Apollinis et Dianae: A Story of Power, Magnificence and Glory
- Thread starter Emperor Constantine
- Start date
You mentioned three surviving children of James, so James of Cambridge is not dead in the plague epidemics here (and will become first 2nd Duke of York in many generations)?
Yep! At the very least the House of York will continue for at least one more generation. To be honest I'm considering having cadet branches for the House of Stuart, like the Bourbon's Princes du Sang. However, you'll have to wait to find out.
Not sure. At least threw the ATL War of Spanish Succession, which, once we get there, will pretty much shock everyone.
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Any spoilers for bride for future King? Though via year of birth I can guess - either a French first cousin (OTL Duchess of Savoy) (b.1669), or for the sake of historical recognition Sophia-Charlotte of Hannover(b.1668)? Or somebody out of left field (surviving Madame Royal or some minor Protestant princess)?
Also, will Rupert of the Rhine turn down the invitation to become a Duke of Simmern-Kaiserslautern in 1673 in TTL or will he accept it thus butterflying away Nine-Years War as we know it? In OTL he was encouraged to accept it even with his spouse being morganatic (he was encouraged to marry Peg Hughes, his second official mistress, at some point of their relationship, and Imperial Law allowed a (costly) loophole out of morganatic marriages for lesser principalities which the Duchy of Simmer-Kaiserslautern is).
Also, will Rupert of the Rhine turn down the invitation to become a Duke of Simmern-Kaiserslautern in 1673 in TTL or will he accept it thus butterflying away Nine-Years War as we know it? In OTL he was encouraged to accept it even with his spouse being morganatic (he was encouraged to marry Peg Hughes, his second official mistress, at some point of their relationship, and Imperial Law allowed a (costly) loophole out of morganatic marriages for lesser principalities which the Duchy of Simmer-Kaiserslautern is).
And there IS a Conde-type relation cadet branch of House of Stuart, descending from this guy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Stewart,_2nd_Earl_of_Moray, direct legitimate descendants of Robert II of Scotland (they interbred with illegitimate descendants of James V at some point thus creating the confusion).
But the Morays are cadet branch in the sense Conde or Soissons were. And that is a fact to consider in history of Scotland - there is always a pretender branch around just in case Scots want to separate from England.
But the Morays are cadet branch in the sense Conde or Soissons were. And that is a fact to consider in history of Scotland - there is always a pretender branch around just in case Scots want to separate from England.
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Sadly I can't give spoilers for the future Queen of England, as once I do my plans will be pretty obvious.
As to Rupert of the Palatinate, I'm not sure yet. Right now I'm considering a way for him to get a Royal bride and bring another interesting character or two into the Restoration Court. At this point I'm focusing on finishing up the 1660s.
Ah did not know that. Though considering they didn't seem to play any role in the Restoration Court or later, I'm thinking of keeping my original plans. What I'm doing slowly bringing in French positions, ceremonies and organizational ways to the Court of England, while keeping it in a decidedly English flair.
Morays got some sort of prominence due to intermarrying with Argylls. Thus in my TL there is a "kid gloves" attitude towards 10th Earl of Argyll -his mother is one of Morays, thus under Scottish succession laws he is a valid Prince of Blood. Though the proper Earl of Moray in this time period was a Jacobite.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archibald_Campbell,_9th_Earl_of_Argyll
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Stuart,_5th_Earl_of_Moray
And as for marriage for Rupert and Royal Bride - he'll be landless till about 1673 when the secundogeniture title will be promised to him, and unlike Emperors of HRE, Kings of Britain don't have the brides of principal dignity waiting around. So the possible brides during 1660ies is either Lady Frances Bard (plagiarism from my TL) or...
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_van_Nassau_%281642-1688%29
She was betrothed to Rupert's cousin, Louis-Henry of Simmern-Kaiserslautern, but with England doing much better in Second Anglo-Dutch War the betrothal may be broken and she'll marry Rupert as part of peace negotiations. A mirror of OTL marriage of Mary Stuart to William III, if you like. If the Orangists want a separate peace with Britain, the marriage of the only non-married aunt of William III to an English prince of blood is the way to go.
And she and Rupert MAY have children - it was her husband who had major fertility problems and health problems in general.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archibald_Campbell,_9th_Earl_of_Argyll
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Stuart,_5th_Earl_of_Moray
And as for marriage for Rupert and Royal Bride - he'll be landless till about 1673 when the secundogeniture title will be promised to him, and unlike Emperors of HRE, Kings of Britain don't have the brides of principal dignity waiting around. So the possible brides during 1660ies is either Lady Frances Bard (plagiarism from my TL) or...
