Zionism without Palestine

[BrokenWings]

As many of you know, during the original Zionism Conference, there were plenty of candidates for the establishment of the Jewish state. One of them being Argentina. So assuming for a minute, that in '17 Belfour didn't issue his declaration and the Zionists agreed for the establishment of the State of Israel on someone else's land.

How would this have played out? If Israel was created in Argentina, or let's say, Saudi Arabia, what would the repercussions be? Where would Palestine be then? Would Pan-Arab unity still be possible? Or fall apart due to the lack of a common enemy? How would the U.S react? Said argued that the staunch Zionism of some of the Western world is due to an age-old Orientalist seed which considers Israel to be a continuation of Western presence in the Orient. If Israel is no longer in a strategic location, would any support be granted to it?

Also, assuming that Israel destroyed 400 Argentinian villages instead of Palestinian once in it's creation, how would the rest of the world react?

 

[katchen]

I have to say that Patagonia/Tierra del Fuego would have made for a much larger Jewish homeland with far more arable land and natural resources than the land of Israel. And with a lot smaller population to displace and compensate and one which likely WOULD accept compensation.

 

[Maponus]

The problem here is that choosing the Holy Land made Zionism, which was otherwise quite an alienating and pretentious ideology, palatable to normal Jews. Once you subtract the quasi-Messianic of returning to Jerusalem all you have is something attractive to hardcore intellectual Zionist Jews - who before the Holocaust were anything but a majority of Jews. Picking Isreal also meant that Jews who didn't even know what Zionism was would still head towards Israel if they felt they needed to (see Israel's community of Ethiopian Jews who tracked there on foot in direct intimation of Exodus). It's possible that such a project would end up as nothing more than a British equivalent of the Jewish Autonomous Oblast. Without the anti-semitic backlash created by the Mandates imposition on Arabs and the subspent wars and uprisings - most Mizrahim will probably remain in their lands of birth, making this other hypetheotical alternate Jewish homeland largely a place for Ashkenazi idealists to toil on the soil before throwing their hands up in the air and abandoning the place, just as the Jews of the Autonomous Oblast did.

However - if the British do put their stamp of approval on some randomly selected semi-deserted territory - then the butterflies may mean there is no Mandate of Palestine, and therefore the Hashemites (or even the Ottomans) will probably end up allowing Jewish settlement in the Holy Land on there own terms (see the Faisal–Weizmann Agreement). This may seem (and probably is) infinitely preferable from the wider Arab point of view but will probably result in tension when the Labour Zionists (and don't forget the Anarchist Zionists or the Fascistic Revisionist Zionists either) starting causing trouble in a monarchist Arab lead state and won't butterfly the problems caused by irate Palestinians refusing to make room.

 

[BrokenWings]

I have to say that Patagonia/Tierra del Fuego would have made for a much larger Jewish homeland with far more arable land and natural resources than the land of Israel. And with a lot smaller population to displace and compensate and one which likely WOULD accept compensation.

Yeah, that is true.

But Israel has never offered the Palestinian refugees full compensation. Hence why the right to return is one of the basis of the peace talks? So even then, I doubt had Israel been created in Latin America they would've offered the Hispanic population compensation.

 

[BrokenWings]

The problem here is that choosing the Holy Land made Zionism, which was otherwise quite an alienating and pretentious ideology, palatable to normal Jews. Once you subtract the quasi-Messianic of returning to Jerusalem all you have is something attractive to hardcore intellectual Zionist Jews - who before the Holocaust were anything but a majority of Jews. Picking Isreal also meant that Jews who didn't even know what Zionism was would still head towards Israel if they felt they needed to (see Israel's community of Ethiopian Jews who tracked there on foot in direct intimation of Exodus). It's possible that such a project would end up as nothing more than a British equivalent of the Jewish Autonomous Oblast. Without the anti-semitic backlash created by the Mandates imposition on Arabs and the subspent wars and uprisings - most Mizrahim will probably remain in their lands of birth, making this other hypetheotical alternate Jewish homeland largely a place for Ashkenazi idealists to toil on the soil before throwing their hands up in the air and abandoning the place, just as the Jews of the Autonomous Oblast did.

