Canadian tanks, troops, guns and planes to Malaya, Oct 1941

[Admiral Beez]

Sept 1940, Japan invades FIC. By Jan 1941 Britain asks Canada to join Australia and India in reinforcing Malaya. The focus of the Canadian contribution is to be tanks, artillery, troops and fighter aircraft.

1) Tanks.

27 May 1941, the first of 1,400 Valentine tanks rolls off the production line at CPR's Angus Shops in Montreal. See details here http://www.okthepk.ca/dataCprSiding/articles/200909/foto04.htm

Instead of sending all of them to the USSR, the first 200 are destined for Malaya. As part of the operation Colonel Worthington was instructed in Jan 1941 to begin training the Canadian Armoured Corp (CAC) for deployment to SEA. The first 40 tanks, shown below, ship from Vancouver in early July, arriving 25 days later in early August, with another 60 arriving in early September 1941. By end of October the full 200 allotment has arrived.

The Canadian Valentines use GM diesel engines, so logistical challenges will need to be overcome. Can you run a WW2 diesel engine on naval fuel oil? There'd be tons of that at Singapore's naval base.

I'm not sure of the transport ships available during this stage of the Battle of the Atlantic, but a Liberty Ship from later in the war could carry over 300 light tanks, so let's assume two or three ships available in 1940-41 are making the runs. Escorts shouldn't be needed in the peacetime Pacific.

As an aside, I was amazed how many Valentines survive to this day http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Valentines.pdf

2) Troops

Nearly the entirety of the Canadian Armoured Corps personnel, including mechanics and support teams is transported to Malaya to man the Valentines. Colonel Worthington is promoted to Brigadier-General and sent to lead the CAC. The CAC personnel have been training and preparing for this operation, so land on their feet and get to work in Malaya.

Also sent is the Corps of Royal Canadian Engineers (RCE), consisting of fifty officers and about 400 men, plus all their equipment, including two thousand land mines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Military_Engineers#Second_World_War

The RC Rifles and Winnipeg Grenadiers destined for Hong Kong IOTL are instead sent to Malaya with the tanks, but without Brigadier-General Lawson, as we don't want Worthington to be outranked by an interfering fellow Canuck. These troops are green, but will be useful as labour for the RCEs for road blocks and defensive works if nothing else. Best of all, the troops have brought machine guns, mortars and lots of ammunition.

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/weapons/lightweapons/mortars/mortars.htm
During the Second World War, each Infantry Platoon was equipped with a 2-inch Mortar. Each Infantry Battalion also had a Mortar Platoon equipped with the 3-inch Mortar. Each Machine Gun Battalion had a 4.2-inch Mortar company added to it after the beginning of the war.

3) Guns

In early 1940 Canada's Sorel plant began production of the 25 pounder artillery gun. http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/weapons/ordnance/25pounder.htm

In August 1941, the 1st and 2nd Medium Regiments, Royal Canadian Artillery arrives in Malaya with fifty 25-pounders and 600 men. I'm using this as a size estimate http://nigelef.tripod.com/RAorg.htm

If tractors or trucks are not available, the Valentines can be used in a pinch to move the guns.

4) Planes

Instead of buying the Brewster Buffalo for the RAF in Malaya, in Sept 1940, Britain decides to divert Canadian-produced Hurricanes to Malaya, planning to sent 200 aircraft to Malaya by summer 1941. In Jan. 1940 the first Hawker Hurricanes began rolling off CC&F's plant in Fort William Ontario. http://www.jneaircraft.com/am274/history/

The June 1941 trains carrying the first Valentines pass through Fort William (today's Thunder Bay). They stop to collect 100 Hawker Hurricanes, to send on the same ships to Malaya. The following tank trains collect 200 more Hurricanes, bring the total shipment to 300 fighters arriving crated in Malaya by August 1941.

Some RCAF pilots are sent, but these join the RAF/RAAF personnel now in place in Malaya to operate the Hurricanes and other aircraft.

What hasn't changed

Percival is still in charge, so they'll still be a general lack of preparedness, unless someone (maybe Worthington?) can push him to use the concrete and engineering kit he has on hand to build road blocks, defenses, stockpile food, secure water, etc. With tanks, troops, planes, etc. all arriving so late in the game, none of the leadership or troops can easily work together. The CAC tankers are well trained, but green.

Now what?

