Chiang Kai-Shek goes to Germany: An Axis China Timeline

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The Sandman

Banned
Well, another alternative could just be that as the NRA is heading into Shandong the Japanese attack them. Aside from any promises the Beiyang government may have made regarding territory, the Japanese do have a vested interest in keeping China disunited. So they gladly seize the opportunity to be invited into China in the interests of smashing the KMT.

Of course, this also means that they're likely to cement their control over the Shandong Peninsula in the process, which will have interesting political ramifications.
 

Empee

Banned
China in the Axis would mean big win for the Allies-it probably means Japan in the Allies camp or friendly neutral(but hard to see it).
In all the Chinese state at the time required enormous decade long efforts in order to rival Japan or Western powers. It has neither Navy nor ability to create one to challenge Japanese islands, and the Korean peninsula is in good defensive position. The colonial holdings in Indochina, Hong Kong could be threatened but further conquests are unlikely. Australia, and to lesser extent India are quite safe.
This means that Allies from the start of the war(if it happens in similiar way as in OTL) are in great position versus Germany-most of the Pacific fleet of the British Empire can be directed to defense of Atlantic and Britain. It would make the naval battles that were happening in OTL easier and shorter for the Allies. Air assets and pilots diverted from Pacific that were there in OTL would also lend a hand in Battle for Britain.So in all the Allies are in better position then in OTL. Also expect battles for Africa to be shorter with more troops from Pacific available.
SU is in slight disadvantage-as Germans might abandon plans to invaded or seriously fight England and focus resources spent there in OTL on attack against SU, and Chinese army might pose some disruption.
But in all it wouldn't face destruction, only some smaller gains postwar.
An interesting case would be Japan if in Allied camp and its postwar fate as fascist state with racial doctrine.
 

Paul MacQ

Monthly Donor
Empee said:
China in the Axis would mean big win for the Allies-it probably means Japan in the Allies camp or friendly neutral(but hard to see it).
In all the Chinese state at the time required enormous decade long efforts in order to rival Japan or Western powers. It has neither Navy nor ability to create one to challenge Japanese islands, and the Korean peninsula is in good defensive position. The colonial holdings in Indochina, Hong Kong could be threatened but further conquests are unlikely. Australia, and to lesser extent India are quite safe.
This means that Allies from the start of the war(if it happens in similiar way as in OTL) are in great position versus Germany-most of the Pacific fleet of the British Empire can be directed to defense of Atlantic and Britain. It would make the naval battles that were happening in OTL easier and shorter for the Allies. Air assets and pilots diverted from Pacific that were there in OTL would also lend a hand in Battle for Britain.So in all the Allies are in better position then in OTL. Also expect battles for Africa to be shorter with more troops from Pacific available.
SU is in slight disadvantage-as Germans might abandon plans to invaded or seriously fight England and focus resources spent there in OTL on attack against SU, and Chinese army might pose some disruption.
But in all it wouldn't face destruction, only some smaller gains postwar.
An interesting case would be Japan if in Allied camp and its postwar fate as fascist state with racial doctrine.
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Starting point here is from story line
The Centre Cannot Hold: China during the Warlord Period 1919-1929
1919 - the Year of Revolution:"
. what about 2 Decades "time required enormous decade long effort"
A China does not need to build a Traditional Navy with Battle wagons and the like to threaten Japan,
Subs and shore Based Aircraft would can do that , now who needs a place to rebuild a Aicraft Design and Building infrastructure Oh the Germans, maybe they can help.
Who will need in the years to come a place to Build new Prototype Subs out of the eye of the Powers in Europe , Oh Germany again.

Germany will need Raw Materials who might have some they need (damn long way to get them, But if being handed out Cheap might be worth it) Allot of this China has, (I am talking Trade as both nations strapped for cash )
But China will need to build its Infrastructure up again were to get some of the best Engineers and Trade school experts.