However - if the British do put their stamp of approval on some randomly selected semi-deserted territory - then the butterflies may mean there is no Mandate of Palestine, and therefore the Hashemites (or even the Ottomans) will probably end up allowing Jewish settlement in the Holy Land on there own terms (see the Faisal–Weizmann Agreement). This may seem (and probably is) infinitely preferable from the wider Arab point of view but will probably result in tension when the Labour Zionists (and don't forget the Anarchist Zionists or the Fascistic Revisionist Zionists either) starting causing trouble in a monarchist Arab lead state and won't butterfly the problems caused by irate Palestinians refusing to make room.

But you have to consider that it was HOME. A place where they could be free of anti-semitism. These were people who were dragged by the hair by Anti-Semitic Europe, I really don't think that they would've nitpicked anything that could save them another genocide. The Oblast was Russian-Made, European Jews mostly fled from Hitler in central Europe, and later Stalin in Russia.

However, I really doubt the Hashemites or the Ottomans would ever allow something as idiotic as allowing complete strangers who may have lived on that land 2000 years ago to come back. Such a bold and baseless claim only worked because of British guilt towards the Jews whom were mistreated in Judeo-Christian Europe. You also need to understand that Palestine wasn't deserted, it was populated, had it's own culture, history, and tradition. Such a backlash is only natural, it would've happened had Israel been established in ANY nation, regardless of what it was.

In retrospect, the only reason Israel ever succeeded was because of Hitler. Plenty of Jews wouldn't have migrated had the Holocaust not occurred, so would you honestly believe that all those people would just up and leave had there not been something to encourage them to leave in the first place? Palestinians and Jews have lived on that land for thousands of years, yet the only instance of a wide-spread mass immigration was directly caused by genocide. No instance of any Jewish settlement has happened in the past, I see no reason as to how it would happen in the future had the cause been eliminated.

 

[Maponus]

But you have to consider that it was HOME. A place where they could be free of anti-semitism. These were people who were dragged by the hair by Anti-Semitic Europe, I really don't think that they would've nitpicked anything that could save them another genocide. The Oblast was Russian-Made, European Jews mostly fled from Hitler in central Europe, and later Stalin in Russia.

I don't really see what your saying here other than restating the common knowledge.

However, I really doubt the Hashemites or the Ottomans would ever allow something as idiotic as allowing complete strangers who may have lived on that land 2000 years ago to come back.

I put "See the Faisal–Weizmann Agreement" in my post for a reason: the Hashemites were planning exactly this, partly because the Hashemites didn't consider the Palestinians to be "proper Arabs" at all and thus didn't care about the problems they'd have with Jewish settlers. It was the Entente's secret plans for "internationalising" Palestine (i.e. ensuring it would not be ruled by the Arab ruling class who felt entitled to it) that threw the spanner in the works as regards this agreement. You'd also do well to read the Ottoman response to the Beflour Declaration, which was for the Grand Vizer to promise to fulfil "all justifiable wishes of the Jews in Palestine". Germany, too, started to compete for the affections of the Zionist movement - even drawing up some hair-brained scheme for a Jewish state in Eastern Europe (though they may be only indirectly related to the Beflour declaration or even predate it).

Such a bold and baseless claim only worked because of British guilt towards the Jews whom were mistreated in Judeo-Christian Europe. You also need to understand that Palestine wasn't deserted, it was populated, had it's own culture, history, and tradition. Such a backlash is only natural, it would've happened had Israel been established in ANY nation, regardless of what it was.

It may seem bold and baseless to us modern fellows with our new fangled, Wilsonian ideas about freedom and self-determination of peoples - but both the Muslim ruling class and the British ruling class had been raised on a diet of religious scripture - to people who are raised in a way that makes them think of the Bible or the Quran as not only as moral guides but a reliable historical sources the idea that the Jews should live in the promised land is fairly natural - in fact it's was so natural that open anti-Semites often agreed with it.

