Zionism without Palestine

Yonatan

Banned
Let me get this straight, they had no reason to fear the man who constantly made threats to invade and expand the Greater Germany? Plus with the appeasement going on, you'd think that they'd feel afraid.

Your argument in no way refutes mine. I see no discrepancy. European Jews from Europe fled to Palestine, and are the majority of the Jews in Israel now.

I did mention the Nazis, as a factor for German Jews. eastern Europe had its own antisemitic assholes doing their best to make Jews not feel safe, but no one expected Hitler to go out and burn half of Europe to the ground. my list provides the reasons for the fifth Aliyah, from 1929-1939.

and no, European Jews are not the majority in Israel, but they were pre-1947. today the majority (around 55%) are Mizrachi.
 
only thats totally not the case of Israeli Jews 50.2% are Mizrahi Jews and Sephardic Jews (i.e. coming from, or descended from Arab/Muslim countries) 2.2% are Beta Israel from Ethiopia, and 47.5% are Ashkenazi Jews, 20.9% of Israeli Jews are Russian (meaning they make up a huge part of the Ashkenazi) only 2.7% are German/Austrian

That's false. That's just false.

Please, just. I presented links, you should present the same.

This is like a merry-go-round.

They're European Jews, No,
They're from Russia, NO!
They're Arab Jews, NO..

Well, what's next?

Really, just.

Again, 94k to 360k. HOW IS THAT JUSTIFIABLE. Just how is it possible?

Please, if you're not going to bother to continue making an argument. Please, just at least present proof, otherwise, just give up. You're embarrassing yourself.
 
Where did you get this figure from?

Today, there are nearly 5x as many Mizrahi Jews in Israel than there are in the rest of the world combined.

Most Sephardi Jews (who were the other main Jewish group living in the Arab states) went to Israel instead of the United States or France (whose large Sephardi community is almost entirely due to the fact that the Algerian Jews were given French Citizenship).

Mizrahi Jews make up 1.3 million of the Jewish population of Israel. You know, that's 1.3 out of 6 million?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews#cite_note-jewishvirtuallibrary.org-1

This is basic logic.
 
I did mention the Nazis, as a factor for German Jews. eastern Europe had its own antisemitic assholes doing their best to make Jews not feel safe, but no one expected Hitler to go out and burn half of Europe to the ground. my list provides the reasons for the fifth Aliyah, from 1929-1939.

and no, European Jews are not the majority in Israel, but they were pre-1947. today the majority (around 55%) are Mizrachi.

1.3 million of Israel is Mizrahi. Meaning only 20% of the population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews#cite_note-jewishvirtuallibrary.org-1

Hitler's confiscation of Jewish property wasn't done in Russia or the rest of Europe, thus, don't you think that it would've been a sort of a hint for Hitler's anti-semitism? You know? The person who publicly stated that Jews weren't fit as humans and created the SS probably isn't the friendliest person to the Jews.
 
European Jews from Europe fled to Palestine, and are the majority of the Jews in Israel now.

I don't know where you find statistical support for that. Although people descended from Ashkenazi Jews form the largest single ethnic group in Israel (3 million), they make up not quite 50% of Jews in Israel as a whole. That percentage was reached only because of the huge influx of ex-Soviet Jews since 1991(1.2 million). Mizrahi (Jews descended from Middle Eastern Jews) and Sephardic Jews (descended from Iberian Jews who later migrated to various parts of N. Africa and the Middle East are close behind (2.7 million). The rest, from Ethiopia, India, converts, and a few miss. communities from disparate parts of the World.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews for starters.

Edit: my source is based on 2009 demographics. Yonatan's might be more up to date and more official.
 

Yonatan

Banned
1.3 million of Israel is Mizrahi. Meaning only 20% of the population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews#cite_note-jewishvirtuallibrary.org-1

Hitler's confiscation of Jewish property wasn't done in Russia or the rest of Europe, thus, don't you think that it would've been a sort of a hint for Hitler's anti-semitism? You know? The person who publicly stated that Jews weren't fit as humans and created the SS probably isn't the friendliest person to the Jews.

