm trying to come up with a realistic story of how a barely agricultural Native American nation can rise to be a modern regional power over centuries, while you're doing the 'how much can we expand in one ruler's lifetime' wank.

I also wanted to let you know that I'm currently writing a post about a Hapsburg-Ottoman war in the 1610s that involves Wallachian, Transylvania, and Moldavia rising up against the Ottomans. I was originally going to put Mihai in as the leader of Wallachia of the time, but realized that, if he was still alive in the 1610s in my TL that he would have either already succeeded at throwing off the Ottoman yoke, or he would have died trying. So, instead, I assumed that he died trying and wrote his son P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; } Nicolae Patrascu in instead. I just wanted to let you know that it is totally due to the influence of your TL that I've included Nicolae in mine :)
 
Btw, it seems Mihals son is a bookish and unhealthy guy.

He probably cannot lead the army to war, which means he has to let somebody do it and its dangerous.

He may also die young and lead to a succession crisis, fortunately mihals daughter and her sons already give up the succession rights or things can be even more nasty.

Will this romania empire be just a one generation thing? Of coz not i know:D
 

Zagan

Donor
Btw, it seems Mihals son is a bookish and unhealthy guy.

He probably cannot lead the army to war, which means he has to let somebody do it and its dangerous.

He may also die young and lead to a succession crisis, fortunately mihals daughter and her sons already give up the succession rights or things can be even more nasty.

Will this romania empire be just a one generation thing? Of coz not i know:D

Prince Nicolae got a nasty lung disease (possibly tuberculosis, not known by the medical community as a separate disease at the time) while imprisoned by Bathory in Făgăraș (1600-1601).
He managed to survive (some people survived TB even in the Middle Ages) but remained frail and will not reach old age (he will die before Mihai).
He has one healthy daughter though who by Romanian Law is going to rule the Country. Even if she will not be a great Army Commander :), she might keep the Empire together for her son to expand further.
 
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Zagan

Donor
So, I'd like to say a couple of things about this TL.
1. Firstly, it's been a fun read! Probably my most fun read of the summer, which is good!

2. I think actually one of the reasons I've enjoyed reading it is that it's covering much the same time period (1600-1625) that I'm researching right now for my own TL. In fact, there were a couple things that came up that when they came up I was like "Oh no! I'm not the only one to have that idea!" Definitely when I saw the map with Germany on it for the first time, I was worried that you'd had the same idea I did about having the Protestant/Catholic divide produce a permanent schism in the HRE. However, I can see that the way you've gone about it is very different than the way I have planned :)

3. Another thing I've been liking about this is that it's been putting my own worries about my own TL's plausibility to rest. Most of the time the stuff that's been going on here hasn't been enough to break my suspension of disbelief. But there's things like nationalism cropping up in the 1600s and causing a revolution in Germany by the 1610s that make what I'm doing look tame in comparison. Which, again, makes me feel better about my own writing.

4. I think basically the difference is the idea of what a 'wank' is. For me, I'm trying to come up with a realistic story of how a barely agricultural Native American nation can rise to be a modern regional power over centuries, while you're doing the 'how much can we expand in one ruler's lifetime' wank.

5. I also wanted to let you know that I'm currently writing a post about a Hapsburg-Ottoman war in the 1610s that involves Wallachia, Transylvania, and Moldavia rising up against the Ottomans. I was originally going to put Mihai in as the leader of Wallachia of the time, but realized that, if he was still alive in the 1610s in my TL that he would have either already succeeded at throwing off the Ottoman yoke, or he would have died trying. So, instead, I assumed that he died trying and wrote his son Nicolae Patrascu in instead. I just wanted to let you know that it is totally due to the influence of your TL that I've included Nicolae in mine :)

1. Thank you. I am glad to have a new reader.

2. What is your TL? Would you want to post a link?
Well, I did have the same idea about the HRE at first, but I got over it. The Protestants got too powerful ITTL and it became unrealistic to leave a rump Catholic HRE alone.

3. Yes, TTL is wild. Unlikely things happened and will continue to happen regularly. Unlikely, not outright impossible.

4. TTL will not end at Mihai's death. TTL and Romania's expansion will continue (with its ups and downs) over the following 4 centuries. So TTL has a very long future ahaed!

5. This is interesting. You are making me feeling proud. Thank you.
Again, a link to your TL please.
 
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I.30. Peace of Alba Iulia

Zagan

Donor
The almost mythical image of Mihai grew in the National psyche,
matching the ever increasing length and breadth of the Country.


Peace of Alba Iulia



In the autumn of 1624, the massive struggle of Christian Europe against the Ottoman Empire ended in a colossal and historic victory.
This victory marked the greatest setback of Islam in its entire history, reverting to Christendom in only three years an area greater than that regained by the Iberian Reconquista during centuries.

