Will the continued existance of the Roman Empire as a nation sometimes at odds with the Franks lead to the Germanic Frankish language continuing to exist rather than mutating into the Romance language of French? It'd also be a lot easier for the Franks to hold on to the eastern Germanic peoples like the Bavarians if they don't shed their Germanic heritage. Plus I'm still hoping that the Frankish Empire can survive Clovis's death. Especially when contact with a strong Frankish Empire could lead to the Germanic and Slavic peoples in the otherwise blank parts of the map developing civilized society. I'm eagerly awaiting when the Polonian Kingdom becomes part of the map, and thus the timeline.

If anything, the continued existence of a Roman Empire would do the opposite, and focus the Franks more on Mediterranean affairs. With a surviving Western Roman Empire, I'd say that there is no reason to suggest why that wouldn't remain the case as well, and likely, the Vulgar Latin that is being spoken in the Roman Empire has a lot of Frankish and Slavic loanwords by now.

The big difference is going to be in Spanish, as much of that language was influenced by Arabic loanwords and there won't be that there.

What's really going to be interesting are the languages developing in Anatolia. We could have something like Franco-Eftal language developing in the 'Holy Kingdom of Asia' (which is quite a terrible name by the way:p), a Franco-Slavic-Greek-Turkish language developing in Constantinople, and a whole lot of other weird mish mashes. When the Viking's strike, there's now the chance for a Norse-Buddhist pantheon to develop if they reach as far as Crimea.
 
The Romanization of the Franks has already largely occurred by this point. Spanish (Hispanian) here I think will resemble the language of Italy to a great degree, with some Germanic loanwords.

The Polonian and other West Slavic Kingdoms are already part of this timeline, although they will have an increasing role from this point forwards as they develop further.

Bmao, do you have a better alternative name for the "Holy Kingdom of Asia"? I recognize it sounds stupid but to be fair there's been a lot worse names in human history. :p If it's any consolation it probably won't last long in its current incarnation.

Edit- I think mostly the "Holy Kingdom" bit is what sounds rough. Asia or, as Abe suggests below me, Asiana sound good. Galatia sounds too limited, I think.
 
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What's really going to be interesting are the languages developing in Anatolia. We could have something like Franco-Eftal language developing in the 'Holy Kingdom of Asia' (which is quite a terrible name by the way), a Franco-Slavic-Greek-Turkish language developing in Constantinople, and a whole lot of other weird mish mashes. When the Viking's strike, there's now the chance for a Norse-Buddhist pantheon to develop if they reach as far as Crimea.

It makes a rational sense that the Frankish crusaders would use the Roman province name for the area. It's just our modern habit of thinking of Asia as the entire continent that makes the name sound stupid. "Asia" was the last true Christian name for the area in their opinion. It might sound less stupid if they chose the alternate spelling of "Asiana" or use the name "Galatia" instead. The name "Galatia" makes sense because the area was settled by people from Gaul centuries ago. The Frankish crusader King might choose that name because of cultural ties to both his homeland and to the Roman Empire. I definitely agree that some sort of hybrid language caused by the unique circumstances would be interesting.

I'm serious in wanting to see OTL Eastern Europe get more love in future updates. Especially if it leads to a further spread of Norse paganism.
 
Let's go viking!
The Viking Era

The start of the Viking Era in Western Europe is traditionally dated to the raid on the young monastery of Mount Saint Michael in France in 789. However, in truth it had been ongoing for some time. The Vikings were if nothing else opportunists - the relative weakness of Eastern Europe invited many early raids. Trading ports were taken, sacked, and sometimes retained by the northmen. The Pomeranians and Obodorites suffered perhaps the worst, but also gained the earliest reprieve - by the dawn of the ninth century, the Vikings were primarily going further afield.

The first Viking raid on Anglo-Saxon England was the sack of Streanœhealh (Whitby) in 785. The divided kingdoms of the Pentarchy made easy prey for their longships. Seizing islands off the coast such as the Hebrides (822) and the Orkneys (810), they gained an excellent base from which to launch intensified and larger-scale raids on Scotland and Ireland as well. In Ireland the Viking impact was particularly strong, with them establishing or conquering cities such as Vedrafjordr and Dyflin.[1] These cities would become both colonies and trade hubs - an outlet for people who had little awaiting them back home and no reason not to migrate to a more temperate country where opportunity abounded.

