The New Order: A Successful Selim III
- Thread starter Vinization
- Start date
An interesting prospect. But do the Ottomans have will for it? In a sense it might even hasten the Russian occupation of central Asia in the event of a defeat against the Ottomans ( which I hope Op handles)
At the moment they are obsolete and will be like annoyance to French. They can still raid the coasts for prisoners but how will British act on 'barbarian moors enslaving christian white women'? Slavery has already been abolished by act of 1807 unless @Vinization thinks of any butterflies?
Both sides' logistics are beyond awful, sadly there's no way either of them can march as far as Circassia.
No butterflies there, slavery's been abolished as IOTL. I'm still not sure on how to deal with the Barbary states, to be honest.
Barbary states was tricky because their main revenue was pirating and slavery, too things none of the powers are fond of, so getting rid of those two is also sending the region into a spiral of economic stagnation
Does this war butterfly Circassian genocide partly as it was in 1808 that Russian high command decided upon terror campaign in the region? Just my wishful thinking but if Russians press on in the caucasia simultaneously, as shown in the previous update they will collapse.
Although defeated Russian troops might again take their fury upon the circassians.☹️
Like I said previously. Vienna and Berlin should focus on courting Alexander of Russia to stay neutral in the next coalition against the Napoleonic order. Especially if Napoleon dies in the Balkans
What can both give him though? Napoleon is already supporting Russian ambitions in the Balkans with full on carte blanche, Berlin doesn't have any influence there and Austria had their own designs there that would clash with Russian desires to dominate the region, even if Austria pledges to not move in the region, it's already the same deal they have with the French. Not to mention that if they try anything, they're just asking for another kick in the ass by Napoleon.
In short, neither has anything to offer to Russia that it can't get by itself or with French support.
The Polish territories under Napoleon and the Habsburgs?
They're not very good territories however, especially because Russia on the peace deal with Napoleon was able to accept them with more grace instead of it being thrown into their face, so they won't take much issue with losing a territory full of a population that clearly doesn't want them there.
Not only that, Russia's current aim is it's warm water port as well as it's long standing ambition of toppling the Ottomans, something the French are helping them with and supporting. Even if they do great strides into that front like what's going currently, if they try and get Finland from Sweden, no one would object them doing so, either because of Napoleon gave his approval or because they're too weak/far away to force them.
I'm pretty much on the viewpoint of, there is absolutely nothing Prussia nor Austria could give to Russia or France to ensure their staying in their good graces. Matter of fact, given Napoleon married a Russian Grand Duchess, I flat out believe Prussia and Austria would actually have far more incentives to want to resist the Napoleonic order (to their detriment) than to want to stay in it, IMO.
An interesting inversion of OTL would be Alexander invading Prussia and Austria to aid his brother-in-law in the next coalition, inadvertently making it a re-enactment of the Seven Years War when you compare the Campaigns.
Admittedly, that's kinda what I want to see. Essentially have Prussia and Austria's teeth kicked in if only so as to keep Russia and France from focusing down on the Ottomans too hard.
I honestly see the conflict ending with a negotiated settlement.
Part 7: The Bear and the Crescent (II)
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Part 7: The Bear and the Crescent (II)
Though military movements were out of question for obvious reasons during the winter of 1808-1809, the Russian and Ottoman governments remained as active as ever, perhaps even more since they didn't need to worry about the front line for the next few months. Unsurprisingly, they both spent their free time badgering their allies for more support, or, in the Russians' case, anything at all - Alexander I was reportedly infuriated with Napoleon's decision to meddle in Spanish affairs, triggering the Peninsular War, rather than help his army by launching some kind of offensive in the western Balkans, logistics be damned. The Sublime Porte, meanwhile, urged Great Britain to deploy troops to reinforce the flagging Ottoman positions in the Balkan front, and London's reply came in the form of 15.000 soldiers led by John Moore, which landed in Kostence and joined the main Ottoman force just before the snow melted (1).