The Ottoman Empire lost more than nine tenths of its Balkan territory, Crimea, all its Caucasus Lands, and all of Africa West of Cyrenaica. It had been badly stricken but not totally destroyed.
The Crusader Alliance had attained almost all its goals with the exception of the completely unreasonable ones such as the conquest of Constantinople itself. Yet, no one was satisfied, mainly because the losses in men, ships and money had been very high.

A difficult problem faced by the victorious Crusaders was that of the peoples left behind by the retreating Ottoman armies: the Berbers in Africa, the Nogays and Circassians in the Caucasus and the Greeks, Croats, Hungarians, Albanians and Montenegrin Serbs in the Balkans. The Crusaders would try to ignore them at the Peace Conference but would be obviously unable to ignore the facts on the ground afterwards.

Spain had lost more than 70,000 soldiers and about 40 ships and had managed to secure Oran, Algiers, Constantine, Bizerte and Tunis on the African Coast but very little of the still Berber interior. Tripolitania was still firmly controlled by the Ottomans. Several captured Aegean Islands were supposed to be valuable assets for bargaining purposes as they were of little value for Spain.

Venice had lost most of its Fleet and around 4000 soldiers and had only captured Southern Dalmatia and Valona. It had not been able to dislodge the Croats from Northern Dalmatia and decided to keep Valona instead. Initially, most of Northern Dalmatia had been assigned to Venice and Valona to Romania, but the unexpected Croatian Revolt had changed the situation.

The Knights of Saint John from Malta had lost all their warships and 800 men and got bankrupted without being able to conquer any land at all. In just four months they had exited the war and did not attend the Peace Conference. Less than a year later, they would peacefully become an autonomous part of the Spanish Empire.

Sweden had not fought for land but only for money which had been duly provided by the Pope. They had lost 6000 soldiers and 18 ships but perhaps their greatest loss was the death of their king, Gustavus Adolphus. They did not attend the Peace Conference either.

Rome had not provided any soldiers or ships, but only money to the common cause. They sent a cardinal to Alba Iulia to secure religious rights for the Catholic minority in the enlarged Romania.

The Cossacks did not attend the Peace Conference, opting instead for a bilateral agreement with Sarmatia. This would prove later to have been a very bad idea because, while Sarmatia recognized their territorial gains, their purported independence was never recognized by any other European Power.

Sarmatia had lost less than 20,000 men and most of its Black Sea Fleet, but had gained more territory than expected, all the valuable Eastern Coast of the Black Sea from the River Don to the Georgian border. It had failed to get Constantinople, of course.

The Georgians, immediately after liberating themselves from Ottoman rule, had accepted Sarmatian suzerainty in order to get protection against any future Ottoman attacks. They were represented at the Peace Conference by Sarmatia.

The Nogays, the Circassians and the Berbers were not invited.

Morocco, although assigned to Spain according to the Lisbon Treaty, had not been attacked and thus had not been a belligerant.

The Armenians had been completely defeated by the Ottomans and Eastern Armenia had been occupied by Persia.

Slovakia had attained all its territorial goals. It participated in the Peace Conference in order to get its independence officially recognized and to represent the interests of the Croats who had not been invited.

The Greeks, Croats, Hungarians, Albanians, Serbs, Bulgarians and other Balkan Christians had not been invited. The other Powers would decide their fate according to their own interests.

Romania and the Balkan Romanians had lost 110,000 men, more than the rest of the Crusaders combined, and felt entitled to the greatest spoils of war. It was soon realized however that parts of the huge area tentatively assigned to it in the Lisbon Treaty would go to the Ottoman Empire, Greece, Venice, Croatia and even Germany. The feeling of betrayal would creep in, but the doubling of Romania's territory would eventually soothe the resentiments.


25 November 1624 - 13 January 1625, Alba Iulia

Diplomats from the Ottoman Empire, Spain, Venice, Sarmatia, Slovakia and Romania met in the Romanian Capital and participated in long and arduous negotiations.


1-22 January 1625, Ottoman Hungary

The already intricate geopolitical situation was further complicated by the German invasion of Ottoman Hungary, which was still under Ottoman occupation while claimed in its entirety by Romania as well as by the Hungarians themselves.
The large number of Ottoman soldiers trapped in Ottoman Hungary could easily defend themselves against the small German invading force under normal circumstances. The problem was that the current situation was far from normal, because the army knew very well that Ottoman Hungary was lost anyway.

This turn of events prompted the rapid conclusion of the peace negotiations because at that moment Romania contemplated the dreadful possibility of a new war, this time against the German Empire.


14 January 1625, Alba Iulia

Peace Treaty of Alba Iulia

I. The war between the Ottoman Empire on one side and an alliance of the Spanish Empire, Sarmatia, Venice, Romania, Slovakia, Sweden and Rome on the other side is over with the defeat of the Ottoman Empire.

II. The former belligerants will attempt to mantain peace in the future and will refrain from any infringements of this treaty.
If, however, any provisions of this treaty will be infringed by either party, the other party is entitled to recourse to any means, including war, in order to thoroughly enforce this treaty.


