Awesome! An earlier Spanish-American war! This could go either way I think. Spain still has some internal issues, but the US is also weaker than it would be in 1898.
The Union Forever: A TL
- Thread starter Mac Gregor
- Start date
You need to seperate the modern state of Oklahoma from the orginal Indian Territory.
Here is a map of the orginal Indian Territory:
http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/fed-indian-policy/images/territory-map-02.jpg
You can see that this is the eastern 1/3 of modern Oklahoma. There was a statehood movement starting in the 1880's and part of the reasoning behind the Dawes act was to bring them inline with regular territories and states. I can see them achieving statehood separate from the rest of modern Oklahoma. You could call the rest of the state Lincoln territory then the State of Lincoln.
JLCKANSAS.
Good timeline
Sorry if I missed this, but what is the fate of West Virginia? Is it a seperate state or since most of Virginia was in federal hands during 1862 and 1863 did just one state emerge being dominated by the unionists after the war?
I would also imagine that the Civil War with on year less money spent and blood spilled would translate into a faster development of the West. The transcon railroad is one year sooner. These butterfly effects might make settlement and admission of future states faster. The demise of the plains, Mountain, and South West Indians happens sooner as well.
How is the treatment of immigrants especially Asian? Is the US any kinder to these hardworkers?
Also, state borders and names might be effected. Lincoln is boun to have more stuff named after him.
Also, is there any further US interest in Baja Cal and Sonora?
Thank you
Sorry if I missed this, but what is the fate of West Virginia? Is it a seperate state or since most of Virginia was in federal hands during 1862 and 1863 did just one state emerge being dominated by the unionists after the war?
I would also imagine that the Civil War with on year less money spent and blood spilled would translate into a faster development of the West. The transcon railroad is one year sooner. These butterfly effects might make settlement and admission of future states faster. The demise of the plains, Mountain, and South West Indians happens sooner as well.
How is the treatment of immigrants especially Asian? Is the US any kinder to these hardworkers?
Also, state borders and names might be effected. Lincoln is boun to have more stuff named after him.
Also, is there any further US interest in Baja Cal and Sonora?
Thank you
Last edited:
Thanks for your support. The answers to your questions are...
1. There is no state of West Virginia in this TL as it remained part of the Commonwealth of Virginia due to the earlier Union victory.
2) Yes, because the Civil War ended in July, 1863 the United States has more men, material, and money so Western Expansion is progressing faster than OTL.
3) Immigrants are being treated roughly the same as in OTL. European developments are probably leading to higher German immigration.
4) As far as changes in the borders of future states I am more than willing to entertain some suggestions.
5) The U.S. is really no more interested in Sonora and Baja than in OTL.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
War with Spain -- yes! Does the US Spanish war cover as much territory as OTL, going into the Philippines, or are we mostly talking about a war in Cuba?
As for future states - the number 50 is a great round number
Political parties and elections also influenced statehood timing
No W VA -> Admit a carribean state, perhaps call it American West Indies and it consists of Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, and Virgin Islands
I would break Idaho, combine NoDak and SoDak, Combine Wyo and Mon
SoDak and NoDak will become the state of Dakota - Capital is Pierre
Utah gets SW corner of Wyo to square it up.
Idaho gets sqaured up by getting western Montanna - Call it Montanna or Idaho or something else
What is left of Eastern Mont and Wyo combine to form the state of Lincoln. Capital can be Cheyenne or Billings.
To get to 50
No W Va - Amerian West Indies (PR, DR, VI)
No NoDak - Make Cuba a State
No Montana or Idaho -US purchases Sonora and Baja Cal to combine and make state of Sonora
Just some sugestions
Political parties and elections also influenced statehood timing
No W VA -> Admit a carribean state, perhaps call it American West Indies and it consists of Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, and Virgin Islands
I would break Idaho, combine NoDak and SoDak, Combine Wyo and Mon
SoDak and NoDak will become the state of Dakota - Capital is Pierre
Utah gets SW corner of Wyo to square it up.
Idaho gets sqaured up by getting western Montanna - Call it Montanna or Idaho or something else
What is left of Eastern Mont and Wyo combine to form the state of Lincoln. Capital can be Cheyenne or Billings.