This is a Period that the Soviet Union is rebuilding almost from scratch with an Infrastructure almost as in bad a condition as the Chinese and they built that up with very little outside help. If China Can rebuild 1/3 as well as the USSR did between 1919 and 1939 she will be a Industrial powerhouse to compare with Japan at least. Big ask but possible and I am thinking far from ASB

Germany is also a wreck but has a number of things Chinese Military might find useful like disused Ammunition Factories and little things like all the Tools for Making a 77mm field Gun, say they go as scrap to China yes get reused, This is a possible ally that might be more useful in the long run than the Secret Testing grounds the Germans built in Soviet union and the Tech Trade would be more useful.

Biggest obstacle Distance and Logistics, But this has a up side also in that China is unlikely to be seen as a threat. Japan after all did not really start drifting away from the allies till the Washington Treaty a couple of years away

Just having a Market that will buy German Machinery even on a small scale at first, would help Germany Economy after the war, Also the Italians admired and worked with Chaing OTL

All that and a Germany that is important to the rebuilding of a Proud China might be able to pulls strings and influence than Germany had with Japan.

And one big thing China can build without getting into problems with the US, that is isolationist without those big navies. Who said a US will even come into a war in this timeline in fact a better performing Less corrupt China is better Market that might be more important and still friction between US and Japan, China with no powerful Navy and Force projection.

China does not need powerful Navy to threaten the European Empires, And might seem little threat to the Philippians, Unlike French Indo Chino Malaya and Burma.

Start small even a Couple German Pilots and ground crew say Fokker ( Anthony Fokker will sell to anyone to restart his business and good German connections ) built aircraft, and 3-400 German advisors ( there a so many disillusioned German Troops with skills and no jobs, you get a good Cadre for a 10,000 strong force )
 
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Empee

Banned
Soviet Union was not based on the same level as China, it was based on Russian industry and development, which before WW1 was among top industrial nations in the world.
The more Germany invests in China the less it has to wage war in Europe.
Any subs for China mean less subs for Atlantic. Also you need crews, training and logistics base to support them-which China would need to build and train from nothing.
And China has nothing to offer really in exchange for that that it didn't give to Germany in OTL when it did pursue a cooperation with it.
Basically China is a very poor, rural country with limited infrastructure that would need several decades of generous investment to work.
It will at least a decade to get it unified again succesfully.
As a opponent to Allies it will be not much of a threat at that time in terms of military power.

As to US-its rather given it will enter a war against Germany. The best China can hope for in short term would be neutrality. In longer term it would be better to lose to USA as it would avoid Soviet occupation.

China does not need powerful Navy to threaten the European Empires
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No matter what it will manage to posses in 20 years it won't be a serious threat, there isn't a way to threaten India really, Indochina is the only real vulnerable target, and without Navy it's impossible for China to threaten British possesions besides Hong Kong.

As for Soviet Union-they would be seriously beaten, and face communist guerillas within Chinese territories.

Start small even a Couple German Pilots and ground crew say Fokker ( Anthony Fokker will sell to anyone to restart his business and good German connections ) built aircraft
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I doubt China in 20s has any capability to build within a decade anything other then some fighters and short range bombers of limited numbers, considering the distances involved in Asian theater they would be no threat to Allies, besides SU.



As far as I see it-the war would end with Southern Invasion of China by Allies(Commonwealth, American and French forces, assisted by local resistance), Soviet occupation of Mongolia and Sinkiang province, while Japanese would regain their territory from before the war. During Cold War you would see a a division between capitalist and prosperous South China with regime installed by Americans, Soviet occupied territories and some kind of of corrupt fascist regime installed by Japanese. The only Enigma is what would happen to Japan as its political structure and beheaviour probably would be seen as unacceptable by the other countries.
 

Paul MacQ

Monthly Donor
Empee said:
Soviet Union was not based on the same level as China, it was based on Russian industry and development, which before WW1 was among top industrial nations in the world.
And China has nothing to offer really in exchange for that that it didn't give to Germany in OTL when it did pursue a cooperation with it.
Basically China is a very poor, rural country with limited infrastructure that would need several decades of generous investment to work.
It will at least a decade to get it unified again succesfully.
As a opponent to Allies it will be not much of a threat at that time in terms of military power.
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Thinking of a Taipang Rebellion like Revolution not with the Religious fever but a fever none the less there is a Chinese Middle class, small but there and many of these peasants would easily rally to a Charismatic leader that promises a Death nail to the excesses of the War Lords, plenty of Historical examples of this in China. And a Chaing doing a Mussolini

Russian Infrastructure in 1919 is a mess and production low and Civil war problems and issues with the Poles happening at this time. Yes Russia has the factories she had before WW1 But is rather occupied with her own problems.

