These are old US M1917's with a SA18 37mm gun or a .30 cal.mg. Both tanks have roughly similar armor, and guns that can pierce the others armor at normal engagement ranges, in this case, less than 500 yards. It will all come down to who shoots and hits first. The Japanese tanks are MUCH faster, but in the type of terrain we are looking at this isn't such an advantage. If nothing else, a two or three tank platoon of these at each airfield would ruin an IJA paratroopers day.
Canadian tanks, troops, guns and planes to Malaya, Oct 1941
- Thread starter Admiral Beez
- Start date
They're something to train with until the real tanks arrive. Something else to consider would be getting the Australians to ship some of these to Malaya.
Admiral Beez
Banned
Note in the pic the AMSCO tracks. I wonder if they were made in Canada back in the day? http://www.amscocast.com/about.html
There was a question about a new commanding general for Malaya earlier, what they really need is a man who excels at training an army. I'd send Monty, and while they're making changes in command send Keith Park to get RAF Malaya into some sort of decent shape. RAF Malaya needs better aircraft, as probably their best at the time is either the Hudson or the Sunderland. Neither of which is particularly suited for what's to come. The RAF has in the last year acquired a variety of American types orphaned when mainland Europe fellthough there might be some Welesleys. Given what they believed about Japanese aircraft (and pilots) at the time some of these types could be seen as useful in the far east. The Vindicator seams a likely type, so does the redundant Skua, again given what they think they know. Torpedo bombers are a particular need that I cant see an answer to. Malaya isn't going to be sent any Beauforts or Hampdens. They need a long range night bomber but again they're not going to get any current types. Nor are they likely to get any of the Harrows, though there might be some Wellesleys if they can pry them out of Wavells hands. If they asked they could probably get some Battles which again given what they think they know would appear viable. They'd do well against Nates and Clauds, possibly hold their own against Oscars, due to it's light armament and somewhat fragile construction. When any eventual Zeros arrive they're dead but the RAF doesn't know much about the Zero and would probably ignore reports from China. ("They're just a bunch of exitable Coolies old boy, the Nips wouldn't do anything like so well against British troops".)
Dear All,
At a minimum we are trying to build up a Malaya Armoured/Tank force that can fillet the Japanese attack: We still have time to bring "Grant Force" over from India. With regard the idea of bring over three dozen FTs I think that is doable - very doable. They were restored to full working order by the Canadians see http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.com/Canadian Renault Tanks.htm. Most of them seem to 37mm equipped, I have identified at least one radio-tank (out of an original production run of 50 American), this may or may not have its radio, if yes then either SCR-78 or -189. If not a more modern tank radio be fitted allowing the CAN. Tk Regt (Brutinell Regt?) to talk to Higher Cmd.
The Canadian tank crews were exactly the high quality automotive-engineering soldiers you needed for the tanks and for Malaya, with high levels of motivation, initiative and independence-of-mind, used to solving their own problems in remote FORESTED areas. Of course Malaya being tropical with a whole set of new theater specific natural nastiness will have new learning curves to play with, but these men will have alot of transferable skills, and, an attitude of willing to learn new things.
Initially I would recommend combining "Grant Force" with the "Brutinell Regt", it would give the Brigade double tank numbers, and an infusion of highly experienced crews and an opportunity for desperately needed unit and formation training. FTs could do "Red" force OPFOR Trng for example.
For combat deployment I think there are is only one effective option
I was once in favour of holding the Brutinell Regt at Ipoh in "reserve". Then I realised that was like holding a formation in reserve in Manchester to stop landings at Dover...No not going to work. Malaya is so big. So like Rommel wanted in Normandy we put our Panzers at the "Front Door", so when the 25th Army come knocking we knock back.