Part 7: The Bear and the Crescent (II)
Though military movements were out of question for obvious reasons during the winter of 1808-1809, the Russian and Ottoman governments remained as active as ever, perhaps even more since they didn't need to worry about the front line for the next few months. Unsurprisingly, they both spent their free time badgering their allies for more support, or, in the Russians' case, anything at all - Alexander I was reportedly infuriated with Napoleon's decision to meddle in Spanish affairs, triggering the Peninsular War, rather than help his army by launching some kind of offensive in the western Balkans, logistics be damned. The Sublime Porte, meanwhile, urged Great Britain to deploy troops to reinforce the flagging Ottoman positions in the Balkan front, and London's reply came in the form of 15.000 soldiers led by John Moore, which landed in Kostence and joined the main Ottoman force just before the snow melted (1).
John Moore, commander of all British forces in Rumelia.
Another matter that worried the combatants was money. War was never a cheap enterprise, and the Russian treasury had less than a year to recover from the strain it went through during the wars of the Third and Fourth coalitions. Worse still was the fact St. Petersburg's entry into the Continental System was beginning to show its effects in the form of a drastic fall in exports and a rise in the prices of luxury goods, to the discomfort of the same elite that murdered Alexander's father and predecessor Paul I. The one sector of the economy that grew was manufacturing, thanks to the lack of British industrialized goods in the Russian market, but it wasn't enough to make up for the problems elsewhere (2).
The Ottoman exchequer was also in a tough spot despite British subsidies, and the people in charge responded in the only way they knew, by raising taxes. This measure worsened a fiscal burden which had only grown since the start of the New Order, and, combined with the harsh winter and the devastation brought about by thousands of soldiers left and right, many of whom stole or extorted money and food from peasants and townsfolk whenever they could, prompted people to become bandits or, worse, rebel against Ottoman authority outright. The worst disturbances and riots happened in northern Bulgaria, especially at Plevne, and in the sanjak of Nis. The latter was an especially worrying development, since, due to the sanjak's Serbian majority, it was feared the discontent there could spread to Belgrade and spur the knezes into action. Though indispenisble allies in the supression of the Janissaries, many in Constantinople feared they would defect to the Russians if given a chance, due to their mutual Orthodox faith.
That was exactly what Bennigsen and the other Russian commanders hoped would happen, and because of it they made Vidin the target of their next campaign. It wasn't until Russian troops were sighted in the outskirts of the city in question, in April 2 1809, that the Ottoman leadership, which until then believed their enemies would make another attempt to take Silistra and thus concentrated the bulk of their forces there, realized the enormity of their mistake. To make matters worse, many of Vidin's once fearsome fortifications were neglected or even torn down in the years after Osman Pazvantoglu's defeat, out of fear they could be taken over by another rebel. The end result was that, much like what happened at Rusçuk, the Ottoman garrison surrendered in April 10 rather than keep fighting against impossible odds. The path to Serbia was open, and now all Bennigsen and his colleagues had to do was wait for the knezes' inevitable rebellion. And so they waited.
And waited.
And waited.
They had seriously underestimated just how loyal the Serbs of Belgrade were to Constantinople now, even those like Đorđe Petrović, who fought against its authority once and was exiled before his eventual amnesty by Hadji Mustafa Pasha (3). They had a status no other Christian population under Ottoman rule possessed, and they weren't willing to risk it to help a foreign army which was facing mounting difficulties since last year. The Russian high command was paralyzed by indecision, with Bagration and like-minded officers calling for an invasion of Serbia to "nudge" the knezes in the right direction while Bennigsen refused, arguing such a move would strain Russian logistics far too much and turn the Serbs against them for good. This stalemate allowed Muhammad Ali to redeploy the bulk of his forces westward, and prepare an attempt to kick the invaders back to the other side of the Danube.