Percival's command has now been reinforced by 200 Valentine tanks with trained tankers and one of the CW's top tank officers, 300 Hawker Hurricane fighters, 50 x 25-pdr artillery guns and their trained personnel, an engineering corps, a machine gun regiment (Winnipeg Grenadiers), and an additional infantry regiment (RC Rifles).

 

[CalBear]

As long as Percival is in command Malaya is doomed. Arthur Percival was possibly the most obviously incompetent senior officer the British allowed a combat command in WW II.

 

[Admiral Beez]

As long as Percival is in command Malaya is doomed. Arthur Percival was possibly the most obviously incompetent senior officer the British allowed a combat command in WW II.

If we pull Percival, perhaps justified due to this now significant investment in Malayan defence, who would replace him? I'd argue it can't be a Canadian or Australian as supreme CinC, but would need to be a Brit. We'd need someone who can understand how to use tanks, artillery, aircraft, logistics, etc, etc. And we're not going to get Montgomery, he's busy (or soon to be) in North Africa.

 

[jsb]

Why not replace Percival as well?
Who would be acceptable? Need to be good, very high rank, and available in the summer 41.

What about Air Chief Marshal Hugh Dowding? (Supreme Allied Commander of the Southeast Asia Theatre?)

- very high rank - can be supreme commander of all 3 services and civilian government easily and very strong reputation as defender of England.
- free as he is not really used well post BoB, gets him away from England as he is hated by AM.
- can't be to bad he did after all organize fighter command ok and OTL Malaya will not be hard to be better than.

He doesn't really have to be a ground commander just tell his generals to start getting ready and then go as soon as he detects the IJN coming south, without asking London (he was willing to stand up to Churchill in BofF).

You don't even have to remove Percival he was a good staff officer earlier on and is much lower rank so can assist Dowding say they are both sent in April 41.

 

[eltf177]

The Hurricane's are better than the Buffalo's but still no match for the Zero. Still expect heavy losses but perhaps a better kill ratio.

The Valentine's will help, but only if they can be kept running and supplied. And have good crews manning them.

Artillery will help, but the jungle will keep ranges down. Spotters are needed, which is the other reason the naval artillery didn't fire inland.

More troops might help, but they need to be TRAINED troops.

Agreed, without a better commander all this is for nothing...

 

[CalBear]

If we pull Percival, perhaps justified due to this now significant investment in Malayan defence, who would replace him? I'd argue it can't be a Canadian or Australian as supreme CinC, but would need to be a Brit. We'd need someone who can understand how to use tanks, artillery, aircraft, logistics, etc, etc. And we're not going to get Montgomery, he's busy (or soon to be) in North Africa.

Logical choice would be Archibald Wavell, Harold Alexander or William Slim (roughly in that order).

With the additional forces as outlined, and even a moderately skilled commander, the Commonwealth would be able to hold Singapore and southern Malaya until they ran out of supplies and ammunition(probably sometime in June or July of 1942). That sort of a roadblock, coupled with OTL's defense of Bataan until early April, would have destroyed the Japanese battle plan, possibly to the point that the British are able to reinforce and hold Burma, with the impact that has on the war in China (and possibly on the Chinese Civil War).

 

[tomo pauk]

The well led RAF fighter squadrons would've given the IJA/IJN a hard time. Especially when outfitted with something useful, like Hurricanes. We can debate whether the Hurricane is better than Zero, but Hurri is every bit as good as Wildcat in combat, and certainly better than Oscar, let alone the Nate or Claude.

 

[Oldbill]

"Can you run a WW2 diesel engine on naval fuel oil"

No, I don't think so. Naval fuel is Bunker C, which has to be heated before use. Not practical on a tank. As to the Buffalo vs Hurricane, your not getting as much as you think by the trade. We looked into this on another forum some time ago, and the issue wasn't the performance of the Buffalo against the IJA aircraft but the performance of the GROUND CREWS, and the lack of infrastructure at the airfields. The RAF ground crews had a near impossible task keeping the aircraft up and running, and the loss of airfields early in the campaign doomed their efforts. So, what you need are more engineers making more airfields earlier, with adequate AA to provide at least a modicum of protection. A few "Beaverettes" for airfield ground defense wouldn't hurt either.

 

[naraic]

Are there any ports on the western side of the malay peninsula that could have been used to significantly improve the supply situation if held?