To get to 50
No W Va - Amerian West Indies (PR, DR, VI)
No NoDak - Make Cuba a State
No Montana or Idaho -US purchases Sonora and Baja Cal to combine and make state of Sonora
Just some sugestions
Not entirely sure yet, what do you think? The U.S. Navy is much weaker in1877 so would it be able to spare the forces to invade the Philippines?
American Military Preparations: September-October, 1877
American Military Preparations
September-October, 1877
September-October, 1877
The United States was woefully unprepared when war erupted with Spain in 1877, both at land and on sea. Nevertheless, the America moved swiftly for its first conflict with a European power since the War of 1812.
The Navy
Nathan Goff Jr.
Secretary of the Navy
At the start of the war with Spain the United States found its navy in a sorry condition. The U.S. Navy numbered a paltry 6,400 sailors. Furthermore the American fleet only possessed 51 operational vessels, most of which dated back to the Civil War, over 14 years ago. This was a far cry from 1863 when America boasted around 400 warships, many of which now in 1877 were either scrapped or mothballed and rusting.
With the sudden outbreak of the war it was up to Nathan Goff Jr., the 34 year old Secretary of the Navy, to bring as many of these mothballed vessels back up to fighting standards as quickly as possible. Although Goff, a Republican politician from the same part of western Virginia as President Boreman, had never served a day at sea his is now remembered as one of the most important figures in U.S. naval history.
The Army
Robert Todd Lincoln
Secretary of War
Over the course of the conflict, Nathan Golf developed a close friendship with the U.S. Secretary of War, former President Abraham Lincoln’s oldest son Robert Todd Lincoln. Robert Lincoln had missed military service due to attending Harvard during the Civil War. After graduating from Harvard Law School, Lincoln followed in the footsteps of his famous father and became a lawyer. After a few years of practicing law in Illinois, Robert Lincoln entered politics and was elected to the U.S. House of Representatives at the age of 29 in 1872. He served as a Republican Congressman until the election of President Boreman in 1876 when he was offered the position of Secretary of War.
Lincoln had barely settled into office when the conflict broke out, and like his friend in the Naval Department, Lincoln scrambled to muster the forces needed to defend the nation. This was not an easy task in late 1877, when the U.S. Army was undermanned, underpaid, and overextended fighting the Indians in the west.
Maj. General William Tecumseh Sherman
Commanding General of the United States Army
Lincoln made a point from the very start of the war to work hand in hand with the Commanding General of the United States Army, 57 year old Major General William Tecumseh Sherman. In conjunction with Secretary Lincoln, Sherman, one of the heroes of Vicksburg and the conqueror of Arkansas and Texas, immediately began shuffling the few Army units on hand to protect the southeastern coastline until naval supremacy could be achieved against the Spanish. Sherman and Lincoln were also able to convince President Boreman to agree that until new forces could be raised (Boreman had at the onset of the war called for 80,000 volunteers) units from the state militias should be called out to protect the east coast.
American War Aims
In early October of 1877, President Boreman held a council of war with General Sherman and Secretaries Goff and Lincoln in the Whitehouse to outline the nation’s goals for the war. First, President Boreman stated that military forces should be built up to defend the American coastline and the Commonwealth of Santo Domino before the military undertook any offensive operations. Secondly, since the war was largely a result of Spain trying to maintain its grip on its New World holdings it was decided that Spain must relinquish control of Cuba and Puerto Rico as a condition for peace. Whether these islands would be annexed by the U.S. or granted their independence was not discussed. Nathan Goff then brought up the Spanish colony of the Philippines. After a brief discussion, a consensus was reached that since all available naval assets were need on the east coast, an expedition to the Philippines would only be launched after the Caribbean had been cleared of Spanish forces.
In short, at the start of the war the military of United States was at one of its lowest points in history. It would be up to America’s military leaders, President Boreman, Secretaries Goff and Lincoln, and Maj. General Sherman to see if the young nation could weather the coming storm.
Last edited:
Yeah I can imagine the US would be very unprepared for a war. Still they do have one thing going for them in that there are a lot of civil war combat veterans still around that could be counted upon to become NCOs and officers (granted in some cases they could be long in the tooth), and having combat veterans mixed in can go a long way to helping a green army remain cohesive.
I agree.
A question for the board is what Civil War era military leaders (Union or Confederate) would readers like to see service in the TL's Spanish American War?
