The Horse and The Jaguar

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Personally I've always felt more towards a high count- 50 million at minimum, perhaps 70 million or more.

The Americas are huge, they should definitely have had more people than Europe pre-disease especially considering Tenochtitlan was bigger then any city in Europe. 60 million seems a reasonable estimate.
 
Plus you've got to take in account that not only did they have a wide range of cultivated crops, but (North of Mexico anyway) big game like bison, elk, and deer were in massive numbers before Europeans, even elk gathered together in massive herds. So there wasn't any shortage of meat either (and by extension little point in domesticating).

I'm sure North America at least would have no problem supporting a gigantic population.
 
Plus you've got to take in account that not only did they have a wide range of cultivated crops, but (North of Mexico anyway) big game like bison, elk, and deer were in massive numbers before Europeans, even elk gathered together in massive herds. So there wasn't any shortage of meat either (and by extension little point in domesticating).

I'm sure North America at least would have no problem supporting a gigantic population.

I think you are suggesting that my number for NA of 8.5 mil may be on the low side. my calculations start with an estimate of the population in 1300 AD of a bit less than 6.7 mil. As in OTL, there were epidemics against which the natives had no biological defense, however they were less virulent in this case. Mortality estimates for OTL run exceedingly high. I have applied a mortality rate of about 30% from a peak of 6.75 mil before the plagues to a low of 4.73 mil.

So, within roughly 150 years, the population rebounds and nearly doubles. Perhaps I have been too conservative with the mortality and too liberal with the recovery...Hmmm...

At any rate, the population density is still pretty low.

RE domestication, Native Americans were well along in their transition to agrarian societies at the time. You can't build a Great Cahokia or Mesa Verde if you're a hunter/gatherer. The forests of Ohio (I think it was Ohio) were reportedly like European parklands, where carts and wagons could be easily and quickly driven between the trees. This is because the land was worked with a highly productive form of woodland agriculture. As far as food security is concerned, it is normally easier and more certain to be a farmer than a hunter. in OTL there were very few potential domesticates in the Americas, so the introduction of swine, cattle and sheep by the Mongols greatly reduced the need to hunt.
 
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[FONT=&quot]Chapter 76[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He Could Now See The Ocean
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[FONT=&quot]A little over 800 li south of Qusqu and about 170 li up the Ilo River from the coastal city of the same name, a rocky massif rises from the river valley just beyond Chen Chen. Centuries before the rule of Auqui Maita Tupac and his forefathers, two nations with different beliefs and different rule peacefully shared this part of the Ilo valley for many years. One lived along the river while the other occupied the heights. For reasons lost to the knowledge of man, these two cultures faded away in the ebb and flow of time. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The river valley continued to sustain a parade of cities and peoples, nations and cultures until it came under the rule of Chimor and domination of Qusqu. Ilo, Chiribaya and Loreto stood along the lower reaches where the river met the great western ocean while Omo and Chen Chen dominated the upper portion where the valley divided to envelope the great rock.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]It was here, where the river carved a green and fertile swath through the great coastal desert that spread from the sea to the sacred Andes, that Auqui Maita Tupac had constructed his southern palace. Rising from the ruins atop the mesa, the palace took its name from the nearby town of Chuchuqaqa. The great wonder of the palace was water, which flowed freely high above the valley below. Water from the river flowed into tunnels carved into the mountain where it filled massive cisterns. The overflow drove ingenious water wheels that turned huge chains with attached buckets which carried water to the summit far above where it filled flowed from fountains into numerous pools. Channels mimicked the Amazonas and carried the water from the highest part of the summit to the lowest where it drained back towards the great wheels below, adding to their lifting power.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Those who did not know of the machines beneath the mesa thought is miraculous that water even existed on the dry summit, much less that it flowed freely through the length of the palace and its gardens. This miracle would have been impossible to even imagine just two centuries before, but now, the Sapa Inca could order water to flow on the top of mountains and it would. Throughout his realm thousands of water wheels drove mills, powered bellows and sawmills. Rough stone was dressed precisely with water driven machines enabling great structures to be built faster and with less effort.[/FONT]