In the east, other colonies were established. Most prominent among these was the "kingdom" of Gardveldi, carved out of the dominions of the northern Slavs. The early kingdom was little more than riverine trade posts and small hill forts - a level of development not distinct from the Slavic peoples they conquered - but Gardveldi would grow at a much more rapid rate than other Norse colonies in the west. Trade with the Khirichanid Turks to their south brought previously unknown luxuries north along the network of rivers. While the Great Votive War had constricted trade to some degree, the flow of goods quickly bounced back to its pre-war levels - the Frankish and Roman conquerors would have been foolish not to allow their people and the Sahu to continue their immensely profitable trade.

As in so many other periods of history this new burst of trade, whether it was spurred on perhaps by the swift-river vessels designed by the Norse, or perhaps just the emergence of a new market, also caused ideas and culture to spread. The Norse of Gardveldi quickly adopted Slavic customs and culture where it suited them, but more enduringly, the first Buddhist missionaries from the Xasar-Sahu would visit Gardveldi in this time. It is from them we have the most accurate accounts of the region, but though these earliest missionaries were greeted with curiosity and respect, they seem to have made little headway in converting any but the lowest-status members of society.

If the Norse were more receptive to these foreign ideas than the indigenous Slavic inhabitants, we should not be too surprised. Though Slavic tribes often collaborated with the Khirichan and the Sahu, this never developed into a very positive relationship. The Slavs saw the Khirichan as raiders and slavers from the south, an experience that the Norse never shared. To them the entire world was filled with opportunity. When Sahu missionaries brought them tales of golden cities far to the south, these tales would spread like wildfire and merely entice further expeditions of both exploration and plunder.

As certain [fake] theorists have claimed,[2] perhaps the best way to understand the Norse civilization is by contrasting it to the other great civilization of Europe - Latin Christendom, a term that can also encompass the Irish and Germans and all others it ultimately assimilated. In the past century, the Latin world had become increasingly insular and militant. The siege mentality it suffered would only grow as the Norsemen began to raid its shores. The Roman Empire it had known was destroyed not once but twice, and it had perhaps never truly recovered from the cultural shock of its loss. The traditional way which it had spread its borders and faith was peaceful - relying on the strength of its culture and traditions, it had assimilated those who meant to conquer it and even beyond. However, the Eftal conquests had perhaps unconsciously made Latin civilization doubt that strategy - the Eftal had not easily been assimilated. If they had been Romanized it was only minimally. The retreat into militarism and holy war can be seen as a broader sign of a civilization losing faith in its own identity.

By contrast the Norse civilization was adventurous and mercantile. It had little past to look back on beyond the mythic. They were forward-thinking, innovative, and curiously democratic. If they lacked centralization or complex state apparatuses, these traits seemed to favor their wandering mentality. Their religious and cultural tradition was equally ancient, if not as universalist. What was more, the centralized states of the south, Francia and Rome, were no more prepared to deal with the Norse raids and conquests than the more decentralized and tribal civilizations of the north. The infrastructure and armed strength that might have allowed Latin civilization to mount a defense against the Norsemen was massively atrophied and what remained was squandered in massive backwards-looking expeditions against the Eftal. When the Latin civilization encountered the Norse it did not do so with the same spirit that allowed it to subsume the barbarians of past centuries but rather with a militant rage all the more visible for its total impotency.

There are certainly some good points to this theory - the Latin world was weakened fundamentally, and it does certainly seem to have been unsure of itself in the wake of the Eftal. But this theory discounts demographic shifts and climate patterns which played an equally significant role. The expanding Norse population ensured that both civilization would come into conflict. Technological advantages in shipbuilding and navigation ensured that the Norse would outmatch the Latin civilizations in many critical respects, and the damage done to their civilization by Turkic raids and their own infighting would likely play a larger role than any lack of spirit.