Regards
Stafford1069
At a minimum we are trying to build up a Malaya Armoured/Tank force that can fillet the Japanese attack: We still have time to bring "Grant Force" over from India. With regard the idea of bring over three dozen FTs I think that is doable - very doable. They were restored to full working order by the Canadians see http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.com/Canadian Renault Tanks.htm. Most of them seem to 37mm equipped, I have identified at least one radio-tank (out of an original production run of 50 American), this may or may not have its radio, if yes then either SCR-78 or -189. If not a more modern tank radio be fitted allowing the CAN. Tk Regt (Brutinell Regt?) to talk to Higher Cmd.
The Canadian tank crews were exactly the high quality automotive-engineering soldiers you needed for the tanks and for Malaya, with high levels of motivation, initiative and independence-of-mind, used to solving their own problems in remote FORESTED areas. Of course Malaya being tropical with a whole set of new theater specific natural nastiness will have new learning curves to play with, but these men will have alot of transferable skills, and, an attitude of willing to learn new things.
Initially I would recommend combining "Grant Force" with the "Brutinell Regt", it would give the Brigade double tank numbers, and an infusion of highly experienced crews and an opportunity for desperately needed unit and formation training. FTs could do "Red" force OPFOR Trng for example.
For combat deployment I think there are is only one effective option
- Under 11th (IA) Div Cmd implement Op MATADOR advancing from Jitra, with a caveat that two or three Stuarts support the LEDGE operation.
- Also due to the lack of FT MG I suggest that there be heavy armoured car or carrier MG support - no diverting C-Force carriers to MacArthur, therefore we need to send them early.
I was once in favour of holding the Brutinell Regt at Ipoh in "reserve". Then I realised that was like holding a formation in reserve in Manchester to stop landings at Dover...No not going to work. Malaya is so big. So like Rommel wanted in Normandy we put our Panzers at the "Front Door", so when the 25th Army come knocking we knock back.
Regards
Stafford1069
Admiral Beez
Banned
How about moving the Grant force to Burma as to attack the presumed IJA northern flank?
This would have been more feasible if the rail link between Chittagong India and the Myingyan Burma line could be completed in the 1930s. Tanks and troops would have more easily been moved up to the Thai border.
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It's ironic in a sense that modern tanks, ie, those with speed and a single, central turret, were perhaps less useful in some situations than their predecessor of WWI. In an infantry battle with limited AT weapons, against an army that was in many ways still a WWI army (IJA) the old "Marks" tanks (IV, V, VI etc etc) would have been pretty good in Malaysia. With a number of MG's covering essentially the entire tank and often cannon, it would have been a formidable problem for the IJA. Unless IJA armor were present, even an old tank would have been difficult to overcome, needing artillery to intervene or fire over open sights. Ergo, if you DO decide to send in the M1917's, why not send along a company of the MkVIII Liberty tanks and really screw with the IJA?
If you can send something to Malaya to help defend it why not send SS Port Quebec, maybe with a few more cargo ship as well?
They are just carrying spares and other misc stores to help get ready for force Z in Singapore....
No you don't need to worry, I have no idea why they got lost north of Malaya must be under trained civilian navigators ;-)
They are just carrying spares and other misc stores to help get ready for force Z in Singapore....
No you don't need to worry, I have no idea why they got lost north of Malaya must be under trained civilian navigators ;-)
Or some of the huge amount of captured Italian equipment from North Africa. It might not be the most up to date, but against what Japan has, it'll do the job. You only have to delay the Japanese for a few extra days and they'll have to retreat north after running out of ammunition. That changes the situation for the whole Malay Barrier, and shifts the focus onto Java. If Java can be successfully defended then Sumatra is safe and the Japanese in Malaya are far less secure. If however Java falls then so inevitably will Sumatra and Singapore. Indomitable and Hermes need to reinforce the ABDA naval forces in the Java Sea.
Admiral Beez
Banned
The Dutch did have tanks in Sumatra, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmon-Herrington_CTLS#Foreign_use
How about sending these to Malaya to fight the Japanese before they can touch the DEI?