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The Sapa Inca sat in a garden at the western end of Chuchuqaqa. From here, on clear days, he could see the ocean far to the southwest down the valley. It was early morning and Inti had just shown his face over the Andes in the east, illuminating the tops of the higher peaks between the mountains and the sea. Fog shrouded the coast from the Inca’s view but in its billows he hoped to see a solution to the questions that had robbed him of sleep the previous night. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Maita Huallpa, the recently returned admiral of the expedition to the west, and his captain, Hui Ghisa had been summoned to Chuchuqaqa to report to the Inca in person. Their written account had raised many questions in Auqui Maita Tupac’s mind and he was troubled. The value of their voyage could not be questioned. The wealth they had returned to The Empire in the form of trade was indisputable. This could be seen simply by looking at the Sapa Inca, clothed as he was in a robe of crimson silk worn over a simple Inca tunic of the softest alpaca wool. That tunic was cinched at his waist by a gold belt closed with a clasp mounted with the brilliant sapphire sent to him by Parakramabahu VIII, the distant King of Kotte. Of equal or even greater value, depending on which adviser he spoke with, was the knowledge that the world was far greater in length and breadth and filled with wonders and secrets that were previously unimagined. Much could be learned from the kingdoms and empires of the far west although, in many ways they seemed to be weaker than their wealth would warrant.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Most troubling to him was the presence of the Portuguese in that far part of the world. They had appeared to the east along the shores of Paititi and now in the west along the coasts of Kochi, Kannur and Calicut. The Inca knew that the actions of Hui in allying himself, and thereby Qusqu, with Calicut against the Zamorin’s local rivals and the Portuguese would complicate future trade missions and potential relations with the European kingdom, of which he knew very little. How big was this Portugal? How powerful? [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Columbo could have answered these questions, and in all likelihood already had discussed the European powers with the Inca’s scholars, but Auqui Maita Tupac now wished the man he had treated as an interesting curiosity had not been lost. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If the King of Portugal was at all like the Sapa Inca he would not treat the insult of Kochi, Kannur and Calicut lightly. If such an affront was committed on himself Tupac knew how he would respond. He would send a larger, more powerful fleet to re-assert his influence and exact appropriate retribution. Were Auqui Maita Tupac the King of Portugal, his trading post in Kochi would be re-established, under the mouths of cannons if need be and the city of Calicut laid waste. The Zamorin would be brought before him and humbled in such a manner that none on those shores would contemplate challenging him again.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Although he had no real insight into the mind of the European King, he must make his plans assuming the Portuguese would act as he would.
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[FONT=&quot]A new expedition was already being planned by the merchants of Chan Chan and Chiquiri and that would require an escort of war junks. So be it. Maita Huallpa and Hui Ghisa would again lead his ships westward. This time he would also send troops to support his new ally, the Zamorin. Trade rights would be negotiated along the coast and Huallpa would establish warehouses where goods could be traded and stored between voyages and Imperial ships could be re-provisioned, hauled and repaired at need. Ghisa would remain in the west with a contingent of war junks and support vessels to defend the local potentates from foreigners and insure that the warehouses were protected.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]To the east, Phuyu Wayt'ay, t[/FONT][FONT=&quot]he Kusa Hamawt'a of Paititi, would be told of the events across the western ocean. He would suggest that coastal patrols be strengthened and that his cousin be prepared for Portuguese aggression should they again appear along his shores. With reluctance, because Paititi had a less stressed relationship with Mani than did Qusqu, the Sapa Inca suggested that Phuyu Wayt’ay approach [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ts'akab,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Yax Ahau of the Maya, and advise him of the potential threat from the east.
How the unpredictable king would respond to the danger was an open question and both Wayt’ay and Tupac would need to look to their north in the unlikely event the Yax Ahau decided to take advantage of the situation and act against them. The Sapa Inca believed, however, that Ts'akab did not have the strength or internal stability to try to use the Portuguese as a game piece.[/FONT]

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It suddenly occurred to the Sapa Inca that Inti was now directly overhead, shining down on his child with all his light. Auqui Maita Tupac felt the warmth of that light on his skin and a feeling of calm settled on him. He had a course of action. He knew what to do and was comfortable with his decisions. He looked into the sky and thanked his father for allowing him to find his way.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Tupac stood and turned to leave the garden. He was surprised to see much of the court standing quietly a short distance away, waiting, as usual, for him to give direction to them and their lives. He was the Sapa Inca, the Emperor of Chimor; he was their reason for existence.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Turning back to look once more down the valley, he could now see the Ocean. [/FONT]
 
Menuju Kemenangan! That is Malay and Indonesian for To the Victory

I wonder if this can lead to Dutch-Chimú War...And how will the relation between Dutch and Chimor...
 
chapter 77 The Khan Laughed

[FONT=&quot]Chapter 77[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Khan Laughed

