So it would take a bit of doing, but not impossible. What about the wedding plans with Rupert and Maria, likely or no? I'm also a bit concerned about William III and the Stadtholderate. Do you think he's to young for such a position? I mean his father was 20/21 when he became Stadtholder and Prince, but there's a pretty big difference between 20/21 and 16.
Apollinis et Dianae: A Story of Power, Magnificence and Glory
- Thread starter Emperor Constantine
- Start date
So it would take a bit of doing, but not impossible. What about the wedding plans with Rupert and Maria, likely or no? I'm also a bit concerned about William III and the Stadtholderate. Do you think he's to young for such a position? I mean his father was 20/21 when he became Stadtholder and Prince, but there's a pretty big difference between 20/21 and 16.
Chapter III: Britannia, Rule the Waves!
Chapter III: Britannia, Rule the Waves!
Arrival of the Dutch Spice Fleet in Portsmouth, one of the Final humiliations of the Second Dutch War
Arrival of the Dutch Spice Fleet in Portsmouth, one of the Final humiliations of the Second Dutch War
At the Beginning of 1667 the situation is bleak for the Dutch. Though the plague had began to subside in Amsterdam, it was spread to other cities in the north by fleeing refugees. The cities of Utrecht, Rotterdam and Arnhem report signs of outbreak. Thankfully, it seems to have somehow missed The Hague. However, the outbreak in such major ports such as Amsterdam and Rotterdam have all but crippled trade. Many Nations have began to bar Dutch ships from docking at their ports, for fear of contamination. There is even talk of an enforced blockade of those infected ports, to ensure the Plague doesn't spread. In Brussels, Francisco de Moura, 3rd Marquis of Castelo Rodrigo and Governor of the Spanish Netherlands, orders the sealing of the Dutch border. In Copenhagen, King Frederick, who had allied with the Dutch the previous year, has sent out feelers to London to inquire about a separate peace with the English. And in France, Louis XIV, awaiting the Spring to begin his war with Spain, looks on with both worry and intrigue. The Dutch Fleet has been all but vanquished by England, all of Europe can tell, but their army still remains. Will the Dutch be able to react to his invasion of the Spanish Netherlands, or will they be too weakened to rick a second defeat so soon? Only time will tell.
By February in London, while discussions are underway for a possible separate peace with the Danish, the joint Household of Prince Charles and Princess Katherine-Henriette is formally established at Richmond Palace. Richmond is considered by many to be the Royal Nursery. The Twins are joining other young Royals, their York cousins. For Richmond is also home to Ladys Mary and Anne of York , James Duke of Cambridge and Charles Duke of Kendal. The children of the Duke and Duchess of York, they were, until the previous year, the only heirs of the next generation of the House of Stuart. Another change for the children of York is their governess. Until that March their governess had been Lady Frances Villiers. But now the King, supported by York, had created a new position, based on the French model: Governess of the Royal Children, which is immediately assumed by the Duchess of Buckingham (Lady Villiers remained on as a sub-governess).
Mary Villiers Duchess of Buckingham and First Governess of the Royal Children
Mary Villiers, Duchess of Buckingham is an interesting choice for Royal Governess. The daughter and heiress of Parliamentarian General Lord Thomas Fairfax and Hon. Anne de Vere, she married George Villiers 2nd Duke of Buckingham in 1657. An odd couple, the best friend of the exiled King and daughter of the Commander-in-chief of Parliaments armies during the civil war, the couple would go on to have great favor after the Restoration. Though some of the former Cavalier Courtiers, including the Earl of Clarendon, find the choice of Governess reprehensible, for the most part the appointment is without scandal. The Duchess will both lose and gain charges later in the year, as Charles of Kendal dies of convulsions in May, and his brother Edger Duke of Gloucester is born in September.