III. The Ottoman Empire cedes to the Spanish Empire all lands West of a meridian passing through the Southernmost point of the Gulf of Sirte.
The border between the Ottoman and Spanish Empires will be the border between the Ottoman province of Cyrenaica and the Spanish territory of Tripolitania.
The Ottoman Empire will remove its armies and administration from Tripolitania and transfer it to the Spanish Empire in good order.


IV. The Ottoman Empire unilaterally renounces any suzerainty or control it has previously enjoyed de facto or de jure over any peoples in the area ceded to the Spanish Empire.
The Ottoman Empire vows to never support in any way the peoples from that area in their current or any future wars against the Spanish Empire.


V. The Spanish Empire and Sweden will return to the Ottoman Empire all islands and territories situated in the Eastern and Northern parts of the Aegean Sea.

VI. The Ottoman Empire cedes to Sarmatia the Crimean Peninsula, the Fortress of Azov and all the territories situated in the Caucasus, North of the country of Georgia.
Georgia will be under Sarmatian suzerainty and protection.
Sarmatia shall divide those Caucasian territories with the Cossacks in any way they will see appropriate and with no interference from the Ottoman Empire.


VII. The Ottoman Empire unilaterally renounces any suzerainty or control it has previously enjoyed de facto or de jure over any peoples in the area ceded to Sarmatia.
The Ottoman Empire vows to never support in any way the peoples from that area in their current or any future wars against Sarmatia or any other Power.

VIII. The Ottoman Empire renounces its suzerainty over Romania and Slovakia and acknowledges the complete independence of Romania and Slovakia.

IX. The Ottoman Empire cedes to the Allies all its European territories up to a new border as detailed on the annexed map, which is an integral part of this Treaty.
Romania, Slovakia and Venetia shall divide those territories in any way they will see appropriate and with no interference from the Ottoman Empire.
Independent States for the Greeks, Croats and Hungarians shall be created within the ceded territories.
The Aegean border of the Ottoman Empire will pass through the centre of the Aegean Sea.


X. The signatories will not interfere in any way in the peace negotiations between the Ottoman Empire and Persia.

XI. Sweden and Rome have no claims upon any Ottoman territory.

XII. Romania guarantees full religious freedom to all its inhabitants.

XIII. All the Romanians from the Ottoman Empire, defined as those people who either are of Romanian Orthodox faith or speak Romanian as their native tongue, are placed under the protection of Romania.

XIV. The Muslims from the lands ceded by the Ottoman Empire have the right to emigrate to the Ottoman Empire if they so choose.
The Christians from the Ottoman Empire have the right to emigrate to a Christian country of their choice provided that that country accepts them.


XV. All ships have the right to pass free of charge through the Turkish Straits during peace time.

XVI. Neither Romania nor the Ottoman Empire will keep any military closer than twenty miles from their common border with the exception of small police forces necessary for maintaining law and order in their respective demilitarized strips of land.

XVII. All Christian slaves in the Ottoman Empire are freed immediately. No Christians shall ever again be enslaved or bought by the Ottoman Empire.


XVIII. All prisoners of war shall be exchanged or redeemed.

XIX. The Ottoman Empire will pay a war indemnity to the Allies as detailed in the annex. Since the Ottoman Empire does not have that amount of money, smaller annual payments will be made for a duration of twenty years.

XX. The Ottoman armies from Dobrudja, Albania, Epirus, Serbia and Hungary have the right to pass freely through Romanian territory on their way home.

XXI. The Spanish, Swedish and Romanian armies will retreat from the territories which by the provisions of this Treaty will remain Ottoman.
Likewise, the Ottoman armies will retreat from the territories which the Ottoman Empire ceded in this Treaty.


XXII. All exchanges of territory will be concluded as fast as possible and no later than eight weeks from the signing of this Treaty.

Signed today, 14 January 1625 Ceasarian Calendar / 25 January 1625 Gregorian Calendar,

Representing the Ottoman Empire, ............
Representing the Empire of Spain, ............
Representing the Kingdom of Sarmatia, ............
Representing the Republic of Venice, ............
Representing the Principality of Romania, ............
Representing the Principality of Slovakia, ............
Representing the Holy See, ............
 
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Zagan

Donor
sweet, i love it
i can't wait to see the future romanian colonial empire:D

Thank you.

For the future (and rather small) Colonial Empire, you will have to wait at least 10 chapters. Sorry about that.

Maps... Tonight.
 
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Zagan

Donor
awesome :D

how is vlad the impaler viewed in ttl?

In TTL Romania, the same as in OTL Romania: A Great National Hero.

In TTL Medieval Europe, the same as in OTL Medieval Europe: Neutral; he fought with the Turks.

In TTL Present Day World: Neutral, because no Bram Stoker.

Vlad Dracul, named Țepeș (the Impaler), from the House of Drăculești, is a direct ancestor of Mihai Viteazul, the first TTL Romanian Emperor and thus an ancestor of TTL Romania's Imperial House and of all subsequent Romanian Emperors.
 
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