 

[BlondieBC]

As long as Percival is in command Malaya is doomed. Arthur Percival was possibly the most obviously incompetent senior officer the British allowed a combat command in WW II.

Out of curiosity, who do you have as the worst British land commander ever?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Out of curiosity, who do you have as the worst British land commander ever?

Some options here http://listverse.com/2012/03/26/top-10-worst-generals-in-british-history/

My pick is Elphinstone.

 

[CalBear]

Ever?

Since the start of the UK in 1707, I would either go with either John Burgoyne (of Saratoga infamy when he couldn't handle Horatio Gates, one of the bottom tier of American Generals) or Thomas Gage (although his failing was as much political as military). You manage to lose a good chunk of North America to a bunch of yokels...

Frederic Thesiger (Lord Chelmsford), who allowed his command to be slaughtered at Isandlwana by the Zulu is also a contender.

 

[jsb]

Arthur Percival was possibly the most obviously incompetent senior officer the British allowed a combat command in WW II.

Both him and Brooke-Popham and other did very badly nearing nervous collapse. Was this simply a reflection of the very bad situation including London's and civilians micromanaging & demands, as much as the lack of competence?

For a best result in Malaya, what would be the effect of lunching a large air strike (Hudsons, Viledebeests & Blenheims) against the IJN/IJA convoys on the afternoon of the 7th (after OTL sighting in the morning) after the convoys have turned south? Covered by sufficient number of Hurricanes to deal with the CAP.

 

[BlondieBC]

Some options here http://listverse.com/2012/03/26/top-10-worst-generals-in-british-history/

My pick is Elphinstone.

I think I would go with the Afghan Compound unit.

Thanks

 

[Admiral Beez]

How we we see the Valentines and 25 pdrs. being best utilized?

The 25-pdr can be sent by narrow gauge rail across Malaya, as shown by the below picks.

This reminded me that the British already had five or more artillery regiments onhand in Malaya, not including anti-tank or coastal artillery regiments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaya_Command#Allied_Land_Forces_.288_December_1941.29

What about the Valentines?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

As long as Percival is in command Malaya is doomed. Arthur Percival was possibly the most obviously incompetent senior officer the British allowed a combat command in WW II.

You say obviously - but it was Percival who wrote the staff paper on what it would take to defend Malaya so he had a proper appreciation of the task - unfortunately he only received a 3rd of what he needed and much of it was 2nd rate - so he knew he was going to lose and from what I have read had a breakdown (which is not a rare occurrence in battle) but none of his subordinates stepped up to replace him.

I don't think any general could have won that battle - but maybe they could have done better?

As for replacing the commanders Dowding has been mentioned - the Dowding touch might very well have worked in bringing the airfields and ground crews up to scratch as well as a comprehensive air defence network even if it comprised a network of sky watchers

Another obvious choice and as far as I am aware unemployed at the time - was Gen Ironside

Now back to the POD - Valentine Tank Numbers - initially it was a trickle in 1941 so I don't think that Canada can send many tank's to Malaya - I dont recall the numbers but I think it was less than 50 made before end of the year 1941

Edit: Found it - 30 tanks made between May and Sept 1941 - this due to equipment delays forcing teh thn still unskilled workers to use manual methods rather than power tools - From Oct 41 to April 42 these issues were quickly overcome and they made 420 tanks during this period and after that 75 tanks per month till the end of the war.

An earlier fixing of the factory issues might result in your 200 tanks?

Still if crewed competently enough then they could have wrecked any Japanese efforts to install roadblocks on the MSRs behind commonwealth units - in many cases obliging them to withdraw and often abandoning much of their transport and heavy equipment. M3 Stuarts - about a 100 odd in Burma during the Battles around and during the retreat from Rangoon in 1942 were instrumental in allowing the remains of the 2 commonwealth infantry divisions to escape. Also had they been in place in time for the 7th Dec 41 then maybe some could have joined efforts to execute a version of Operation Matador - the spoiling attack into the suspected beachheads in southern thailand.

The other obvious point is that they were superior in armour and fire power to the Japanese tanks and I am reminded of the difference just 6 Matilda II tanks made in the East Africa Campaign

 

[Admiral Beez]

Edit: Found it - 30 tanks made between May and Sept 1941 - this due to equipment delays forcing teh thn still unskilled workers to use manual methods rather than power tools - From Oct 41 to April 42 these issues were quickly overcome and they made 420 tanks during this period and after that 75 tanks per month till the end of the war.