The two armies clashed at Dunavci, just south of Vidin itself, but the battle that ensued was an indecisive slog since the Russians withdrew to Calafat in good order, despite their inferior numbers. Delayed orders and lack of coordination ruined the day once more, and Moore's men barely saw any action because of this, much to their irritation. Muhammad Ali Pasha hadn't yet scored the great victory he needed to secure an appointement to the grand vizierate, and recapturing Vidin wasn't enough. So he greenlit an advance against Calafat, the first step of a campaign to kick the Russians out of western Wallachia, and hopefully all of it by the end of the year. Calafat fell without resistance in May 4, and two days later 70.000 Ottoman and British soldiers finished crossing the Danube.
It was at this moment, right when Muhammad Ali's grand design was about to unfold, that everything ground to a halt thanks to a panicked report from Constantinople: the French, it seemed, had finally made their move. Having had enough of his brother-in-law's pestering, Napoleon finally authorized the transfer of an army corps of roughly 30.000 men to Dalmatia overland (marching through Austrian territory in the process), after which they were put under the command of the local governor, general Auguste de Marmont. He and his army left Spalato right as the Battle of Dunavci was being fought, and reached the strategic city of Köprühisar in May 2. The swiftness of his opening move and the ease with which he entered Bosnia soon roused suspicions of collaboration by the locals, since Bosnia was a Janissary stronghold and was engulfed by a revolt that was quashed just before hostilities with Russia began (4).
Still, despite all the panic it caused at first, Marmont's campaign was every bit as doomed as Napoleon's attempt to conquer Egypt and Syria a decade before: he had no real objective beyond stirring things up in western Rumelia and pulling back before the Ottomans smashed him. With Köprühisar secured, his next target was Travnik, then the capital of the Bosnia Eyalet, but it proved to be too tough a city to take, even for the mighty Grande Armée. For starters the terrain separating them from their destination was nothing short of atrocious, with many mountains, hills and forests that provided perfect hiding spots for guerrillas, which were already showing how effective they could be in Spain. Second, all three of Bosnia's main ethnoreligious groups - Orthdox Serbs, Catholic Croats and Muslim Bosniaks - were apathetic to the invaders at best, in case of the first group, or hostile, like the latter two, for reasons ranging from anti-clerical policies back home to bad behavior (read: looting) by the soldiers in general.
The result was that, despite not fighting a single pitched battle whatsoever, Marmont didn't reach the outskirts of Travnik until May 18, much later than he'd planned, and by then the city was abandoned, with nothing worth taking in sight. Despondent and receiving ominous reports that the population of Köprühisar was about to revolt against its occupiers, something that would cut his army's supply line, he ordered a retreat back to Spalato. He had lost a third of the men under his command, most from starvation and disease, though their continuous harrassment by guerrilla bands undermined their morale to an extent Marmont would later call Bosnia "My Little Spain" in his memoirs.
As big a failure as it was, Marmont's adventure still hindered the Ottoman war effort by forcing Muhammad Ali to sit still in Calafat for more than two weeks before it became clear he wasn't going anywhere. This, in turn, gave the Russians the chance they needed to concentrate their forces in the Danubian Principalities for a decisive battle. Trapped on the wrong side of the Danube, the Ottoman and British troops had only one way out if they were defeated. The clash that decided the outcome of the Russo-Turkish War of 1808-1809 was fought at Poiana Mare, just east of Calafat, in May 29 1809. The Ottomans were outnumbered on the battlefield for the first time, with 70.000 of their troops against 80.000 Russians. Their greatest disadvantage wasn't raw numbers, but in how many guns they had, an amount a quarter smaller than what their enemies possessed. If they were to win, they needed to put the right troops in the right places.
The Russian army in the days before the Battle of Poiana Mare.
And that was the very subject where Muhammad Ali and John Moore found themselves on opposite ends of a major disagreement, with the former wanting the British soldiers to be put in the center of the army to serve as an anchor against the veteran Russian infantry. The latter argued his men would not only suffer immense casualties there, but they were, despite their training, less experienced than their Ottoman colleagues, who held the line just fine (for the most part) during the first year of the war. The ambitious pasha acquiesced to his point almost at the last minute, and the redcoats were positioned in the left wing of the Ottoman army. Bennigsen and his generals, meanwhile, was understandably confident of victory, and sought to crush their opposition with superior numbers and firepower.