In March a most interesting proposal is broached by the Prince de Ligne, Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Spain, about the possibility of an alliance between his nation and England, aimed at the Netherlands. Queen Regent Marianna had suffered a series of defeats at the hands of the Portuguese (ironically aided by the English) and was desperate to find a way to prove to Europe, and her opponents at home (led by the her late husbands illegitimate son, Don Juan José de Austria) that Spain is still strong and she is still the best choice as Regent. The idea of joining the English in their war is promising. The Dutch, one of their traditional rivals , are weakened by naval defeats and plague and seem to be a good target for the equally weakened Spanish. There are still those in Spain that nurse the hope, feeble as it is, to reconquer their lost provinces, as the Spanish tend to refer to the Dutch as (The Dutch republic was once the Northern half of the Seventeen Provinces, a Habsburg union of territories). However, from an economic point of view, a major goal is the reopening of the Scheldt river, which, the Queen and her advisers hope, will revitalize trade for the port of Antwerp.
The offer is made all the more tempting by the promise of a Spanish subsidy for the King, who's financial situation leaved much to be desired. The Queen Regent is even willing to raise the possibility of a match between her son Carlos II and Princess Katherine, though the infant Princess would have to convert to Catholicism. How realistic such a match is remains unseen. However, on the other hand, this potential alliance could be a disaster. The people won't receive an alliance with Catholic Spain against the Protestant Netherlands very well. For the time being the King takes refuge in delays and indecision, informing the Prince de Ligne that he is interested but needs time to consider such an alliance with his advisers.
The King also maintains simultaneous negotiations with his cousin King Louis, with the aim of gaining financial support from the French and getting Louis to place pressure on the Dutch to make a peace favorable to England. The possibility of a match between the Dauphin and the Princess is also brought up. Thus Charles is playing the Spanish and French against each other, though neither are aware of this.
By April the Dutch situation is desperate. Their Danish allies have all but abandoned them, with the French looking as though they will follow suit. At this point de Witt begins to consider a new plan, one that he hasn't thought of in almost a year. It calls for a daring raid on the English Naval base of Chatham. It was a plan developed by Admiral Michiel de Ruyter before his death in battle. The problems are who will lead the fleet and if it is even capable of pulling the raid off. Admiral Tromp, the most likely to command such a raid, is an Orangist and political enemy of the Grand Pensionary. In fact he is already encouraging the States-General to appoint William of Orange as Captain-General and General Admiral of the Dutch Forces, with the various Provinces also being encouraged to appoint William as their Stadtholder. Though de Witt continues preparing his plans, it seems to be a fools hope.
In May, with the war still not over, the King and his advisers begin to once again consider the possibility of an invasion of the Netherlands. The plague had began to die down, though it wouldn't fully disappear until October, and the situation seems ripe for a landing in the Netherlands. As such, on the King's behalf Englands most senior Army leaders, General George Monck Duke of Albemarle and Prince Rupert are sent to Parliament to ask for money to raise new Regiments. Though reluctant to expand the army, Parliament agrees to vote £ 60,000, which combined with the increase in the King's income the previous year is enough to raise 9 new infantry regiments and 7 cavalry regiments. May also sees the the beginning of King Louis' invasion of the Spanish Netherlands, a conflict that would become known as the War of Devolution, as King Louis' legal arguments for the war involved the idea that certain territories "devolved" on his wife at King Felipe IV's death.
For the Dutch, this was too much to bare. The possibility of a war fought of two fronts, not to mention the apparent English preparations for an invasion of their homeland, led to the Grand Pensionary formally suing for peace. The negotiations formally begin in London in June.
The English negotiations were officially led by Lord Clarendon, assisted by Lord Henry Bennet, Baron Arlington Sir William Morice, the Southern and Northern Secretarys, receptively, the Honorable Henry Coventry, and Denzil Holles, Baron Holles. The English demands were steep. Formal secession of New Netherland (Dutch colonies in North America) , captured in 1665, control of all of the Banda Islands, control of various Forts on the African coast, trade Stations in the East Indies and India financial compensation for the disruption of English trade and the appointment of the Prince of Orange to "a position fitting of his status."