India - the revolution spreads outwards

The social revolution begun in the early half of the eighth century would spread and further entrench in its latter half. The massive urban centers of India dominated society. Armed clashes between these centers and the rural peoples as well as armed clashes between polities both declined significantly as borders became stable. The equal-kingdoms, as they were known, began to establish a system of embassies and regular correspondence. Treaties regulating trade and defining borders were important to ending the anarchy that had followed the collapse of the Maukhani.

While the guild system had ensured population growth, it could not always ensure employment. Accordingly, people were often forced to seek opportunities elsewhere. Some of the few continually growing professions were mercantile or colonial ventures. Overseas merchant communities, which had existed for centuries saw the increased demand among the growing Indian population for foreign (especially Chinese) goods and accordingly needed to massive expand their enterprises. As more and more people demanded Arabian spices, African ivory,[3] or Chinese porcelain, these trading communities became essential, and grew rapidly.

For the first time, cities that could properly be described as colonies began to develop along the Persian Gulf and Southeast Asia. These colonies had generally speaking only limited political ties to their motherland, typically being founded as the project of guilds working in concert. They attracted primarily those of more heterodox beliefs, those unconcerned with caste or those whose caste was low, due to lingering superstitions about crossing the "black water." The exception was those migrants from South India, who disregarded the superstitions entirely, and Buddhists, who represented a large percentage of the population to begin with.

Ports along the coast of [Burma] developed to faciliate trade with the Indianized Pyu polities of the Irawaddi valley - a key overland route to China during those times that the Uighur-raided silk road became untenable. Cities such as Sudhammapura and Pulapali would grow into major port towns and useful entrepots for connecting India to the massive Srivajiyan Empire to the south. In turn, the establishment of these colonies would help unify the southern Pyu. The powerful city-state of Kusimanagara was able to spread its loose hegemony northwards, stabilizing the region and helping to facilitate trade.

At the invitation of the albudhist tribe known as Al-Azd, a group of Gujarati guild-merchants settled the small but prosperous port town of Musqata [literally "Anchorage"], known for its important natural harbor. The subsequent influx of Gujarati settlers would allow the Al-Azd to defeat Mezun, the traditional Eftal-dominated port of the region. However, by the time of the ninth century, the two most populous destinations for those seeking a better life and prosperity were the Hawiya Kingdom and the cities of Savahila. This expanding diaspora of colonists and traders would rewrite the demographics of the western Indian Ocean forever.

Like the Norse in northern Europe, maritime technology and unchecked population expansion combined to ensure regional dominance. However, unlike the Norse, the Indian expansion was rarely violent. Outside of small-scale border clashes and the semi-regular tribal warfare the Savahila found themselves entangled in, it was a relatively peaceful expansion. Furthermore, unlike the Norse, there was no one even roughly-unified Indian culture. The Gujarati colonists differed substantially from the Tamil who migrated to Sumatra, or the Tamralipti guilds who were the primary inhabitants of the Burmese colonies. Despite the hegemonizing effects of three successive universal Indian Empires, the languages and cultures of these peoples were drifting rapidly apart. Sanskrit as a lingua franca was a declining language of the intellectual elites. If anything, the guilds exacerbated this sentiment, emphasizing local and ethnic ties over any sort of universal imperial tendency.

[1] Feel free to think of the situation on the British isles as not too fundamentally different to OTL.
[2] What follows is me trying to do a more "old fashioned" sounding analysis of the two cultures. Let's not necessarily take it as gospel.
[3] It's a curious and apparently actually true fact that there does seem to have been a market for African ivory in India.

[It's a short update cause I'm strapped for time. But I hope it sheds some light on the alt-Viking era and what's going on India, which I've been neglecting horribly recently in my recent narrow focus on the Votive War.]
 
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Great update :D

I wonder if the Norse are going to be able to establish more long-lasting, clearly Norse states in Europe. Might the cultural assimilation be stronger in the ATL? With Latin Chritendom so distracted and splintered we might begin to see major Viking raids, in the style of The Great Heathen Army and major conquest :D
 
AWESOME!
India`s new model has survived, stabilised and spreads far and wide, yay!