I would also be critical of ascribing to the British Imperialists the emotion of guilt - I'd say it was the usual mix of zeal and greed that led them to get involved everywhere else in the world.

In retrospect, the only reason Israel ever succeeded was because of Hitler. Plenty of Jews wouldn't have migrated had the Holocaust not occurred, so would you honestly believe that all those people would just up and leave had there not been something to encourage them to leave in the first place? Palestinians and Jews have lived on that land for thousands of years, yet the only instance of a wide-spread mass immigration was directly caused by genocide. No instance of any Jewish settlement has happened in the past, I see no reason as to how it would happen in the future had the cause been eliminated.

I don't know what your arguing against here. You just seem to be spouting off your position on the Israel-Palestine issue with little direct reference to my original post. I've not even implied that there'd be no Hitler or no Holocaust with this PoD. What I'm saying in my original post is, in response to your OP that asks what would happen if their was a Jewish homeland elsewhere, is that it wouldn't succeed in attracting much attention and would be largely abandoned after a decade or so.

 

[black angel]

In retrospect, the only reason Israel ever succeeded was because of Hitler. Plenty of Jews wouldn't have migrated had the Holocaust not occurred, so would you honestly believe that all those people would just up and leave had there not been something to encourage them to leave in the first place? Palestinians and Jews have lived on that land for thousands of years, yet the only instance of a wide-spread mass immigration was directly caused by genocide. No instance of any Jewish settlement has happened in the past, I see no reason as to how it would happen in the future had the cause been eliminated.

WRONG

most Jews who founded the State of Israel came over (or were born there) before 1936 when the UK shut down Jewish Immigration, also much of the early state's immigration was from Arab States, Israel is even today a majority of Jews are Mizrahi/Sephardi, and 20% of the 47% of Ashkenazi Jews are Russians who didn't start coming to Israel in large numbers till the 1970s (largest groups in the 1990s and early 2000s)

 

[BrokenWings]

I don't really see what your saying here other than restating the common knowledge.

I'm attempting to state that the Oblast is a useless example because there wasn't the motivation of fleeing from a persecutor for the Jewish people. A Autonomous area in Russia cannot be compared to the establishment of an actual state. The reason Israel succeeded as a state with a Jewish majority was because of the increase of refugees from Europe. The Oblast failed because the motivator (Hitler and the anti-semites) didn't exist and there was absolutely no reason for it.

I put "See the Faisal–Weizmann Agreement" in my post for a reason: the Hashemites were planning exactly this, partly because the Hashemites didn't consider the Palestinians to be "proper Arabs" at all and thus didn't care about the problems they'd have with Jewish settlers. It was the Entente's secret plans for "internationalising" Palestine (i.e. ensuring it would not be ruled by the Arab ruling class who felt entitled to it) that threw the spanner in the works as regards this agreement. You'd also do well to read the Ottoman response to the Beflour Declaration, which was for the Grand Vizer to promise to fulfil "all justifiable wishes of the Jews in Palestine". Germany, too, started to compete for the affections of the Zionist movement - even drawing up some hair-brained scheme for a Jewish state in Eastern Europe (though they may be only indirectly related to the Beflour declaration or even predate it).

The Faisal-Weizmann plan only existed due to direct pressure from T.E Lawerence, who argued that the Jews will bring European farming techniques and new technologies to the Arab Palestinians. It had nothing to do with what the Hashemites considered. If anything, the Hashemites have been the most supportive of the Palestinian cause and Prince Faisal even wrote a letter on behalf of the Arab people re-affirming the Palestinian's right to that land and refuting the mass-immigration. Then Lawerence came in. Also, had your argument been correct, don't you think that the reaction of the establishment of the state of Israel would've been different on the Hashemite's part?