The Dutch are agast, with several members of the Dutch delagation walking out of the negotiating room. Many delegates now want to continue the war, writing home to friends in the States-General saying such. The Grand Pensionary even considers finally implementing his raiding plan when news of one final humiliation finally arrives. In April the Return Spice Fleet was captured by an English squadron of the coast of Africa. Under normal circumstances these fleets, mainly operated by the Dutch East India Company or VEC, leave the East Indies twice a year, laden with riches. However, by the time the 1665 fleet arrived, the Fleets had stopped, remaining in port until it was safe to depart. But, with the massive defeat of the Dutch Fleet at the Four days battle, word is sent to the East indies for the Fleet to head to the Netherlands. Departing in January, the fleet was intercepted by an English squadron led by Admiral Sir Thomas Teddeman. The Admiral managed to overtake the Fleet, making up for his failure to capture the 1665 Spice Fleet. The captured Fleet arrives at Portsmouth in early July and is proudly shown off to the horrified Dutch delegation. The cargo is estimated at around 3 million guilders, making it one of the richest Spice Fleets in history. And its all in the hands of the English.
With the capture of the Spice fleet, the Dutch state is nearly bankrupt. With no hope to continue the war, the Grand Pensionary instructs his brother Cornelis de Witt, leader of the Dutch Delegation, to negotiate in full and to delay no longer. The resulting Treaty of Whitehall, signed on July 21st, is the recognition of the ultimate humiliation for the Dutch. The treaty included clauses formally ceding New Netherland, the Banda Islands, the majority of Dutch forts on the African coast, all trade stations and settlements in Dutch Malabar, and part of Ceylon. Also included is Financial compensation, made all the more humiliating by the capture of the Spice Fleet, in the amount of £2 million, to be payed in £200,000 increments over 10 years. And finally, the appointment of the Prince of Orange to the positions of Captain-General and General Admiral once he reached the age of 18. The Second Anglo-Dutch war was now over (though the Danish were in talks for a separate peace, they ultimately waited and signed the final Treaty with the Dutch and French).
Signing of the Treaty of Whitehall
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Razgriz 2K9
Banned
Talk about a devastating defeat, I dunno..with all of that...I don't think the Dutch have any more overseas possessions...if they do...I doubt the Stuarts would rest until it goes to the English.
They still have large parts in the East Indies, several enclaves in South America (Dutch Guinea), enclaves in India, South Africa, and part of Ceylon. The Dutch are battered but not beaten. Not yet at any rate.
Ouch, talk about a humiliation! 
It seems that the only major East Indies ports the Dutch would still have are Batavia and Malacca, unless one of them -or both- were wrestled out of their hands by the treaty.
It seems that the only major East Indies ports the Dutch would still have are Batavia and Malacca, unless one of them -or both- were wrestled out of their hands by the treaty.
Razgriz 2K9
Banned
No, but if the Franco-Dutch War happens, consider the Dutch Colonial Empire non-existent after this.
The Franco-Dutch war, or its TTL equivalent, will still happen (the French hatred from the Dutch "betrayal" in the War of Devolution will still be there) but England might not get involved. After all, that war was out of revenge for the defeat in the second Dutch war. Here there is no reason. Plus I haven't entirely decided what the fate of the Dutch will be.
Rupert and Maria is likely as a peace guarantee, by virtue of Amelia of Orange being interested in closer family ties between the Princes of Orange and English Royal Family. And Maria was betrothed to Palatinate prince, a cousin of Rupert, anyways - Amelia may see the support of English court more important than marrying off her daughter to a relative nobody (though without need to cement peace it's landless Rupert who would have been a nobody, his cousin at least holds a petite principality). The initial marriage plans of 1666 may be postponed due to plague and then in 1667 Maria of Orange will marry Rupert to cement the peace (the betrothal with Louis-Henry being officially broken near the end of 1666, and Maria marrying first cousin of her previous fiance in October-November 1667 - it may coincide with the birth of "new and improved" Duc de Valois, BTW).