The Battle of Poiana Mare began, as any battle fought in that period, with an artillery duel. An eerie lull came over the battlefield once the guns fell silent, the Ottomans not wanting to risk an attack against a superior foe while the ever cautious Bennigsen hoped his enemies would march to their death just like Augereau's corps did at Eylau. When this did not happen, he ordered all his men forward. This was, of course, easier said than done, with some units moving ahead of others due to delayed or unclear orders, creating gaps in the Russian line and lessening the intensity of their attack. As the infantry's advance faced difficulties, the Cossacks found a worthy adversary in the Ottoman akinjis and delis, who let out what would be their last hurrah before their eventual disbandment (5).
Casualties mounted as the two armies pushed against each other for hours on end, both of them calling their reserves to plug in any gaps in their ranks, until the Russian right flank started to buckle under the pressure. Moore's redcoats saw their chance and pushed on until their immediate opposition gave way, then fled. With the rest of the Russian troops already fully engaged in various other points, the British were free to wheel around and hit them in the rear with everything they could, just as the main Ottoman line was stretched near its breaking point.
Seeing the catastrophe that could engulf his army if the fight went on any longer, Bennigsen ordered a retreat. All in all, the Battle of Poiana Mare was no different than most of the other engagements that took place in the Danube theatre of the war, the main difference being the amount of blood shed in the field: both sides lost roughly a quarter of their armies, or 40.000 men in total. Still, there was no hiding the fact the Russians had suffered a clear defeat, and their morale, already sapped by the lack of any decisive victories so far, plummeted. The streets and palaces of Constantinople were awash with official and spontaneous celebrations, and though no longer a holiday, May 29 is still known among some circles as "the day the retreat stopped" (6).
The days following the battle were uneventful as the Ottomans and Russians licked their wounds and waited for reinforcements. Since the former were much closer to home, theirs arrived sooner, and so Muhammad Ali ordered a march to Craiova, and from there to Bucharest, while the chance to do so without fighting another major battle was still available. Craiova fell after a skirmish in June 13, and after the Olt river was crossed a few days later, the way to Bucharest was open. Its capture in July 1 signaled the end of the latest Russo-Turkish War - any chance St. Petersburg once had of reverting hostilities to its favor was now gone, and the only thing the Russian diplomats could do was hope the victors' terms would be lenient.
Which was exactly what happened, to their immense relief. The combination of the Sublime Porte's lack of designs on Russian territory and London's hope of steering tsar Alexander away from Napoleon's orbit led to the Treaty of Bucharest calling only for an exchange of prisoners, the payment of an indemnity of two million pounds by Russia (just enough to cover the Ottoman Empire's wartime expenses) and the recognition of the Danubian Principalities as Ottoman territory. Still, the Bear's prestige was shaken, with its military, which delivered Napoleon his first defeat since his coronation, having lost to a state that was, until then, seen by most of Europe as a rotting edifice one good kick away from collapsing.
Mauc's Inn, the place where the Treaty of Bucharest was signed.
Though underwhelming when compared to the succession of cataclysms that were the Napoleonic Wars, the Russo-Turkish War of 1808-1809 had shown the Ottomans weren't a pushover anymore, while the Russian Empire, though undeniably powerful, had many issues to deal with, issues that would take time to sort out. The Porte and its British allies were now free to deal with the French positions in Dalmatia and the Ionian Islands, while Austria and Prussia began to smell blood in the water.
Napoleon's ongoing ulcer was about to get one hell of a lot worse.
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Notes:
(1) The British dispatched this force to Sweden IOTL in an attempt to help them in the Finnish War. They never got to land because of disagreements with King Gustav IV, and were instead sent to Spain, where Moore eventually met his end.
(2) I've decided to combine the usual consensus on how Russia dealt with the Continental System with some info I learned about in this site.