I'd kind of like to see Longstreet back in action. He shouldn't be too old and might be seen favorable to southern states if he would be given some kind of command. Even if it something as innocuous as command of coastal defenses in the south.
John Farson
Banned
Even though the Civil War in TTL has been less destructive than OTL, with its over 300,000 casualties it must have still been seen as destructive from the POV of the people in TTL. Therefore I'm not so sure that the U.S. government would trust any former Confederate commander with command of a body of troops. After all, they once warred against the legal government. Who's to say they won't defect to the Spanish at the first opportunity? Hyperbolic, I agree, but I'm sure that's one argument the biggest Confederate-haters would use.
It's been over a decade since the war and the US ITTL has been big into "reconciliation", ie. not going all Radical Republican on the South. Since arguing that Southern commanders are going to turn their men over to Spain is ludicrous, and the social conditions just outlined, I don't think there will be a big problem with appointing a few Southern commanders in some positions. They might not be particularly important positions, of course, but they will be there.
Opening Engagements October-December, 1877
Opening Engagements
October-December, 1877
October-December, 1877
The first major confrontation of the war, the Battle of El Verraco, took place on October 28, 1877 when a squadron of American warships under Rear Admiral John Rodgers repulsed a Spanish convoy containing men and supplies in route to Santiago de Cuba. The first land combat of the war occurred two weeks later where, in a surprise move, the Spaniards successfully raided the city of Bavaro in the Commonwealth of Santo Domingo. The attack on Bavaro was part of Spain’s plan to take advantage of the U.S. territory’s fractured politics by stirring up insurrection in Santo Domingo against American authorities.
Notable U.S. ground commanders
Lt. Colonel George Armstrong Custer
United States Army
1877
With the Spanish-American War taking place roughly 14 years after the conclusion of the Civil War, the United States drew from a vast number of experienced officers and senior NCO’s. The most prominent of these Civil War veterans was of course William T. Sherman who in November of 1877, due to the rapid enlargement of the Army, Congress saw fit to promote to Lieutenant General, a rank that had not been held since George Washington in the Revolutionary War. Other prominent Veterans that would play an important role in the war included Lt. Colonel George Armstrong Custer and former Confederate General James Longstreet.
Lt. Colonel Custer, who rose to the rank of major during the Civil War, had since made a name for himself as an Indian fighter in the American West. Custer now commanded the 3rd U.S. Cavalry Regiment which redeployed from the frontier to fight the Spanish in the planned invasion of Cuba. James Longstreet had seen extensive action during the Civil War in the eastern theater fighting for the Confederacy and after the war had became the successful owner of a Southern railway company. Longstreet had also been one of the few but increasing numerous Southerners to join the Republican Party. Secretary of War Lincoln believed that the war with Spain was a golden opportunity to heal the scars of the Civil War, and that a former Confederate General turned Republican supporter would be a public relations masterstroke. As such, Secretary Lincoln offered Longstreet the command of a division of volunteers then forming in Florida under Corps commander Major General Philip Sheridan. Longstreet accepted the appointment and was awarded the rank of Brigadier General in the United States Army.
A 1876 photo of James Longstreet before he was appointed
a Brigadier General in the United States Army
The Battle of the Keys
The next major engagement of the war took place on Christmas Day 1877 near the Florida Keys, when a large taskforce of Spanish ships on its way to interdict shipping and raid the coast of Florida was intercepted by a smaller American force. The battle was technically a Spanish victory as the American force was forced to withdraw after over five hours of intense fighting. Interestingly, even though the Spaniards outnumbered the Americans two to one, the Americans over the course of the battle were able to inflict roughly twice as many casualties on the Spanish. This was largely due to the fact that many of Spain’s naval vessels were still largely made out of wood.
The American press at the time greatly exaggerated the damage the Spaniards suffered at the Battle of the Keyes with the Atlanta Journal calling it “one of the most hollow pyrrhic victory in history” and Harpers Weekly even comparing it to the Mexicans victory at the Alamo. Regardless, the battle did illustrate the important fact that the Spanish Navy was even more backwards than their American opponents, and with more and more American warships coming on line every month, Spanish authorities formed a plan they hoped would quickly win the war.