Also, I found a way to have Elisabeth-Charlotte of Palatinate as second Duchess of York:
1. Have William III be married before 1670 (maybe his grandmother will do some matchmaking, in fact we can see her going for Danish Princess to try and secure an ally against further humiliations, so Wilhelmina-Ernestine may end up getting married to Netherlands instead of Palatinate, thus Electoral Prince Charles of Palatinate will need another wife (one of daughters of Duke of Courland?Ulrika-Eleonora of Denmark?).
2. Have Charles-Louis of Palatinate viewing marriage to the heir of Duchy of Courland as something too low for his daughter so by 1671 he's still in search of suitable fiancé.
3. Have Rupert to be on good terms with Duke of York by 1671.
4. Have Rupert to notify this lady - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Hollandine_of_the_Palatinate - that Duke of York is now single. She was the second most favorite sibling of Rupert and a matchmaker supreme of Palatinate Electoral Family.
5. Have Louise convince Charles-Louis that Duke of York is a good match for his daughter.
6. PROFIT!
======
I can't see Rupert playing a matchmaker directly, but with intermediate in form of his sister it is possible (though she'll be more interested in getting cool matches for orphaned daughters of Edward, but if something is good for the plot - just like "laundering" of Treaty of Dover by later-in-life dynastic marriage between Bourbons and Stuarts in my own project - it shall happen if there is at least one non-ASB chain of events leading to such outcome).
Also, I found a way to have Elisabeth-Charlotte of Palatinate as second Duchess of York:
1. Have William III be married before 1670 (maybe his grandmother will do some matchmaking, in fact we can see her going for Danish Princess to try and secure an ally against further humiliations, so Wilhelmina-Ernestine may end up getting married to Netherlands instead of Palatinate, thus Electoral Prince Charles of Palatinate will need another wife (one of daughters of Duke of Courland?Ulrika-Eleonora of Denmark?).
2. Have Charles-Louis of Palatinate viewing marriage to the heir of Duchy of Courland as something too low for his daughter so by 1671 he's still in search of suitable fiancé.
3. Have Rupert to be on good terms with Duke of York by 1671.
4. Have Rupert to notify this lady - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Hollandine_of_the_Palatinate - that Duke of York is now single. She was the second most favorite sibling of Rupert and a matchmaker supreme of Palatinate Electoral Family.
5. Have Louise convince Charles-Louis that Duke of York is a good match for his daughter.
6. PROFIT!
======
I can't see Rupert playing a matchmaker directly, but with intermediate in form of his sister it is possible (though she'll be more interested in getting cool matches for orphaned daughters of Edward, but if something is good for the plot - just like "laundering" of Treaty of Dover by later-in-life dynastic marriage between Bourbons and Stuarts in my own project - it shall happen if there is at least one non-ASB chain of events leading to such outcome).
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http://www.naturodoc.com/library/lifestyle/ulcers.htm
May be useful in developing longer-living Madame POD. If we discard modern stuff (smoking, aspirin) the keys are diet and the least amount of stresses possible.
May be useful in developing longer-living Madame POD. If we discard modern stuff (smoking, aspirin) the keys are diet and the least amount of stresses possible.
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Also, a marriage of Rupert to Maria of Orange in 1667 may warm up his relationships with Charles-Louis. Now that Rupert is not a "parasite asking for appanage" but a married man (non-morganatically at that) with secured stable source of income, the sibling rivalry between two brothers may decrease strongly. Thus one more link in the chain leading to your dream Duchess of York.
Thanks I'll have to look into those links. At this point I'm finishing up the beginning of the '70s, with Anne Hyde's death being in it. I would like to have Liselotte as the Duchess of York, but I'm also considered a few others. I'm also considering Archduchess Claudia Felicitas, who was an OTL choice, but was snatched up by the Emperor before such a marriage could happen. Part of my TL will involve the Infanta Margarita Teresa living for a bit longer (she'll have less miscarriages which weakened her to the point of death OTL) so the Emperor won't grab the Archduchess. Having an Austrian link will also help with part of my plans later down the road. So the Palatinate is my first pick but an Archduchess is a close second (I'm not sure what to do with Mary Beatrice. Maybe a match in Italy?).