Also, I´m still giving Norse Buddhism a chance, that´s such a cool idea it just has to happen somehow :cool:
 
Just got all caught up. Really fascinating stuff going on. The Romans look to have more than doubled the size of the empire with the conquest of Illyria, Greece, Samos, and Thrakesion, though I wonder how long they can hold it. With the collapse of the Mauri, I'm curious how piracy and trade in the Western Med is going. After the OTL fall of North Africa, piracy and the gutting of long distance trade significantly effected Western Europe. If piracy becomes an issue ITTL, I assume the Romans would be much more capable of acting than their OTL counterparts.
 
Just got all caught up. Really fascinating stuff going on. The Romans look to have more than doubled the size of the empire with the conquest of Illyria, Greece, Samos, and Thrakesion, though I wonder how long they can hold it. With the collapse of the Mauri, I'm curious how piracy and trade in the Western Med is going. After the OTL fall of North Africa, piracy and the gutting of long distance trade significantly effected Western Europe. If piracy becomes an issue ITTL, I assume the Romans would be much more capable of acting than their OTL counterparts.

The Amizagh Berbers have not become pirates to nearly the same degree as the Muslim Berber counterparts... yet. However, obviously the Mauri collapse has diminished trade, and there's not a whole lot the Romans can do about that.

But you're right the Roman fleet would be way more prepared. Probably so much so that the Berbers will never bother.
 
The historical analysis provided about the Vikings sounds as if it was written by a Buddhist scholar. :rolleyes: I'm still thinking that Christianity is still going to be the most likely religion that most of the Norse are going to adopt, due to the simple facts of proximity, though I imagine that there could be a small but lasting Buddhist population, and a few small regions or a small Norse state that could retain Buddhism.

It seems like the truth will be somewhere in between.


Great update :D

I wonder if the Norse are going to be able to establish more long-lasting, clearly Norse states in Europe. Might the cultural assimilation be stronger in the ATL? With Latin Chritendom so distracted and splintered we might begin to see major Viking raids, in the style of The Great Heathen Army and major conquest :D

Frankly, Latin Christiandom doesn't seem any more disunited than it was in OTL. Certainly, they had a similar identity crisis OTL when Islam rolled up all of the middle east and North Africa. The advantage is that with both the Franks and the Romans, you have two fairly centralized states that have well organized central institutions. That's going to make it hard for the Vikings to achieve major conquests.

For all the misgivings that exist between the Franks and Romans, there are still too many dangerous external threats that do prevent any conflicts between the two from becoming too heated.
 
Well, more drifting away from an imperial core

Well, the alternative of OTL is feudalism. There just seems to be a lot of distinctive regional tendency in this time period for India.

The historical analysis provided about the Vikings sounds as if it was written by a Buddhist scholar. :rolleyes: I'm still thinking that Christianity is still going to be the most likely religion that most of the Norse are going to adopt, due to the simple facts of proximity, though I imagine that there could be a small but lasting Buddhist population, and a few small regions or a small Norse state that could retain Buddhism.

It seems like the truth will be somewhere in between.
Oh, I definitely intended it to sound biased/unreliable. I try to avoid thinking about this timeline too far in advance though, to avoid railroading. So I can't say if it actually was written by a Buddhist scholar. ;) The Norse historically seem to have been pretty willing to assimilate to foreign cultures, even if they left their own distinctive elements in those cultures.

Frankly, Latin Christiandom doesn't seem any more disunited than it was in OTL. Certainly, they had a similar identity crisis OTL when Islam rolled up all of the middle east and North Africa. The advantage is that with both the Franks and the Romans, you have two fairly centralized states that have well organized central institutions. That's going to make it hard for the Vikings to achieve major conquests.

For all the misgivings that exist between the Franks and Romans, there are still too many dangerous external threats that do prevent any conflicts between the two from becoming too heated.
The question is can they maintain their current unification? I'd say probably yes, but its an open question. Clovis undoubtedly pissed a lot of people off by unifying so much of the West and the Romans are making enemies left and right. Although I've heard arguments that good ol' Karl Magnus and his unification were too early in any case. The infrastructure didn't exist in Western Europe yet for that kind of Empire to endure. If accept that argument, it maybe be good that Europe's a little less unified. Might help them react quicker to the Vikings.