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_van_Nassau_%281642-1688%29
She was betrothed to Rupert's cousin, Louis-Henry of Simmern-Kaiserslautern, but with England doing much better in Second Anglo-Dutch War the betrothal may be broken and she'll marry Rupert as part of peace negotiations. A mirror of OTL marriage of Mary Stuart to William III, if you like. If the Orangists want a separate peace with Britain, the marriage of the only non-married aunt of William III to an English prince of blood is the way to go.
And she and Rupert MAY have children - it was her husband who had major fertility problems and health problems in general.
She surely looks flamboyant enough for English court and may be additional supporter for bringing in "Dutch" stuff (i.e. banking) to England. Her OTL marriage happened on September 23, 1666 - but at this time the things are sh*tty enough for Dutch to break the betrothal and attempt to marry her to another Palatinate Prince, who, while landless, DOES matter in terms of peace negotiations.
Also, like her sisters, she was a big fan of palaces named "Orange-something" (in her case, Oranienhof), so she may attempt something like this at English court.
More images of her. She may end up married to Rupert as a literal "trophy wife".
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I'll go ahead and tell you what I'm thinking of. In my TL the first Madame, Henriette-Anne, will live longer, though with bouts of ill health, leaving the second Madame, Elizabeth Charlotte Princess Palatine single. I'm thinking of having the OTL Duchesse d'Orleans become TTL's second Duchess of York. I'll have to find a way to get around Charles' dislike of Elector Charles Ludwig but it might work. Now, if I go down this route, I'll have Rupert be instrumental in selecting his niece for this position. In gratitude, Charles II will find Rupert a Royal bride.
Does this sound realistic or no?
Maria of Nassau is more interesting character in regards of possible bride for Rupert as she may play into ATL outcome of Second Anglo-Dutch War and Orangists wanting separate peace (sort of reverse of OTL Mary and William).
And Rupert disliked Charles-Ludwig probably even more than Charles II did, so with no ulcer for Henriette-Anne of Orleans OTL Duchess of Orleans will probably become Princess of Orange or Duchess of Courland as was planned originally. I simply cannot image Rupert playing the matchmaker with the brother he dislikes. Not to mention Anne Hyde didn't die of cancer until 1671, and if Henriette survives, the marriage negotiations may be way ahead with William III or Prince of Courland.
However - IF Rupert is married in 1666-1667 (a "trophy wife" I suggested) his relations with Charles-Ludwig may improve slightly. And he may offer a help in negotiations. But with longer-living first Madame the most plausible outcome for Elisabeth-Charlotte is to end up as Princess of Orange, as I suspect 1671 will be too late for any advances on part of Duke of York.
And Rupert disliked Charles-Ludwig probably even more than Charles II did, so with no ulcer for Henriette-Anne of Orleans OTL Duchess of Orleans will probably become Princess of Orange or Duchess of Courland as was planned originally. I simply cannot image Rupert playing the matchmaker with the brother he dislikes. Not to mention Anne Hyde didn't die of cancer until 1671, and if Henriette survives, the marriage negotiations may be way ahead with William III or Prince of Courland.
However - IF Rupert is married in 1666-1667 (a "trophy wife" I suggested) his relations with Charles-Ludwig may improve slightly. And he may offer a help in negotiations. But with longer-living first Madame the most plausible outcome for Elisabeth-Charlotte is to end up as Princess of Orange, as I suspect 1671 will be too late for any advances on part of Duke of York.
BTW, from the medical POV the esophagus ulcer aggravated by neurotic anorexia (diagnosis of Henriette-Anna) is quite severe sh*t by standards of 17th century medicine. And I simply don't see how you butterfly a better psychological environment for her. She was simply not created for long-time stresses (same predisposition for neuroses is believed to kill her eldest daughter).
Buying a few extra years of life, though, I can buy.
Buying a few extra years of life, though, I can buy.
As for alternate candidate for Duchess of York...if only we can butterfly in a later marriage for THIS Palatinate princess - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedicta-Henrietta
Though killing her husband circa 1670 "in exchange" of prolonging Henriette-Anne's life is possible, and thus we get one of Rupert's nieces as Duchess of York (and alternate Austrian Habsburgs in a long run).
Though killing her husband circa 1670 "in exchange" of prolonging Henriette-Anne's life is possible, and thus we get one of Rupert's nieces as Duchess of York (and alternate Austrian Habsburgs in a long run).
Benedicta-Henriette also puts the Duke of York in the list of candidates to Polish throne and you seemed to want to touch this part of Europe.