Finally a question about the first Duc de Valois. I was looking on the Wikipedia page for Henriette-Anne and it says that she fell ill with convulsions as a baby but recovered. So does convulsions always mean they'll have epileptic problems or no? If no I think I'll have the Duc survive but if not, I'll have Madame's 1667 pregnancy produce a boy.
I'll have to look into those links. At this point I'm finishing up the beginning of the '70s, with Anne Hyde's death being in it. I would like to have Liselotte as the Duchess of York, but I'm also considered a few others. I'm also considering Archduchess Claudia Felicitas, who was an OTL choice, but was snatched up by the Emperor before such a marriage could happen. Part of my TL will involve the Infanta Margarita Teresa living for a bit longer (she'll have less miscarriages which weakened her to the point of death OTL) so the Emperor won't grab the Archduchess. Having an Austrian link will also help with part of my plans later down the road. So the Palatinate is my first pick but an Archduchess is a close second (I'm not sure what to do with Mary Beatrice. Maybe a match in Italy?).Finally a question about the first Duc de Valois. I was looking on the Wikipedia page for Henriette-Anne and it says that she fell ill with convulsions as a baby but recovered. So does convulsions always mean they'll have epileptic problems or no? If no I think I'll have the Duc survive but if not, I'll have Madame's 1667 pregnancy produce a boy.
There is such medical condition as congenital convulsive disorder. In girls it sometimes disappear on its own when they reach puberty (in my case it was so), though it correlates with general nervous system instability. It seems that Henriette was a case of this.
We don't know for sure whether the Duc de Valois had genuine epilepsy or anything from this list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-epileptic_seizures
But considering their parents are first cousins I'm not outruling congenital epilepsy. Not to mention that congenital convulsive disorders go differently in boys and in girls.
Claudia Felicitas as OTL choice seems HIGHLY odd for me. As proposed match - maybe - same as Maria de Longueville was in 1646, but I don't see a heiress to Tyrol being married to an English prince. Claudia might have been proposed before 1665 while she was not a heiress and her uncle was still living and could have sons, but after 1665 such a match is highly unlikely.
You may attempt to marry off Mary of Modena to Prince Ferdinando de Medici, if you want a good Italian match. He was gay, but Mary is better looking that his OTL wife and he'll be more stimulated to perform his duties in the bed.
We don't know for sure whether the Duc de Valois had genuine epilepsy or anything from this list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-epileptic_seizures
But considering their parents are first cousins I'm not outruling congenital epilepsy. Not to mention that congenital convulsive disorders go differently in boys and in girls.
Claudia Felicitas as OTL choice seems HIGHLY odd for me. As proposed match - maybe - same as Maria de Longueville was in 1646, but I don't see a heiress to Tyrol being married to an English prince. Claudia might have been proposed before 1665 while she was not a heiress and her uncle was still living and could have sons, but after 1665 such a match is highly unlikely.
You may attempt to marry off Mary of Modena to Prince Ferdinando de Medici, if you want a good Italian match. He was gay, but Mary is better looking that his OTL wife and he'll be more stimulated to perform his duties in the bed.
Nevermind, read up about the negotiations on marriage in 1672. So Claudia Felicitas is a way to go, it seems. Emperor even agreed, and her heiress status was not a problem (Salic law was in effect in Tyrol but for some reason I was convinced that Claudia was a heiress).
She's a good bride, though I don't see her thriving well in English climate - too severe of a difference to the one she was used to.
She's a good bride, though I don't see her thriving well in English climate - too severe of a difference to the one she was used to.
So it could go either way. I mean there are some definite instances of epilepsy in the 1660s. Philip Prospero, first son of Philip IV and Marianna died of convulsions, which was either epilepsy or from a weakened immune system due to inbreeding (unlike his brother Carlos Philip's issues weren't obvious). Though sense neither of Henriette's daughters had epilepsy, convulsions (as far as I can tell) or with Anne Marie passed it on to her descendents, it could have been a childhood illness, something that the Duc would have grown out of given the chance.
