A lot of early christian anglo saxon kings seem to have entered the church towards the end of their lives, giving up the kingship, but i'm not sure about dedicating their sons to the church as infants/children...
Twelve Children of Camelot: Prince Arthur has twelve children with Catherine of Aragon, whom do they marry?
- Thread starter The Gybson Boy
- Start date
Not their sons - their daughters. See Bridget of York as example. Or the daughters of Louis XV (although French and later on)
There's also Mary, daughter of Edward I, who also became a nun. But even for daughters it seems fairly unusual; for sons to enter the church would be unheard of in England as far as I know. As much as (they claimed to) dislike him, the English king generally did the same thing the French king did (when the French king started curing for the king's evil, the English king started curing the king's evil; when Philip VI styled his heir Duke of Normandy, Edward III called his heir Duke of Cornwall a few years later, that sort of thing).
And so far as I know, the French king stopped sending his sons to the church after how disastrously it went for Louis VII. So, if I had to guess, there's probably a level of conscious one-up-man-ship here at play as well. The English king considers himself an 'equal' with the King of France and so does the same things the French king does. Maybe if King Francis or Henry II sends a son to the church Arthur would consider it. I don't think Spanish blood through Catherine will change this much, if that's the case.
It seems like grandsons could enter the church no problem though, as seen by Cardinal Henry Beaufort (though with Beauforts it's always hard to tell what's the exception and what's the rule, lol).
I mean, you can probably count the Cardinal pretender too
King Henry VII died in 1509 and was succeeded by his eldest son, now King Arthur I of England. Prince Arthur married a Spanish princess, Catherine of Aragon, November 1501. A few months later, in the spring of 1502, he nearly succumbed to sweating sickness in the midst of an epidemic, at Ludlow Castle.
King Arthur I and his wife Catherine truly loved each other, during their marriage they had twelve children, all of whom miraculously survived into adulthood, something that was seen by many as the work of God.
King Arthur I of England (1486-) and Catherine of Aragon (1485-)
1.Princess Elizabeth (December 1503) (Named after Elizabeth of York, mother of Arthur)
2.Alfred, Prince of Wales¹ (December 1504) (Named after Alfred the Great, the first monarch of unified England)
3.Princess Mary (March 1506) (Named after Maria of Aragon, Queen of Portugal)
4.Henry, Duke of Somerset (June 1508) (Named after Henry VII and Henry, Duke of York)
5.Princess Katherine (July 1509) (Named after Catherine of Aragon)
6.Princess Margaret (July 1509) (Named after Margaret Beaufort, grandmother of Arthur)
7.Princess Cecily (September 1510)(Named after Cecily of York, Aunt of Arthur)
8.Edmund, Duke of Lancaster (January 1512) (Named after Edmund Tudor, paternal grandfather of Arthur and Edmund, Duke of Somerset the younger brother of Arthur)
9.Arthur, Duke of Richmond (May 1513) (Named after of Arthur himself)
10.Princess Joan (November1515) (Named after Queen Juana of Castile, Catherine's older sister)
11.John, Duke of Cambridge (February 1517) (Named after John of Gaunt, common relative of Catherine of Aragon and Arhut as well as Juan, Prince of Asturias)
12.Edward, Duke of Bedford (May 1518) (named after King Edward IV, grandfather of Arthur)
(1-I know arthur's eldest son would probably be named Henry, but let's say Arthur decided to honor Alfred the great here)
Who would all these kids marry?
First of all, 12 children likely results in several being placed in the Church. Making a Prince a Duke isn't so easy as writing up the Letters Patent - you need lands and incomes to support them on that level. Henry VII was notoriously frugal and one might hope Arthur would inherit some good financial sense from him.
I think we'd see a son named Henry before we got an Alfred, and maybe even a Ferdinand and/or a Philip and/or a Charles, in honour of Catherine's relatives of those names.
1. The Prince of Wales would be a good match for his cousin, Eleanor of Austria (b.1498), daughter of Philip of Burgundy and Juana la Loca. Eleanor stood to inherit the massive Hapsburg empire after her brothers Charles and Ferdinand, and was for that reason denied to the King of Denmark - but she was aso, OTL, betrothed to Henry VIII. In 1518, the Prince of Wales would be 14 and the Archduchess-Infanta 20. There are, of course, also her sisters Isabella (b.1501) and Maria (b.1505), dynastically less valuable but better suited in age and just as good in terms of securing England as a fixture in the Hapsburg orbit.
2. Such a match would probably be part of a double marriage alliance, with the future Charles V (b.1500) pledged to the Princess Elizabeth (b.1503). Her name, Elizabeth/Isabella, honours both grandmothers. Arthur would have every reason to want his daughter as Holy Roman Empress and with such a successful reproductive career, Queen Catherine would no doubt have a far greater say at the English court.