The more Germany invests in China the less it has to wage war in Europe.
Any subs for China mean less subs for Atlantic. Also you need crews, training and logistics base to support them-which China would need to build and train from nothing.

Empee said:
China during this Period was able to actual build some Infrastructure a few Steel Mills and Power stations, The main thing holding her back was infighting and other nations Meddling in her affairs looking out of there interests, I still think it possible for China with a Good leader and some help to get to about 1/3 Russia level.
As to US-its rather given it will enter a war against Germany. The best China can hope for in short term would be neutrality. In longer term it would be better to lose to USA as it would avoid Soviet occupation.
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I cannot see how this works I have mentioned using some of the out of work German Tech and Skills available to help in a far of Nation, not large numbers But some experts. Keeping there hand in developing Weapons and other Items not just for war but industry in General.

It is a external Market something Germany is in desperate need of, I builds Germany up not detracts from it in the slightest. Germany has lost face in the international community, But there is a spark of interest in Far off China

Regarding Subs it was a thought as a possible way to go. But looking at the facts rather possible starting small again vessels under 400 tons for coastal work, Actual boasts German ability not reducing it. This is a place to keeping skill base intact and playing with new design ideas. not large numbers but even ability to produce a few a year by late 30's is a help to the German industrialist not a hinder, It is different market and effects the ability to produce Subs at home by Zero, But does produce a detail and experience for what is needed when the Germans need to starts building subs themselves at home later, Experience at building a infastrure from scratch is bad or detrimental to Germany how ?

Empee said:
No matter what it will manage to posses in 20 years it won't be a serious threat, there isn't a way to threaten India really, Indochina is the only real vulnerable target, and without Navy it's impossible for China to threaten British possesions besides Hong Kong.
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Empee said:
As for Soviet Union-they would be seriously beaten, and face communist guerillas within Chinese territories.

I doubt China in 20s has any capability to build within a decade anything other then some fighters and short range bombers of limited numbers, considering the distances involved in Asian theater they would be no threat to Allies, besides SU.
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What Communist guerrillas you assume that Chinese communism will develop in the way it did or will have a chance to Grow with a more fervent Chaing starting off with Different premise ?

Hmm Fighters and some Short Range Bombers, Fantastic More the sort of thing that will be needed than Subs. Short range Bombers that the Germans can Develop away from Germany Like dive Bombers that are great at short range protection of a Vulnerable coastline

Empee said:
As far as I see it-the war would end with Southern Invasion of China by Allies(Commonwealth, American and French forces, assisted by local resistance), Soviet occupation of Mongolia and Sinkiang province, while Japanese would regain their territory from before the war. During Cold War you would see a a division between capitalist and prosperous South China with regime installed by Americans, Soviet occupied territories and some kind of of corrupt fascist regime installed by Japanese. The only Enigma is what would happen to Japan as its political structure and beheaviour probably would be seen as unacceptable by the other countries.
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Interesting But what American Forces why and how would the US get involved? in China. And you sure a Russian invasion would happen ? , A Chinese Take over of French Indo China and no Declaration of war with the British Empire since it is so invulnerable from this poor Backward China
 

Hendryk

Banned
CCA said:
Even if the Germans successfully manage to set up one aircraft plant - that is still one more than OTL (where none was set up) Plus the POD is quite far back - allowing more leeway for Axis China to industrialize and rearm.
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Well, actually there was some small-scale domestic aircraft production in the Republic of China in OTL. Apart from Yang Xiangyi's airplane Rosamund (named after Song Qingling's Western nickname) assembled in 1923, there was the Naval Air Establishment, which produced a handful of seaplanes from 1918, and the Liuchow Mechanical and Aircraft Factory, which designed the Liuchow Kwangsi Type 3 in 1937. But your wider point stands.