The Dutch would be very unlikely to weaken their own already weak forces. They needed any equipment they could lay their hands on so they wouldn't part with any they actually had. Captured Italian tanks, tankettes and guns would have been seen as a God Send to them.
IIRC the NEI did get some captured Italian material, but not armor. There is a book I'm going to get when I can titled "The Loss of Java:The Final Battles for Possession of Java Fought by Allied Air, Naval and Land Forces in the Period of 18 Feb to 7 March" by P.C. Boer, but its almost $50 USD, and the grandkids Xmas comes first.... In any event, it will be good to read some from the Dutch perspective regarding their plans, especially those of the Army, and how they implemented them.
The big problem for the British during the Malayan campaign was the speed of the Japanese advance. This screwed the pre-war assumption that by the time the Japanese where close to Singapore massive reinforcements would have been sent to improve the situation. Any modern armour (especially the pretty decent for 1941 Valentine's) are going to make a difference at the sharp end both in slowing the Japanese advance and making deep encircling movements to the rear of the Wallies positions very risky (as mentioned above). Certainly the tank dominance of the Japanese would have instantly disappeared, making their lightly armoured tanks death traps. I think that with additional tanks and aircraft the Wallies could have held long enough for a major campaign to have been fought to recapture the peninsula during 1942-1943. Even if the Allies had one hand tied behind their backs in the form of Percival. Adding any (even slightly) more competent commander would turn this into a proper Brit wank. My personal favourite would be Lord Gort. Still smarting from France the previous year and effectively unemployed. In no way a good general he does have the rank to supersede Percival and if he managed to oversee the debacle of the British part of the Battle of France without loosing his marbles he's unlikely to do so in Malas.
I thought I posted this yesterday morning. The debate has moved on since then. So I'll post it any way and add my two pence worth about the DEI.
I feel that a powerful force still fighting the Japanese in Malaya is going to suck in resources that OTL would have been used in Samoa, Java and Burma. Certainly any additional time a more successful defence of Singapore, gives time for more to be done to secure these areas. This could include the use of captured Italian equipment and/ or scaling back on Lend Lease to the USSR. An interesting butterfly would be the possibility of (albeit small numbers of) US ground forces and/or equipment being deployed to the area. The big what if being what would happen if the US didn't go island hopping and instead moved directly overland into SEA!
I thought I posted this yesterday morning. The debate has moved on since then. So I'll post it any way and add my two pence worth about the DEI.
I feel that a powerful force still fighting the Japanese in Malaya is going to suck in resources that OTL would have been used in Samoa, Java and Burma. Certainly any additional time a more successful defence of Singapore, gives time for more to be done to secure these areas. This could include the use of captured Italian equipment and/ or scaling back on Lend Lease to the USSR. An interesting butterfly would be the possibility of (albeit small numbers of) US ground forces and/or equipment being deployed to the area. The big what if being what would happen if the US didn't go island hopping and instead moved directly overland into SEA!
If the Malay Barrier holds then it is unlikely the Japanese would try for New Guinea so it's possible the Americans could use Java to build up their forces in the region instead of Australia. There is also the fact that with Singapore the Americans will have access to a world class naval base near to hand, and no need to send damaged ships thousands of miles away to be repaired. With the ultimate aim of America's forces in the region being to recapture the US colonial possessions there should be fewer jokes about SEAC standing for Save Europe's Asiatic Colonies. Macarthur and Mountbatton should have an "interesting" working relationship.
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The butterflies from such small changes would be enormous, and how the Japanese react to the IJA being bogged down on the Malay peninsular would be interested. Judging from their actions in OTL, I expect them to double down.
Personally, I'm interested in how this impacts Canada post war, would this lead to Canada being a member of SEATO, and deploying troops in Japan rather than Europe?
Personally, I'm interested in how this impacts Canada post war, would this lead to Canada being a member of SEATO, and deploying troops in Japan rather than Europe?
I am enjoying this thread alot plus since it deals with Singapore many things could have been sent.