It may seem bold and baseless to us modern fellows with our new fangled, Wilsonian ideas about freedom and self-determination of peoples - but both the Muslim ruling class and the British ruling class had been raised on a diet of religious scripture - to people who are raised in a way that makes them think of the Bible or the Quran as not only as moral guides but a reliable historical sources the idea that the Jews should live in the promised land is fairly natural - in fact it's was so natural that open anti-Semites often agreed with it.

You're ignoring history for theory. Had the MUSLIM Arabs actually believed that Israel should exist the reaction would've been one of welcome and warmth. Not the massive war. Also, there's a difference between 'living in the land' and establishing a state and kicking people out of the land. The reason the Hashemites and the Arabs invaded and denounced Israel was due to the displacement of the Palestinians. It had nothing to do with religion whatsoever, so I really REALLY doubt that the Hashemites would've ever allowed such Jewish settlements. Either way, In Pillars of Wisdom Lawerence stated that Faisal was a fool, and only planned to continue with the Zionism thing for a short period of time until the mandate ends.

I would also be critical of ascribing to the British Imperialists the emotion of guilt - I'd say it was the usual mix of zeal and greed that led them to get involved everywhere else in the world.

Well, that is true, guilt would be near the end of the first World War, I really doubt it that it was because of Greed. Perhaps it was to appeal to the U.S to enter the war? Or because Balfour was a Zionist himself? Either way, Orientalism, Triumphalism, and European guilt were the main motivators for the Zionist supporters.

I don't know what your arguing against here. You just seem to be spouting off your position on the Israel-Palestine issue with little direct reference to my original post. I've not even implied that there'd be no Hitler or no Holocaust with this PoD. What I'm saying in my original post is, in response to your OP that asks what would happen if their was a Jewish homeland elsewhere, is that it wouldn't succeed in attracting much attention and would be largely abandoned after a decade or so.

Excuse me? I haven't spouted any political position. I merely stated that the REASON Israel succeeded was because of massive Jewish immigration, a point which I WAS trying to create was how would a Jewish state succeed on the other edge of the world outside of European reach? And how it would've faired with the Arab population. This was to counter-act your point of view that it would've been merely a religious motivation. They would've settled, but would it have been successful? And if not, for what REASONS. I used Hitler and the Nazi Regime's disappearance as an example to explain that the state IRL would probably have fallen to bits had the Jews from Europe not immigrated.

 

[BrokenWings]

WRONG

most Jews who founded the State of Israel came over (or were born there) before 1936 when the UK shut down Jewish Immigration, also much of the early state's immigration was from Arab States, Israel is even today a majority of Jews are Mizrahi/Sephardi, and 20% of the 47% of Ashkenazi Jews are Russians who didn't start coming to Israel in large numbers till the 1970s (largest groups in the 1990s and early 2000s)

The Jews made up in 1850 4% of the total population. By 1947 they only made up 30%. Most Jews who fled the arab nations fled to America and Europe, and only 10% went to the state of Israel. The Holy Land has never been at one point in history for 2000 years a Jewish majority.

Now, consider it, if it was in 1914 the Jewish population was 94 thousand, and in 47 it jumped to 360 thousand, then where did those 270 thousand Jews come from? Really, read the Israeli National Census.

The Jews who founded Israel were atheist Europeans who were Capitalists and only represented a small faction of the Jewish people. Most Jews were socialist communist.

 

[black angel]

The Jews made up in 1850 4% of the total population. By 1947 they only made up 30%. Most Jews who fled the arab nations fled to America and Europe, and only 10% went to the state of Israel. The Holy Land has never been at one point in history for 2000 years a Jewish majority.

Now, consider it, if it was in 1914 the Jewish population was 94 thousand, and in 47 it jumped to 360 thousand, then where did those 270 thousand Jews come from? Really, read the Israeli National Census.