An earlier fixing of the factory issues might result in your 200 tanks?

That, or we only send 30 tanks in Sept, arriving in November 1941. That's too little too late; so let's fix the factory. ITTL, Canada has been asked in Jan 1941 to provide armour, guns, troops and aircraft to Malaya, so there may be more urgency to get moving on the Valentine line.

I like the idea of each Valentine pulling a 25 pdr, giving strong HE hitting power against personnel, while the Valentine's coaxial 7.92 Besa keeps the artillerymen safe. Question - was the 7.92 mg installed on Canadian Valentines? This is an odd calibre and may not be easily available - better to go with whatever the Bren gun used.

And we still need to solve the diesel fuel source for the Valentines. Assuming diesel fuel can be had, can it be transported to the tanks at the front?

 

[Oldbill]

Sometimes Wikipedia is your friend.

"Although Britain's armed forces used the .303 in rimmed round for rifles and machine guns, the ZB-53 had been designed for the German 7.92×57mm Mauser round - referred to by the British as the 7.92mm. Although it had been intended for the British to move from rimmed to rimless ammunition generally, with war imminent wholesale change was not possible. It was considered by BSA and the Ministry of Supply that the industrial, technical, and logistical difficulty of converting the design to the .303 round would be more onerous than retaining the original calibre, especially given that the chain of supply for the Royal Armoured Corps was already separate from the other fighting arms of the British Army. As a consequence, the round was not changed for British production. Since the Besa used the same ammunition as Germany used in its rifles and machine guns, the British could use stocks of captured enemy ammunition."

So ship whatever captured stocks are in hand with the tanks, or get the US to make it, simple enough for us.
EDIT:
In reading the Wikipedia entry for the Valentine, it seems that most had the Besa changed to a US .30 cal. anyway. Ergo, changing to a Bren to standardize isn't going to be difficult, but in all honesty with the RAC already having its separate supply chain I'd leave it as is. I cross checked this btw with Chamberlain and Ellis's "British and American Tanks of World War II".

 

[marathag]

you run a WW2 diesel engine on naval fuel oil?

You can run a diesel on motor oil thats thin enough to flow thru the injectors.

Old GMC/Detroit Diesels two strokes could runaway, if rings were bad enough that crankcase blowby got to the top end to support ignition.
Seen one keep running, after guys had tried to stop it by stuffing a towel into the air intake. Only way kill it, was to stall it out by doing a clutch dump in top gear.

 

[stafford1069]

Dear All,

I do wonder if with a tweaks how we could get have better outcomes for the Malay Campaign. As much a I would like few hundred Valentines setting the sun on the 25th Army, I can't in conscience. I had my hands earlier on the CAN Valentine prod figures by the month on the first factory - No-CAN-do for the Far East.

The Best I can do is based on old game in Civ-2:

Malaya - The Full Monty -

• All HK Bns in Malaya
• Grant Force - From India CMD
• Force Z CV + DD Flot
• China Force - Striking Force - Painfully filling the gap left by the loss of Force-Z and the retreat of US TF-5
• TF-5 - East Coast Covering Force and when necessary reinforcing the Striking Force (China-/Force-Z) for that Killer blow
• 10th (IA) Div - not bogged in Syria and ships to FE CMD and is III (IA) Corps Res freeing 12th(IA)Bde to become 9th (IA) Div Res
• Hurricanes replace Buffaloes - Reversing Staff Appreciation COS (40) 302 of August 1940.
• Beauforts replace Vildebeests and Baltimores replace some Blenheims (which go in IR) - Partially reversing Staff Appreciation COS (40) 302 of August 1940
• As Malaya Command is stronger no Dutch Buffalo or Martin reinforcements or Dutch CC Sqn; - giving the collapsing Dutch a slightly better hand;

In the listings above it will be noted that the obsolescent Buffalo fighter, the obsolete Vildebeest torpedo-bomber and some Blenheim bombers are missing. These have been replaced respectively by the Hurricane, the Beaufort and the Baltimore. The Air Ministry's post-August 1940 long term aim was of using American and Australian aircraft in Malaya, due to believed future shipping shortages. The POD (Point of Departure) is reversed for fighter aircraft. Replacing Buffalo with the Hurricane.

Yours

with more to follow

Stafford1069