USS Saginaw
Sunk at the Battle of the Keys
December 25, 1877
Last edited:
The Battle of the Little Big Horn is 13 years after the TL's POD so with the corresponding butterflies the battle never happened. Also remember that The American West is getting settled faster in the TL than in OTL because the less severe Civil War.
Starting Longstreet out as a Brigadier General is good, but promote him soon. Maybe give him a Corp command under Grant or overall command when they invade Cuba. He would be one of the more experienced high level commanders at this time frame.This will be seen as a part of the reconciliation. Also don't forget Joe Wheeler, he was the cavalry division commander in OTL Spanish American War.
What about Joshua Chamberlin in this time frame? Would he be joining in this war?
What about Joshua Chamberlin in this time frame? Would he be joining in this war?
What is the fate of other Southern Generals
Patrick Clearbourne
John Gordon - OTL KKK involvement, probably did not rise to general in this timeline, but was an effective commander at all levels.
Forrest - OTL KKK involvement
J.E.B. Stuart
John Bell Hood
James McPherson - OTL died in Atlanta campaign
It would be aweome to see these men lead troops again. Perhaps if the volunteers are organised by states, these men can lead some again.
It seems this war with Spain will have several of these old generals and colonels wth experience will aid the American forces even if they have limitied command. That is, they may have commanded a corps in the Civil War but since there is an abundance of them and the army will be smaller, they may only commnd a division or a regiment this time around.
Are there any other capable leaders that West Point has produced in the last 14 years?
Patrick Clearbourne
John Gordon - OTL KKK involvement, probably did not rise to general in this timeline, but was an effective commander at all levels.
Forrest - OTL KKK involvement
J.E.B. Stuart
John Bell Hood
James McPherson - OTL died in Atlanta campaign
It would be aweome to see these men lead troops again. Perhaps if the volunteers are organised by states, these men can lead some again.
It seems this war with Spain will have several of these old generals and colonels wth experience will aid the American forces even if they have limitied command. That is, they may have commanded a corps in the Civil War but since there is an abundance of them and the army will be smaller, they may only commnd a division or a regiment this time around.
Are there any other capable leaders that West Point has produced in the last 14 years?
OTL Patrick Ronayne Cleburne fell in a suicidal attack at Franklin. Likely he served with distinction under A.S. Johnstn, Bragg and then Joe Johnston and probably kept up his record of being an undefeated Brigade and Division General up until the surrender. With the end of the war he was likely to either a)return to Arkansas and continue to study and practice law or b) return to Arkansas and enter politics possibly with his good friend Thomas C. Hindman. There is also the possibility that he would sign up for service in the war with Spain.
Much like Forrest, Gordon's role with the KKK was titular and little more than that. He entered politics in OTL once the war ended and was elected to represent Georgia in the Senate. He campaigned for the removal of Federal Troops from Georgia, worked with and promoted the Georgia-Pacific Railroad and became Governer of Georgia. In short he was a very active politician post-war in OTL and I would suspect a similar role for him in TTL.
In OTL Forrest was employed by the Marion-Memphis Railroad and eventually became the companies president but the company went bankrupt under his management. He then ran a prison work farm on President's Island on the Mississippi River. Forrest actually offered to serve for the Union in the war against Spain during the Viriginius Affair and Sherman would have accepted Forrest's offer had the situation escalated to war but it didn't. So it may be safe to assume that Forrest may see action in the war with Spain in TTL.
I'd imagine Stuart, as a devoted and professional soldier and somewhat of a peacock, would never turn down the chance to fight someone and gain more glory for himself. So he's likely to see action in the Spanish war as well.
Hood may not have suffered the injuries he did in OTL so, if he hasn't, he'd of been one of the first to volunteer to fight the Spanish.
If Sherman's in charge of things then McPherson will have a high ranking because both Sherman and Grant counted McPherson as their favorite. So if McPherson's stayed in the military I would bet on him having an important role in the war with Spain.
William Dorsey Pender immediately springs to mind. Killed at Gettysburg in OTL but one of the best young officers of the Confederates in the East.
Also it would be interesting to know what's happened to the two Hill's - Abrose Powell and Daniel Harvey - and perhaps the lesser know great Confedeate Generals who didn't survive the war in OTL - the likes of John S. Bowen, John A. Wharton, John George Walker, John Bordenave Villepigue and Thomas Benton Smith.
Also I'd like to know about the Federal commander John A. "Black Jack" Logan.