The Jews who founded Israel were atheist Europeans who were Capitalists and only represented a small faction of the Jewish people. Most Jews were socialist communist.

ok and what does this have to do with Hitler? only a tiny tiny number of those Jews were Germany, most were Polish, or from Russia's Western areas, almost all came before Hitler was marching over Europe, a lot before he was even elected, what made Israel a Jewish majority state able to hold against Arabs wasn't a flood of post 1948 European Jews, it was a flood of post 1948 Arab Jews, which has nothing at all to do with Nazism

 

[BrokenWings]

ok and what does this have to do with Hitler? only a tiny tiny number of those Jews were Germany, most were Polish, or from Russia's Western areas, almost all came before Hitler was marching over Europe, a lot before he was even elected, what made Israel a Jewish majority state able to hold against Arabs wasn't a flood of post 1948 European Jews, it was a flood of post 1948 Arab Jews, which has nothing at all to do with Nazism

Have you even READ my argument? Most Jews who migrated were Central European, the massive Russian migration began around the time Stalin died in the 50's.

I will repeat, 10% of the Arab Jews went to Israel. Period.

My previous argument was that Hitler's anti-semitism encouraged Central European Jewish migration to Palestine and made the State of Israel possible. That's all there is to it.

Also, the Jews only held their own because the British and Americans supplied them graciously, and the Brits lowered all military supplies to the Arabs after the Palestinian revolt in the 30's.

Seriously, when you make an argument, either stick with it, or give it up, don't constantly edit it to suit certain facts. It's an obscurantist tactic.

 

[black angel]

Have you even READ my argument? Most Jews who migrated were Central European, the massive Russian migration began around the time Stalin died in the 50's.

I will repeat, 10% of the Arab Jews went to Israel. Period.

My previous argument was that Hitler's anti-semitism encouraged Central European Jewish migration to Palestine and made the State of Israel possible. That's all there is to it.

Also, the Jews only held their own because the British and Americans supplied them graciously, and the Brits lowered all military supplies to the Arabs after the Palestinian revolt in the 30's.

Seriously, when you make an argument, either stick with it, or give it up, don't constantly edit it to suit certain facts. It's an obscurantist tactic.

from 1948 to the six day war only 22,000 Soviet Jews came to Israel, In the years 1960–1970, the USSR let only 4,000 people leave, they only started to be let out in the 1970s

it really doesn't matter if Arab Jews in a majority came to Israel, they still (to this day) out number European Jews, they were the main life blood of the early state

we can bitch and fight about how much one side or the other the British were till the end of time

that last part is just silly, I haven't edited anything nor have I changed what I'm saying, Israel has nothing to do with Hitler, thats a popular myth on both sides for political reasons Israel would have happened with or with out the holocaust (well as far as we can tell) Zionism vastly per-dates WWII and was popular before WWII, the idea of boat fills of Holocaust survivor Jews showing up in 1948 and being handed the land by the UN is rubbish.

 

[BrokenWings]

from 1948 to the six day war only 22,000 Soviet Jews came to Israel, In the years 1960–1970, the USSR let only 4,000 people leave, they only started to be let out in the 1970s

it really doesn't matter if Arab Jews in a majority came to Israel, they still (to this day) out number European Jews, they were the main life blood of the early state

we can bitch and fight about how much one side or the other the British were till the end of time

that last part is just silly, I haven't edited anything nor have I changed what I'm saying, Israel has nothing to do with Hitler, thats a popular myth on both sides for political reasons Israel would have happened with or with out the holocaust (well as far as we can tell) Zionism vastly per-dates WWII and was popular before WWII, the idea of boat fills of Holocaust survivor Jews showing up in 1948 and being handed the land by the UN is rubbish.

Rubbish? Oh dear lord. Israel began as a massive migration plan of European Jews to Palestine as part of the ZIONISM movement. Most of the European Jews didn't WANT to leave, but they had to to escape anti-semitic Europe. You have not argued with the statistics I presented.

How the hell could 98k increase to 360k in a matter of 30 years? I mean, that's NOT feasibly possible.

http://www.cjpmo.org/DisplayDocument.aspx?DocumentID=18

There are plenty of other links that can verify my claim.