However, my real point is that the surplus Norse population has to go somewhere. If a given area is too prepared for them, they'll probably just go somewhere else, following a path of least resistance.
 
I think "the Norse" as a whole will be at least divided between Christianity and Buddhism, with a lean to Christianity. Any Norse kingdoms established in the British Isles will likely assimilate to Christianity eventually... And I'd put good odds on Christianity spreading eventually to Scandinavia per OTL. In Russia, I think it depends on how quickly the Norse become Slavicized. Buddhism is the religion of the Khirichans, who have been busy selling Slavs into Mesopotamian slavery. I don't think it would have much appeal. But if Norse settlement is directed east (plausible if Clovis's kingdom holds together and conquests in Britain don't really pan out) we could see a Nordic *Novgorod or even *Russia with considerably more Norse identity. They might be somewhat more amenable to the religion. There's something of an organizational problem... TTL Orthodoxy has basically been butterflied away, Latin Christianity is dominant thanks to its role in liberating Christian populations in the East. Orthodoxy allowed autocephalous churches... TTL, will it be possible to run churches in deepest Russia from Rome?

I'm interested in seeing what Pannonia looks like after the Votive War. I'd love to see how a Frankish-Avar identity develops. Interesting implications for the Middle Ages with its waves of German settlement. Is Pannonia officially part of Francia, or is it composed of independent duchies? Either one I do t see lasting long, in th first case it is too far-flung to rule effectively, in the second I don't see small duchies staying disunified whenever Xasars recover again.
 

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The question is can they maintain their current unification? I'd say probably yes, but its an open question. Clovis undoubtedly pissed a lot of people off by unifying so much of the West and the Romans are making enemies left and right. Although I've heard arguments that good ol' Karl Magnus and his unification were too early in any case. The infrastructure didn't exist in Western Europe yet for that kind of Empire to endure. If accept that argument, it maybe be good that Europe's a little less unified. Might help them react quicker to the Vikings.
I'd say probably not. Charlemagne's empire was like a shark: it revolved around him, and had to keep going forward and eating or it would sink. And like OTL, it did once he died. Granted, the Franks here have a series of existential threats the Monarchs could play to keep the nobility in line, and are more centralized than OTL's Francia.

But holding Iberia is hard.

However, my real point is that the surplus Norse population has to go somewhere. If a given area is too prepared for them, they'll probably just go somewhere else, following a path of least resistance.
Or meet a wall and get killed. :p Its happened to some migrating groups before.
 
Granted, the Franks here have a series of existential threats the Monarchs could play to keep the nobility in line, and are more centralized than OTL's Francia.

Given that the Amizagh Berbers are far less involved in piracy than the Muslim Berbers they are probably not as destabilizing to the Western Med's economy. While long distance trade is sure to have taken a hit and I doubt that grain is coming from North Africa in anywhere near the quantities it probably was under the Mauri, grain from Sicily and southern Italy is probably still reaching Gaul in larger quantities than in OTL which would drastically slow down the advance of feudalism in the Frankish Kingdom. The Frankish state probably probably maintains a lot more of the Roman systems that the early and mid Merovingian kingdom had in OTL as opposed to the more uniquely Frankish systems that characterized later Merovingian and the Carolingian Empire. With the survival of a more Roman system, it's very possible that the Frankish Kingdom could survive in more or less the same state it was in when Clovis died.
 
Like their northern cousins, who before the coming of the Isidorian Navy had established pirate havens in hidden coves along the Dalmatian coast, these raiders disrupted both commerce and the settled agrarian peoples rather indiscriminately. While theoretically the local nobles should have been responsible for settling this threat, in practice they either failed or found it easier to simply take a cut of the plunder and look the other way as their neighbors were raided. Finally, in 716, the situation reached the breaking point. The Langobards to the north petitioned the Thessalonian Kniaz, Boris, to handle the situation or they would be forced to invade Epirus - a threat which would invariably drag the entire Balkans into war on one side or the other.

Boris is a Bulgar name that only became popular among Slavic people because it was Khan Boris that made Christianity the official Bulgarian religion. It spread with Bulgarian missionaries in the East Slavic lands. ITTL it seems the Bulgars settled in Anatolia, so it seems a bit strange.
 
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