I include their descendents in Israel who are currently listed as "2nd generation Israeli", that is a child who's parents were also born in the country. otherwise you have slightly over 2 million Jews who dont fall into either category.
 
I include their descendents in Israel who are currently listed as "2nd generation Israeli", that is a child who's parents were also born in the country. otherwise you have slightly over 2 million Jews who dont fall into either category.

Excuse me, but that really means nothing. The argument we were making was regarding the Mizrahi Jews.

Also, check my link. It proves the exact opposite of your statement. About 2.8-4 million Are European, meaning that even if your argument works I'm still right. They are a minority

My argument was that the Jews that founded israel were ALL Europeans, a point which I used to counter-argue a point that stated that Israel was founded by Jewish Arabs.

This is just a game of semantics.
 
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I don't know where you find statistical support for that. Although people descended from Ashkenazi Jews form the largest single ethnic group in Israel (3 million), they make up not quite 50% of Jews in Israel as a whole. That percentage was reached only because of the huge influx of ex-Soviet Jews since 1991(1.2 million). Mizrahi (Jews descended from Middle Eastern Jews) and Sephardic Jews (descended from Iberian Jews who later migrated to various parts of N. Africa and the Middle East are close behind (2.7 million). The rest, from Ethiopia, India, converts, and a few miss. communities from disparate parts of the World.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews for starters.

Edit: my source is based on 2009 demographics. Yonatan's might be more up to date and more official.

There was no distinction made between Sephardim and Ashkenazim. Regardless of what happens, European Jews were in 48 (BEFORE The Jewish exodus) larger.

I really think most of you are mistaking my argument.

Before the Jewish exodus, most of the people were European Jews who founded Israel.

I presented my source for that before in my previous argument.
 
Excuse me, but that really means nothing. The argument we were making was regarding the Mizrahi Jews.

Also, check my link. It proves the exact opposite of your statement. About 2.8-4 million Are European, meaning that even if your argument works I'm still right. They are a minority

From your very source:
Today Sephardic rite make up more than half of Israel's Jewish population, and Mizrahi Jews proper are a major part of them. Before the mass immigration of 1,000,000 from the former Soviet Union, mostly of Ashkenazi rite, followers of the Sephardic rite made up over 70% of Israel's Jewish population.[

You do realize that both Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews (who share the Sephardic rite) are not European Jews, right?
 
From your very source:


You do realize that both Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews (who share the Sephardic rite) are not European Jews, right?

There was no distinction made between Sephardim and Ashkenazim. Thus, European Jews can technically be considered the majority.

Had you read the argument against me, you'd see that he said that the people who founded Israel were Jewish Arabs.

This is untrue. Jewish Arabs began to become a majority again during the Jewish exodus around the time of the Nakba. This really makes no difference in my argument.
 

Yonatan

Banned
Excuse me, but that really means nothing. The argument we were making was regarding the Mizrahi Jews.

Also, check my link. It proves the exact opposite of your statement. About 2.8-4 million Are European, meaning that even if your argument works I'm still right. They are a minority

ok, maybe you did not understand what I said.

out of 5.9 million Jews in Israel today, 2.8 are European AND AMERICAN born, or descended from such. the rest are Mizrahi, Sephardi (who I counted with the Mizrahi because you counted based on country of origin, rather then the specific cultural group, so I grouped them seeing how both are from the middle east and africa) and their descendents make up slightly over 50% of the Jewish population.
while only 1.3 million can claim to be born in those countries or be first generation born in Israel, the 2nd generation does not get counted like that in your link. the wiki article itself admits its only an estimation. for example, the wiki article on Ashkenazi Jews http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews lists the Israeli population at between 2.8-4 million, depending on how you count their descendents. the main problem is determining what a child of an Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic parents will be counted as. Mizrahi/Sephardic families tend to have more kids as well then their Ashkenazi counterparts.

there is also this article, also on wiki, which lists Mizrahi and Sephardic as over 50% as of 2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Jews

wikipedia is not reliable enough in this fashion. 3 articles give 3 different figures. I use the official statistics which list the divide as 45-55%, with the 45% being the Ashkenazi Jews.
 