As to Claudia Felicitas, she was actually Charles II's main pick for a bride for James after Anne's death. Apparently talks had began before Margarita Teresa died, in which case the Emperor quickly married her. And was she really the heir of Further Austria and the Tyrol in a legal sense? Cause I see that after her uncles death, those territories went to the Emperor as the last male heir of the Imperial Habsburgs. So was she heiress to estates in the Tyrol or did she have an actual legal claim to the Duchy(?) itself?
Finally, as to the Grand Prince, I was actually thinking of a more English match. After all, Queen Catherine will be having more children (though Fernando would probably prefer to marry the Prince of Wales over one of his sisters
) so an Italian match isn't impossible, though it would be a big age difference. So maybe Mary Beatrice would be best as Grand Princess. We know she was fertile and beautiful (described as one of the most beautiful Queens England ever had) so maybe she would be more of Fernando's taste. Plus a d'Este or Farnese would be closer in age to another daughter of Charles and Catherine.Edit: My bad, I finished commenting before I saw your last post. But yeah Claudia is on paper the best choice. Though your right about a big difference in climate. But on the other hand, wasn't the climates of the Tyrol and Modena similar? So if Mary Beatrice could do it Claudia should be OK as well. As far as I can tell she wasn't especially delicate, like other Princesses, so she should be fine. Plus it would create a good line of communication between London and Vienna, like how Madame acted as a line between Paris and London.
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Modena is MUCH closer to sea than Tyrol, warm sea but nevertheless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Modena
And she had a legal claim to Duchy (sort of) being the only surviving child of penultimate Duke of Tyrol. Though it never come into discussion in 1672, so I believe that Emperor simply decided to return the lands in domain directly, instead of waiting for any sons of Claudia, and then he grabbed Claudia herself.
And for the best outcome for Henriette - how about Duc de Valois recovering AND healthy Duc de Chartres born in 1667?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Modena
And she had a legal claim to Duchy (sort of) being the only surviving child of penultimate Duke of Tyrol. Though it never come into discussion in 1672, so I believe that Emperor simply decided to return the lands in domain directly, instead of waiting for any sons of Claudia, and then he grabbed Claudia herself.
And for the best outcome for Henriette - how about Duc de Valois recovering AND healthy Duc de Chartres born in 1667?
That's what I was thinking as well. As to a claim, sense it never came up as a stumbling bock in the negotiations I assume that Tyrol was under Salic law. Though adding a renunciation clause in the marriage treaty couldn't hurt.
Edited my post above for Henriette.
How about Duc de Valois surviving (best outcome possible, non-epileptic convulsive disorder) AND Duc de Chartres being born in 1667?
Surviving Duc de Valois may add sub-POD of new doctor of Orleans family thus helping Henriette to thrive in long run. Somebody who understands the role of diet and is a lot more skeptical about bloodletting as universal cure.
How about Duc de Valois surviving (best outcome possible, non-epileptic convulsive disorder) AND Duc de Chartres being born in 1667?
Surviving Duc de Valois may add sub-POD of new doctor of Orleans family thus helping Henriette to thrive in long run. Somebody who understands the role of diet and is a lot more skeptical about bloodletting as universal cure.
For some reason I see this guy as a court physician of Henriette
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Bourdelot
He has already cured one very high-born patient from her neuroses (court physician of Christine of Sweden). Probably him as savior of Madame and her son?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Bourdelot
He has already cured one very high-born patient from her neuroses (court physician of Christine of Sweden). Probably him as savior of Madame and her son?
I like it! That way the House of Orleans thrives, and there's a potential for the Orleans wealth to be divided. Maybe an English doctor could be employed? Medical knowledge and professionals in history aren't my forte but I know that there was a doctor for Christina of Sweden (a French one I believe) that had her rest more instead of blood-letting after she had some sort of collapse (I'll have to find that part in my bio on her) so I could use him if he's still alive or a student of his if not. And yeah the medical knowledge back then was shit. Did you know, for instance, that Queen Henrietta Maria died of an Opium overdose, prescribed by Louis XIV's doctor? Thankfully, with the Queen Mother back in England, she'll live longer and get to enjoy her family a bit more.