(3) Better remembered today as Karađorđe ("Black George"), who led the First Serbian Uprising IOTL.
(4) Bosnia was engulfed by a major revolt a few years after Mahmud II abolished the Janissaries IOTL, so I figured something similar could happen here.
(5) The akinjis and delis were disbanded after the Auspicious Incident IOTL, as part of Mahmud II's reforms.
(6) There's an almost identical quote in the Wikipedia article about the Battle of the Sakarya, so you can guess where I got my inspiration.
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Looks like the Ottoman Empire is going to become decidedly more involved in the rest of the Napoleonic Wars from this point on...And a major new ulcer for Napoleon that he has little ability to solve with how poorly the invasion into Bosnia went.
Also probably the first signal of Alexander's and Napoleon's alliance is fraying with how late Napoleon's intervention was and how little damage it then did on top of that. Especially with Russia losing the war against the Ottoman Empire.
Also probably the first signal of Alexander's and Napoleon's alliance is fraying with how late Napoleon's intervention was and how little damage it then did on top of that. Especially with Russia losing the war against the Ottoman Empire.
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At least the perceived strength of the Ottoman Empire will cause its status as a power in Europe not to be forgotten.
Perhaps several countries will remember the old Franco-Ottoman alliance against the Habsburgs, and look at the Ottomans as possible allies instead of possible loot.
And just as Russia became a French ally, and France invested in it, the Ottomans may get an ally with resources to invest in them.
Perhaps several countries will remember the old Franco-Ottoman alliance against the Habsburgs, and look at the Ottomans as possible allies instead of possible loot.
And just as Russia became a French ally, and France invested in it, the Ottomans may get an ally with resources to invest in them.
Good chapter, Russia was defeated and Ottomans showing that they're not fucking around, so hopefully that will give them the needed years to fully reform.
Speaking of which, Russia has a lot of reforming to do themselves given the way their military performed, thankfully the Continental System showed that despite the drop in revenue it did propped up the industry that fed the war machine instead of having to rely on foreign British trade, hopefully the Czars will take notice and continue protectionism in order to continue industrial growth to make them self sufficient in that area and not overly reliant on selling agricultural products, especially because it will help in upgrading the military.
Although with no invasion of Russia and thus no need to station so many troops in the East means Napoleon will have more men to throw into Spain, which I don't think will make much difference but can give him enough of a advantage that he can negotiate a peace with the Brits instead of being fully expelled from Spain. I also imagine the Braganzas still fled to Brazil? Because if they did and with the Brits more focused on Spain and Ottomans, means something like the invasion of Cisplatina can happen earlier from OTL while Hispanic America falls into chaos and independence wars.
Russia won't drop Napoleon just yet, he still has his uses in guarding against Austrian and Prussia thus giving Russia carte blanche over Finland and Poland and being united with him makes Russia not isolated which is great when it comes to diplomacy and negotiation
Speaking of which, Russia has a lot of reforming to do themselves given the way their military performed, thankfully the Continental System showed that despite the drop in revenue it did propped up the industry that fed the war machine instead of having to rely on foreign British trade, hopefully the Czars will take notice and continue protectionism in order to continue industrial growth to make them self sufficient in that area and not overly reliant on selling agricultural products, especially because it will help in upgrading the military.
Although with no invasion of Russia and thus no need to station so many troops in the East means Napoleon will have more men to throw into Spain, which I don't think will make much difference but can give him enough of a advantage that he can negotiate a peace with the Brits instead of being fully expelled from Spain. I also imagine the Braganzas still fled to Brazil? Because if they did and with the Brits more focused on Spain and Ottomans, means something like the invasion of Cisplatina can happen earlier from OTL while Hispanic America falls into chaos and independence wars.
Russia won't drop Napoleon just yet, he still has his uses in guarding against Austrian and Prussia thus giving Russia carte blanche over Finland and Poland and being united with him makes Russia not isolated which is great when it comes to diplomacy and negotiation