3. The Princess Mary (b.1506) would probably be named Margaret, IMHO, for the grandmother Henry VIII adored and who gave the first Tudor his claim to the throne. And, of course, for the Virgin, and her aunt the Queen of Portugal. In the cradle she could be betrothed to her first cousin, James Stewart, Duke of Rothesay, but he died young. Without obvious matches to be made in France, Spain, or Scotland, one would need to look further afield. The death of her aunt would leave Manuel I of Portugal unmarried in 1517, at which time Mary would be on the cusp of marriageability. Manuel might likely prefer to remarry in Castile, however, leaving his son and heir, the future João III (b.1502) available. Like John of Gaunt, Arthur would show himself a true son of Lancaster, with Queens of Castile and Portugal for daughters. Other foreign alternatives would be King Henry II of Navarre (b.1503), Duke Charles III of Savoy, who OTL only married in 1521, and Duke Maximilian Sforza of Milan, during the brief window he ruled in Milan (1512-1515). A possible native match would exist in her great-uncle-in-law Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk, after the death of his first wife Princess Anne of York in 1511.
4. The Prince Henry (b.1508), Duke of Somerset, would most likely be called Edward IMHO, with the name Henry being used for the elder son. I can see some scheming and plotting to try and match him to Renée de Valois (b.1510), would-be heiress to an independent or autonomous Brittany, but I doubt François Ier would let it happen. Maybe François would offer one of his own daughters, once he inherited the French throne and started having them, but I imagine François preferring to match a daughter with Charles V (if at all possible) or, down the line, to a King of Scots. I can see this Prince eventually being matched to Lady Mary Stafford, youngest daughter of the mighty Duke of Buckingham, or Elizabeth Grey (b.1505), Viscountess Lisle, an heiress in her own right. Another potential betrothal would be Elizabeth de la Pole, only daughter and would-be heiress of Edmund de la Pole, "the White Rose", Duke-cum-Earl of Suffolk.
5. The Princess Katherine (b.1509) would make a sound match for Henry Stafford (b.1501), heir to the Dukedom of Buckingham, or Henry Pole (b.c.1492 - yes, more than a bit old for her), Viscount Montagu and heir to the Earldom of Salisbury, whose mother was one of Queen Catherine's great friends, with whom she shared the hope of seeing their children intermarry. A foreign match might present itself in Joachim II Hector, Elector of Brandenburg, nephew of King Christian of Denmark and vassal of her brother-in-law, Charles V. Brandenburg might welcome the chance to have as Electress the sister of the Empress. The same would go for the future Elector John Frederick I of Saxony (b.1503).
6. The Princess Margaret (b.1509), perhaps the younger twin would get the Elector or White Rose heir the elder spurned.
7. The Princess Cecily (b.1510), a good child to place in the church. She could marry the sonless Earl of Essex, Henry Bourchier, when he got widowed for the first time in 1535 - but most likely her fate would have been decided before then. Alessandro de' Medici (b.1510), Duke of Florence from 1530 until his death in 1537.
8. The Prince Edmund (b.1512), Duke of Lancaster, would probably not carry that loaded, familial title IMHO - Duke of Clarence seems more likely. A potential marriage for him would be with Anne Bourchier (b.1517), only daughter and heiress of the Earl of Essex. Potential marriages for the eldest daughter of France might be a thing, if Claude is worrying about securing a son-in-law who could make good the claim to Brittany. There is also Sybilla of Cleves (b.1512), daughter of Duke John of Cleves and Duchess Maria of Julich. Barring an heiress, he would be a good child to place in the church.
9. The Prince Arthur (b.1513), Duke of Richmond, would probably not carry that novel title, but something more classical like Duke of Exeter, Bedford, Hereford or Surrey. Assuming there was enough money or land for him. A foreign match might be possible with Isabella Jagiellonika (b.1519), daughter of Bona Sforza, suo jure Duchess of Bari and Rossano in her own right, especially if Bona made over her Italian lands to her daughter. In addition to the church, there's a respectable/profitable life as Hapsburg satellites awaiting Catherine's many unnecessary children.
10. Princess Joanna (b.1515), a good candidate for a future Dauphin of France, King James V of Scots (b.1516), Prince Hans of Denmark (b.1518) or else the Church.
11. Prince John (b.1517), I don't think would carry the title 'Duke of Cambridge'. Put him in the church.
12. Prince Edward (b.1518), I don't think the name Edward would come last like this, put him in the Church. If worst comes to worst, there's always Catherine de' Medicis (b.1519), nominal suo jure Duchess of Urbino.
Here's my go at the Tudor Family tree in the world where Arthur and Catherine have 12 children. I'd love any feedback ya'll have, especially for the Italian marriages, I'm not as familiar with Italy in this period.