Let me get this straight, they had no reason to fear the man who constantly made threats to invade and expand the Greater Germany? Plus with the appeasement going on, you'd think that they'd feel afraid.

Your argument in no way refutes mine. I see no discrepancy. European Jews from Europe fled to Palestine, and are the majority of the Jews in Israel now.

If I recall correctly, this argument started over whether or not Hitler was directly responsible for the existence of a viable Jewish state in the Middle East. That's why it is noteworthy that most of the fifth wave of Jewish settlers did not come from Germany. If you were a Jew in Poland or Russia, what reason did you have to fear Nazi Germany before the very late 1930's? He made a lot of noise, true, but it was an option question if even Hitler was mad enough to plunge the world into the horrors of war after what had been seen in the first war. Lots of people, incorrectly, seemed to be willing to assume that he would not, that he would only seek treaty revisions. Past that, even if you believed that Hitler meant what he said in his little book (and not what he so often said in his speeches, that he wanted peace), if you lived in Poland or Russia, what reason did you have to fear him? Based on the experience of the last war, why would you expect all of Poland to fall to the Germans, and to do so quickly enough to make it difficult if not impossible for you to flee? Wouldn't you assume from the previous war that even if Germany attacked Poland, it would take months if not years to conquer the entire nation, giving civilians time to flee to the east? Secondly, I think you are underestimating human nature when it comes to sensing further threats. If you were a German Jew, Germany was your home, it was all you knew. Giving up all that and leaving would be a difficult decision. Even after the Nazis came to power, with their anti-semetic rhetoric, there would be a lot of people who simply assumed it was all show, or it would all blow over. Even after they started enacting anti-Jewish laws, I think few people really understood how far the Nazis would take it. If you read diaries and autobiographies of Jews living in Germany at this time, one thing that almost always comes through is the sheer shock of Krystalnacht. I really think for many people, this was the first time they realized the Nazis meant it. That the Nazis weren't just going to ban them from professorships, they actually aimed to hurt or even kill them. But before that?

Looking at the evidence, I think it is reasonable to assume that most of the settlers in the fifth wave, or at least that portion of it from 1929-1937 or so, were motivated more by economic turmoil and the old-style anti-semitism of Eastern Europe than fear of Hitler's Germany directly.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Funny how that the way it technically is described by ONE organisation means that it is that way.

First off that was due to the Iron Curtain.

Second off, culturally speaking, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Austria are part of Central Europe.

ONE definition means nothing.

Again. My point is that they FLED from NAZIS. This is approved by almost all sane human beings and Israel itself.

Also, you must have some serious mental issues. Don't attribute statements to me that I never made. I NEVER said Jewish Arabs came because of Nazism, they came because of the Jewish Exodus POST 1948. You're the one who stated that they were the ones who made the state of Israel. Which I refuted by telling you that the majority were all Europeans fleeing Nazism. Seriously, I must've stated that point 20 times.

Either you can't read, or you're just making things up as you go along to discredit me.

P.S: Germany in that shot is described as Western Europe. And again, my argument is that those areas were under Nazi influence. Do I really need to spell this out?

Well, let me spell something out here for you. We deal with each other in a civil manner on this board. You do NOT get to accuse other members of "serious mental issues". For that matter you do not get to come into the Forum and turn it into your personal crusade on a subject, especially when numerous other posters have provided solid proof that you are flat out wrong about your facts.

This is only a warning rather than a more serious action because I am working on the assumption that you are not a native English speaker based on your IP and may have made a couple errors in word selection.

That assumption ends here. You need to conform to the standards of civility that obtain hereabouts starting NOW.
 
Yeah, that is true.

But Israel has never offered the Palestinian refugees full compensation.

That's not quite true. Israel did start a heavily subsidized "build your own home" program for Palestinian refugees, until the UN banned Israel from doing so, since building them homes elsewhere discourages them from seeking right of return. Forty years later, those refugees still don't have permanent homes. Good job, UN.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=960&x_context=7
 
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