Seriously, this is just idiotic. Arab Jews made up less than 10% of the population. Again, IF you're going to argue, present proper facts.

 

[black angel]

Rubbish? Oh dear lord. Israel began as a massive migration plan of European Jews to Palestine as part of the ZIONISM movement. Most of the European Jews didn't WANT to leave, but they had to to escape anti-semitic Europe. You have not argued with the statistics I presented.

How the hell could 98k increase to 360k in a matter of 30 years? I mean, that's NOT feasibly possible.

http://www.cjpmo.org/DisplayDocument.aspx?DocumentID=18

There are plenty of other links that can verify my claim.

Seriously, this is just idiotic. Arab Jews made up less that 10% of the population. Again, IF you're going to argue, present proper facts.

ok and what does that have to do with Nazism or Hitler? Poland, and Russia were anti-semitic and ended up sending far more Jews then Germany, one could make the case for anti-Semitism being a founding factor in Zionism but anti-Semitism=/=Nazism and Hitler, you said no Hitler and no WWII no Israel, I say bullshit, Jews were flooding into Palestine before Hitler was elected almost all came before 1933

any ways 10% at what point? what I've been saying is European Immigration post 1948 was pretty low next to Arab Jewish

 

[BrokenWings]

ok and what does that have to do with Nazism or Hitler? Poland, and Russia were anti-semitic and ended up sending far more Jews then Germany, one could make the case for anti-Semitism being a founding factor in Zionism but anti-Semitism=/=Nazism and Hitler, you said no Hitler and no WWII no Israel, I say bullshit, Jews were flooding into Palestine before Hitler was elected almost all came before 1933

any ways 10% at what point? what I've been saying is European Immigration post 1948 was pretty low next to Arab Jewish

Oh dear lord.

Hitler's Anti-Semitism ENCOURAGED Jewish migration to Palestine. Are you really trying to argue that Stalin's reign specifically targeted Jews? I mean, really.

You have it wrong, ZIONISTS were flooding Palestine. If you had bothered to look at the resources I gave you, you would've realised that:

A. Before WWII the Jewish migrations were relatively low.
B. Arab Jewish migration to Palestine before 48 was almost unheard of.

Again, I presented facts, I sincerely hope you present some as well.

 

[black angel]

Oh dear lord.

Hitler's Anti-Semitism ENCOURAGED Jewish migration to Palestine. Are you really trying to argue that Stalin's reign specifically targeted Jews? I mean, really.

You have it wrong, ZIONISTS were flooding Palestine. If you had bothered to look at the resources I gave you, you would've realised that:

A. Before WWII the Jewish migrations were relatively low.
B. Arab Jewish migration to Palestine before 48 was almost unheard of.

Again, I presented facts, I sincerely hope you present some as well.

*sigh* how? you think just Hitler sent mind waves over the Polish border from 1881 till 1936 forcing Polish Jews to leave?


First Aliyah (1882–1903) 35,000 Jews
Second Aliyah (1904–1914) 40,000 Jews
Third Aliyah (1919–1923) 40,000 Jews
Fourth Aliyah (1924–1929) 82,000 Jews
Fifth Aliyah (1929–1939) 250,000 Jews

now almost ALL of them are from Eastern Europe, by 1914, Jewish self-defense organizations were formed, Hebrew was being brought back, Tel Aviv was growing up, by 1940 450,000 Jews lived in Palestine, are you saying ALL that was from Hitler? there were 660,920 Jews in Israel in 1948, now taking into account all the babies born over 8 years, 200,000 Jews from the War and Post-War?

 

[BrokenWings]

*sigh* how? you think just Hitler sent mind waves over the Polish border from 1881 till 1936 forcing Polish Jews to leave?