CCA said:
While in Shanghai - Chiang begins to court Soong May-ling the daughter of Charlie Soong. Although May-ling is several years the junior of Chiang, May-ling falls in love with Chiang and the two begin an illicit love affair.
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I don't think it would work that way. There wasn't much passion between Jiang Jieshi and Song Meiling in OTL, theirs was a marriage of reason, prompted by political ambition on both sides. Plus the Songs required Jiang to divorce his previous wife, Mao Fumei, and to convert to Christianity. I don't see the two of them jumping into the sack just like that.
 

CCA

Hendryk said:
Well, actually there was some small-scale domestic aircraft production in the Republic of China in OTL. Apart from Yang Xiangyi's airplane Rosamund (named after Song Qingling's Western nickname) assembled in 1923, there was the Naval Air Establishment, which produced a handful of seaplanes from 1918, and the Liuchow Mechanical and Aircraft Factory, which designed the Liuchow Kwangsi Type 3 in 1937. But your wider point stands.


I don't think it would work that way. There wasn't much passion between Jiang Jieshi and Song Meiling in OTL, theirs was a marriage of reason, prompted by political ambition on both sides. Plus the Songs required Jiang to divorce his previous wife, Mao Fumei, and to convert to Christianity. I don't see the two of them jumping into the sack just like that.
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'

Thanks for the info about Chinese aviation - that sure will be useful later.

Hmm you raise a very valid point about Soong Meiling. But ITTL several things are different:

(1) I think the biggest is that Chiang isn't some nobody - ITTL he's the confirmed head of the KMT, is famous for being one of the leaders of the May Fourth Movement, he's an up and commer.

YOu're right in that it still might not be enough to cause a full blown love affair though.
 

Paul MacQ

Monthly Donor
Well written and I am liking what you have done so far,

And Interesting regarding Chinese Aircraft Industry.

Germany between 1921-1922 halted aircraft Production and at a time when they were producing some of the most advanced aircraft in the world. Including one China would later use as a converted light Bomber OTL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_F13

Something like a assembly plant for this aircraft,( Components made in Germany and assembled in China) as a way for the Germans to circumvent the Treaty limitations might be useful. Several Aircraft Companies in third world countries started there aero industries this way. Main point giving experience and a need for Infrastructure but starting very small.

Later on China can start building Spares and then later whole aircraft, Now Junkers in 1920s and early 1930 was a lead in Metal Aircraft structure.

As a side note I am sure Junkers would have blueprints for something like the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_J_9 still around. Always thought that aircraft a low wing Monoplane add a 300-400 hp class engine would be very competitive in the 1920s.

I an imagine Hugo Junkers " What we are not supplying Fighters to Chinese. we are selling fast sport plane....components. Your telling me they are putting guns on them. Well who would have thought such a thing " Might be bit of a stretch he was a known Pacifist.

Use some Chinese company as a front, all major components made in Germany for assembly at an airfield in China , starting of a larger aircraft industry, with at least structurally the some of the most advanced aircraft in the world.

Advantage with the Junkers company it is very well connected in the Old industrialists in Germany.
 
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Paul MacQ

Monthly Donor
You had to pick the damn Chauchat of all guns.

There is cheap and nasty that works, Then again there is sometimes just nasty.

the Chauchat had just so many problems me see how to fix that piece of hardware ,,

Throw away the mag first , I see you have done that well done . * German 50 round snail drum probably okish, normally side mounted but the Chauchat was feed from below.

Now lets see Umm needs a new feed system, Probably related to new Mag, being picked.

Need to fix Gas cylinder foiling,

Heavier Barrel if no Barrel change option. more of a problem with firing discipline to not over heat. Big issue.

Allot of work ( ie replacing most of what made that gun a Chauchat)

Recommends going with a Browning Bar.
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg36-e.htm

BAR Add a Snail drum Mag and a heavier changeable Barrel one light MG

Other than a Tech opinion (and it is that Chauchat would never be my starting point for a even average LMG) Well written and very interesting and most enjoyable. Is following closely.
 

ComradeTovarich

I second Paul MacQ in choosing the BAR over the Chauchat. The latter is just a piece of crap. Period.

One more thing... Try not to double post. As soon as you see a double post, delete the extra unnecessary one. :)

Other than that, I like where this is going. Keep it up :):):):):):):)
 
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