But so far I'm for Rupert marrying Maria of Nassau in 1667 as a part of peace negotiations. And "my daughter is a prisoner of war" being said by Amalia of Orange in TTL
But so far I'm for Rupert marrying Maria of Nassau in 1667 as a part of peace negotiations. And "my daughter is a prisoner of war" being said by Amalia of Orange in TTL
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Didn't realize that the Palatine Brothers hated each other so much. OK no Palatinate Princess for England. And Maria of Nassau seems interesting so I think I'll try to fit her into the peace, though sense the Oranges weren't in power when the treaty was negotiated (though they will return to power shortly after) it might be a bit difficult. Any idea who betrothed her OTL? If its Amelia Dowager Princess of Orange, I could have her brake the betrothal and use her as a way to cement the treaty after the Orangists return to power.
I'll have to look into it. Any idea when the ulcer developed? If it was after 1666 I could have it never develop. At this point I'm thinking of either having Philippe Charles, Duke de Valois survive or have another pregnancy in 1667, with a boy being born. I feel that with a surviving male heir to the House of Orleans, Madame will have less pressure and maybe not develop that ulcer. I did read that the birth of the Duc de Valois OTL improved her and her husband's relationship, so keep him surviving, or produce another boy, and the relationship would likely remain somewhat cordial.
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Amelia was betrothing all her daughters so she'll try to do that, her daughter being the only capital she may invest in separate peace. Which she wishes as is English being supportive of reversal of Cromwell's ultimatum = William III becoming Stadtholder.
And the first recorded symptoms of "intermittent, intense pain in her side" were recorded in 1667. But I'm quite careful with medical PODs, and Philippe de Valois suffered of epileptic symptoms.
And the first recorded symptoms of "intermittent, intense pain in her side" were recorded in 1667. But I'm quite careful with medical PODs, and Philippe de Valois suffered of epileptic symptoms.
This pregnancy being successful may be a POD you want to look in for Henriette. This is the only thing in her medical history that may help here.
As for Benedicte-Henriette of Palatinate, you may have her OTL husband to catch some nasty illness on the way from Hannover to Paris, so she's widowed without marriage even consummated, and pronto - a Palatinate Duchess of York, from another branch, and with bonus of claims to Polish throne.
This could work. At this point, the TTL peace treaty between England and the Netherlands is very severe to the Dutch, and once it comes out the anger at the Grand Pensionary and his supporters will cause them to lose power (Haven't decided if de Witt will die the same as OTL, be banished/flee or be executed) leading to William III being elected Stadtholder in 1667. Now at this point he would be only sixteen and still technically a minor (though I'm sure the States-General could declare him at his majority) so I'm seeing his grandmother dominate the government for the first few years. Now this is what I'm thinking: the English are understandability worried, as a new government could lead to the terms of the treaty be voided, so to help allay fears Amelia offers a marriage alliance, with her daughter Maria of Orange-Nassau (her OTL betrothal being broken after the dutch defeats in 1666) to the only single male of the English Royal Family, Prince Rupert of the Palatinate. Though not a prestigious for either party, its acceptable for the English, with the marriage taking place in late 1667.
Now as to Madame and her children, I thought that the Duc de Valois had epileptic syndromes so better to have the second Duc de Valois (maybe even the same name?) born in 1667. IDK how ulcers work, but even if it develops like OTL, could less stress mean that its less devastating to her health?
An ulcer means a strict diet (she tried to adhere to one, and in the aggravation period she could only drink milk) - I don't know if it's possible with court cuisine of French Court and Louis XIV loving grand feast.
But with a bout of luck, an advocate of mineral water treatment among Duchess' doctors it may become chronic = Henriette may live another 6-7 years past her OTL death.
Once again, I'm not a doctor, merely a translator for medical tourism agency, and speak from my own experience with chronic duodenal ulcer and 21th century medicine treatment of it. But back then a diet and healthy psychological environment are a key. If you get a supporter of non-traditional (back then) treatment with mineral waters in her inner circle - the outcome may be even better.
BTW there was another famous person killed by neurotic ulcer in this very same time period - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michał_Korybut_Wiśniowiecki
The most unlucky King of Poland.
But with a bout of luck, an advocate of mineral water treatment among Duchess' doctors it may become chronic = Henriette may live another 6-7 years past her OTL death.
Once again, I'm not a doctor, merely a translator for medical tourism agency, and speak from my own experience with chronic duodenal ulcer and 21th century medicine treatment of it. But back then a diet and healthy psychological environment are a key. If you get a supporter of non-traditional (back then) treatment with mineral waters in her inner circle - the outcome may be even better.
BTW there was another famous person killed by neurotic ulcer in this very same time period - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michał_Korybut_Wiśniowiecki
The most unlucky King of Poland.