First tanks: well if Canada starts massive construction of the Valentine tanks un January 1941 by June 1941 at least 350 - 400 tanks would have been completed. So maybe sending 200 tanks by October 1941 would be good for the defence of Malaya. Also since they would need to train in Malaya well send at least 120 liberty tanks for training by June 1941. Canadian Armour Corp would be sent also at this time to do training in Malaya. When this happens Malaysian would also do training with the Canadians and maybe some from Hong Kong.
Second troops: I read that C Force be sent to Malaya instead to Hong Kong. That would be good but also send the Hong Kong brigade command to Malaya since it would be hard to defend Hong Kong. Also could Z Force in Iceland had been sent to Malaya arriving in early November 1941? I think adding C Force with Z Force and troops from Hong Kong at least a good Brigade could be form. Maybe add troops from Malaya to form a infantry division and leave in command General Lawson in command (forgot general name). Worthington would still be commander of CAC a good armour division comprise of 4 battalions of valentines (40 tanks in each battalion) and 2 battalions of liberty tanks (40 tanks in each battalion) with artillary.
Third planes: to bad that the Gloster Griffen are not real but if it did then this is the plane for Singapore. I had read many things on the Griffen and well I like this plane alot. Have this plane deal with the japanese fighters and leave the hurricanes to deal with the bombers.
Forth commander of theater: I read that a replacement of Percival with another general. I was thinking of General Alan Brooke. Don't know maybe another general?
First tanks: well if Canada starts massive construction of the Valentine tanks un January 1941 by June 1941 at least 350 - 400 tanks would have been completed. So maybe sending 200 tanks by October 1941 would be good for the defence of Malaya. Also since they would need to train in Malaya well send at least 120 liberty tanks for training by June 1941. Canadian Armour Corp would be sent also at this time to do training in Malaya. When this happens Malaysian would also do training with the Canadians and maybe some from Hong Kong.
Second troops: I read that C Force be sent to Malaya instead to Hong Kong. That would be good but also send the Hong Kong brigade command to Malaya since it would be hard to defend Hong Kong. Also could Z Force in Iceland had been sent to Malaya arriving in early November 1941? I think adding C Force with Z Force and troops from Hong Kong at least a good Brigade could be form. Maybe add troops from Malaya to form a infantry division and leave in command General Lawson in command (forgot general name). Worthington would still be commander of CAC a good armour division comprise of 4 battalions of valentines (40 tanks in each battalion) and 2 battalions of liberty tanks (40 tanks in each battalion) with artillary.
Third planes: to bad that the Gloster Griffen are not real but if it did then this is the plane for Singapore. I had read many things on the Griffen and well I like this plane alot. Have this plane deal with the japanese fighters and leave the hurricanes to deal with the bombers.
Forth commander of theater: I read that a replacement of Percival with another general. I was thinking of General Alan Brooke. Don't know maybe another general?
Aircraft for Malaya are always difficult, but one of the problems with the Buffalo was it's engine. Could the engines be changed to newly built Australian Twin Wasps, or for that mater could Australia be prompted to built Boomerangs a year early. Also along the same lines the Commonwealth Wirraway trainer proved to be a reliable attack aircraft and would probably be more survivable than the Blenheim Is.
RAF is a bit of a misnomer - as usual - and speaking of Hurricanes -
https://thejavagoldblog.wordpress.com/2016/04/29/raafnzraf-squadrons-in-malaya-1941/
Also note that there was another unit in Australia waiting to be transported to the Middle East in January 1942 -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Armoured_Division_(Australia)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Armoured_Division_(Australia)
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Admiral Beez
Banned
Don't forget the addition of the Corps of Royal Canadian Engineers (RCE), consisting of fifty officers and about 400 men, plus all their equipment, including two thousand land mines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Military_Engineers#Second_World_War The otherwise untrained RC Rifles could have laboured to help them.
They'll be helpful to the RE's already there, as shown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay...ers_prepare_to_blow_up_a_bridge_in_Malaya.jpg