First Aliyah (1882–1903) 35,000 Jews
Second Aliyah (1904–1914) 40,000 Jews
Third Aliyah (1919–1923) 40,000 Jews
Fourth Aliyah (1924–1929) 82,000 Jews
Fifth Aliyah (1929–1939) 250,000 Jews

now almost ALL of them are from Eastern Europe, by 1914, Jewish self-defense organizations were formed, Hebrew was being brought back, Tel Aviv was growing up, by 1940 450,000 Jews lived in Palestine, are you saying ALL that was from Hitler? there were 660,920 Jews in Israel in 1948, now taking into account all the babies born over 8 years, 200,000 Jews from the War and Post-War?

Funny how 174 thousand from the Fifth Aliyah arrived after 33, you know, when Hitler was elected? What do Jewish Self-Defense groups have to do with anything? Seriously, what the hell are you trying to prove?

You'll notice that it's the majority. And Also, I'm talking about the Jews who migrated AFTER Israel was created. Seriously. I'm saying that the MAJORITY were from Central Europe, Jews who were fleeing Nazism.

Let me get this straight, your obscurantist facts, demeans my link which provides British, Ottoman, and American censuses?

http://www.cjpmo.org/DisplayDocument.aspx?DocumentID=18

94k BEFORE

360k AFTER.

This is a 30 year span.

Thus, you can tell two things:

A. They're not Jewish Arabs.
B. They're from Germany.

Again, check my links. Please, present actual proof. So far, you are attempting to broaden the subject by brining in the Aliyah.

P.S:

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005468

Also, you miscalculated about one thing; Jews escaping Nazi Occupied Europe and the Soviet Union.

It's funny how the Jewish migrations began increasing drastically after Hitler rose to power. But you're right of course, why should my sources and facts hamper your argument.

 

[black angel]

Funny how 174 thousand from the Fifth Aliyah arrived after 33, you know, when Hitler was elected? What do Jewish Self-Defense groups have to do with anything? Seriously, what the hell are you trying to prove?

You'll notice that it's the majority. And Also, I'm talking about the Jews who migrated AFTER Israel was created. Seriously. I'm saying that the MAJORITY were from Central Europe, Jews who were fleeing Nazism.

Let me get this straight, your obscurantist facts, demeans my link which provides British, Ottoman, and American censuses?

http://www.cjpmo.org/DisplayDocument.aspx?DocumentID=18

94k BEFORE

360k AFTER.

This is a 30 year span.

Thus, you can tell two things:

A. They're not Jewish Arabs.
B. They're from Germany.

Again, check my links. Please, present actual proof. So far, you are attempting to broaden the subject by brining in the Aliyah.

now you're just speaking gibberish how can some one flee Nazism after Israel was founded? it was found in 1948, 3 years after WWII ended, no more Nazism to flee from

also you keep saying 98K to 360K looked at your link saw nothing related to those numbers

lastly are you saying.... that the majority of Israelis were German Jewish

 

[black angel]

P.S:

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005468

Also, you miscalculated about one thing; Jews escaping Nazi Occupied Europe and the Soviet Union.

It's funny how the Jewish migrations began increasing drastically after Hitler rose to power. But you're right of course, why should my sources and facts hamper your argument.

its like you don't read what you post that clearly states only 60,000 Germans ended up in Palestine

 

[BrokenWings]

now you're just speaking gibberish how can some one flee Nazism after Israel was founded? it was found in 1948, 3 years after WWII ended, no more Nazism to flee from

also you keep saying 98K to 360K looked at your link saw nothing related to those numbers

lastly are you saying.... that the majority of Israelis were German Jewish

Oh dear lord. Oh dear lord. Just..

Jews were AFRAID of a Nazi like regime returning. Jesus

Excuse me, but I don't know if you've noticed, but I said the Jews were mostly 'CENTRAL EUROPEAN'

Germany is not just central Europe, you know that don't you?

Also, my article says 60,000. EXACTLY. That proves my point. 60,000 from Germany ALONE is grander than the Aliyas combined (With the exception of the 5th one which basically was European Jews escaping the growing Nazi Regime.

Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Austria, Switzerland etc.. all those places had Jews exiled. Seriously. Please, just. Your ignorance is beyond the scope of human comprehension.