Arthur I Tudor, King of England, b. 1586 m. Catalina Trastamara, Infanta of Aragon, b. 1485
Margaret Tudor, Lady of England, b. 1489 m. a) James IV Stewart, King of Scotland, b. 1473; b) Archibald Douglas, Earl of Angus, b. 1489; c) Henry Stewart, Lord Methven, b. 1495
Henry Tudor, Duke of York, b. 1491 m. a) Marguerite of Angouleme, b. 1492, d. 1508; b) Elizabeth de la Pole, b. 1498
Mary Tudor, Lady of England, b. 1496, m. Louis XII Valois, King of France, b. 1496, d. 1515, no issue; Maximillian Sforza, Duke of Milan, b. 1493
Arthur I Tudor, King of England, b. 1586 m. Catalina Trastamara, Infanta of Aragon, b. 1485
1) Elizabeth Tudor, Princess of England, 1503, b. Charles V Habsburg, Holy Roman Emperor, b. 1500
2) Alfred, Prince of Wales, 1504 m. Isabella Aviz, Infanta of Portugal, b. 1503
3) Mary Tudor, Princess of England, b. 1506, m. João III Aviz, King of Portugal, b. 1502
4) Henry Tudor, Duke of Somerset, b. 1508 m. Anne Stewart, b. 1510 [1]
5) Katherine Tudor, Princess of England, b. 1509, m. James V Stewart, King of Scotland, b. 1512
6) Margaret Tudor, Princess of England, b. 1509, b. John Frederick I von Wettin, Elector of Saxony, b. 1503
7) Cecily Tudor, Princess of England, b. 1510, became a nun
8) Edmund Tudor, Duke of Hereford, b. 1512 m. Katherine Willoughby, Baroness Willoughby de Eresby, b. 1519
9) Arthur, Duke of Richmond, b. 1513 m. Anne Bourchier, Baroness Bourchier, b. 1517
10) Joan Tudor, Princess of England, b. 1515, b. Francis III Valois, Dauphin of France, b. 1518
11) John, Duke of Cambridge, b. 1517 m. Margaret Douglas, b. 1515
12) Edward Tudor, Duke of Bedford, b. 1518, m. Maud Percy, b. 1525 [2]
[1] Daughter of John Stewart, Duke of Albany and Anne de La Tour d’Auvergne. Catherine de Medici is never born so Anne inherits Auvergne and some of her fathers lands as well.
[2] Henry Percy and Mary Talbot manage one daughter before the relationship completely deteriorates, heiress to the Northumberland estates
Margaret Tudor, Lady of England, b. 1489 m. a) James IV Stewart, King of Scotland, b. 1473; b) Archibald Douglas, Earl of Angus, b. 1489; c) Henry Stewart, Lord Methven, b. 1495
a1) James Stewart, Duke of Rothesay, b. 1507, b. 1508
a2) Arthur Stewart, Duke of Rothesay, b. 1509, d. 1510
a3) James V Stewart, King of Scotland, b. 1513 m. Katherine Tudor, Princess of England, b. 1509
a4) Alexander Stewart, Duke of Ross, b. 1514, d. 1515
b5) Margaret Douglas, b. 1515, m. John, Duke of Cambridge, b. 1517
Henry Tudor, Duke of York, b. 1491 m. a) Marguerite of Angouleme, b. 1492, d. 1508; b) Elizabeth de la Pole, b. 1498
1a) Henry Tudor, Duke of York, b. 1506, m. Elizabeth Grey, Viscountess Lisle, b. 1505
2a) Arthur Tudor, Earl of Leicester b. 1507, m. Anne Boleyn, b. 1507
3b) Charles Tudor, Earl of Suffolk, b. 1517 m. Elizabeth Brooke, b. 1526
4b) Louise Tudor, b. 1519, m. Thomas Grey, Marquess of Dorset, b. 1517
5b) Isabel Tudor, b. 1521, m. Henry Clifford, Earl of Cumberland, b. 1517
6b) John Tudor, b. 1525, m. Catherine Howard, b. 1524
Mary Tudor, Lady of England, b. 1496, m. Louis XII Valois, King of France, b. 1496, d. 1515, no issue; Maximillian Sforza, Duke of Milan, b. 1493
1) Eleonora Sforza, b. 1518 m. Ercole II d’Este, Duke of Ferrara, b. 1508
2) Francesco Sforza, Duke of Milan, b. 1520 m. Caterina de Savoy, b. 1529
3) Enrico Sforza, b. 1528, m. Anna Gonzaga, b. 1531
Well, Henry of Trastamara married the Infanta Juana Manuel of Castile, his grandson Henry III married Catherine of Lancaster, John of Avis married Philippa of Lancaster, Joan Beaufort married King James of Scots, Edmund Tudor married Margaret Beaufort, Henry VII married Elizabeth of York, various royal and even Imperial marriages were considered for Mary and Elizabeth Tudor, and of course, two royal Capetians married lowly Medici brides in return for Papal support and lots of cold, hard cash.
Henry and John were already Kings (and recognized as such) when they married. Henry III of Castile, Joan Beaufort, Edmund Tudor and Henry VII were all legitimate and the Medici girls were both legitimate (and had much better blood on their maternal side than their paternal one. Maria was also daughter and granddaughter of rulers) and Mary and Elizabeth Tudor were born as legitimate and were Queens