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[FONT=&quot]Auqui Maita Tupac, Sapa Inca and emperor of Chimor sent another envoy abroad. Ninan Rimachi was ostensibly a merchant but he had great influence in Qusqu. In years past he had served the emperor in myriad ways, messenger, agent, spy, military commander and advisor. In this case he would travel as himself, a successful merchant seeking new markets. He would travel far to the north and once he had reached the western Mongol Khanate he was to make his way to the Great Khan himself.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Inca wished him to inform the Great Khan of the danger posed by the Portuguese, and potentially the other kingdoms of Europe. That the Khan of the north had experienced hostile acts perpetrated by the Englishman Weston or that the Khan of the east had sent an ambassador to the King of the English; Maita Tupac was unaware. His relations with the Khanates were tenuous at best and he was grossly unaware of their affairs.
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[FONT=&quot]Rimachi arrived at the city of Mash Ikh Boomt, the primary market port of the Western Khanate, the[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Ordu lusöndür.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] The other merchants of the small trading fleet went about their business while he melted into the town and then into the countryside. He bought horses and clothes, hired local guides and began to make his way eastward. Traveling across the mountains, from one valley to another, through the passes between peaks that rivaled the great Andes of his home he eventually reached the vast plains that extended beyond the horizon.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]He had obtained new guides at a town called Awatovi and they led him to the edge of the land of the Great Khan. Having escaped the reach of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Khorghosun Khan he crossed into the realm of the great Jirghadai Khan, nominally ruler of all the lands north of the troublesome Mayans.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]His journey to Orun Ergül went unnoticed until he reached Santsepasu where he was noticed by a soldier. He Ninan had failed to accept repeated offers of Airag, the fermented mare’s milk that was favored in the Khanate. The suspicious soldier gathered several of his compatriots and approached Ninan. The Incan told them that he had arrived with a group of merchants along the coast but that he was a scholar and wished to travel the lands of the Great Khan learning as he went. His guides supported his explanation saying that he had spent much time gathering plants and asking questions about every aspect of life in the Khanate.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Somewhat satisfied but still uncertain of the innocence of the Incan’s motives, the soldiers brought him before their commander who ordered them to bring him to Orun Ergül to face the Khan’s officials. This suited Ninan and he happily accepted his capture.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]The city of Orun Ergül had grown tremendously since its founding and now had more than fifty thousand inhabitants. Its walls had been rebuilt every twenty or so years and were tremendously strong, designed as they were to counter artillery. The old city was still surrounded by high walls which towered over the new town, but they were overtopped by the massive stone pyramids, successors to the mounds of the Caddo, and mass of the Hall of the Great Khan, which dominated all aspects of the city.
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[FONT=&quot]Ninan was suitably impressed. Even Qusqu and Chan Chan could not match the towering presence of the great buildings of the Khan’s capitol. In his homeland, structures seemed to grow out of the land and the rock, they were a part of the landscape, but here they sat on the land with even greater weight than the palaces and temples of the Mayans.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Ninan was brought before one military commander after another and each passed him on to their superior until he was before the commander of the Khan’s own Ordu. Here Ninan identified himself as a representative of the Sapa Inca, the great Emperor of Chimor, with a message meant for the Great Khan from his brother in the south.

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Three weeks later, Ninan was led from his comfortable confinement and mounted his horse, well fed and well groomed. In the company of thirty or so horsemen and a handful of palace officials, most of whom he had met in the intervening days, he was led far out onto the planes. His journey actually took three days. On the third day he was escorted into a Mongol camp. Several Large gers were clustered together on the shores of a lake.

None of the gers were larger, finer or grander than the others and Ninan despaired of meeting the Khan in this place, but he was wrong. As the sun set a troop of horsemen entered the camp escorting a large and finely fitted horse drawn cart. The cart carried three men, one of which lay on fine cushions. This was the Great Jirghadai Khan, ruler of all the north, lord of the three Khans.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]The Great Khan was brought to the Ger closest to the lakeshore while Ninan watched. He thought it strange that he would be allowed to witness such weakness in a man of such great power. There were many differences in the way the Mongols approached the world and the way his own people did. Such infirmity of the Sapa Inca would never be made visible to the people of the empire, much less foreign emissaries.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Just as Ninan was finishing his evening meal he was summoned to the Khan’s ger. The Khan sat not on a throne or a great chair, but reclined on a couch covered with furs and hides. Ninan was gently forced to his knees by his guard and the Khan apologized for not greeting him on his feet. His legs, it seemed, were not his own at the moment.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Ninan looked on a man no older than himself, seemingly healthy, but unable to stand. The Khan had been out hunting and had bagged three antelope while kneeling in his cart. He was still an accomplished archer. Ninan, sensing a casual tone, inquired after the Khan’s health and learned that the Khan suffered from periods where his legs were weak, and had been since a hunting accident years before. The Khan was physically weak from the waist down, but powerful from the waist up. When his legs did not work, he compensated with his arms. The Khan was often a cripple.

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Ninan presented the warnings of the Inca against the Portuguese and the Emperor’s concerns about other European monarchs. Jirghadai listened patiently to the Incan, noting his odd speech patterns and the quirks of his pronunciation, but never missing the meaning of what he was saying. Finally the great Khan raised his hand in an unmistakable sign and Ninan fell silent.


“We know of the Europeans. They have visited the shores of our eastern and northern khanates. [FONT=&quot]Menggetu[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Khan has an ambassador in the court of the King of the English and Pulawej Khan has suffered insult at their hands. Indeed the representative of Menggetu was once a captive of the English while in the service of Pulawej.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]One Khan courts them while another seeks vengeance. The Inca knows that relations between kings are never smooth. We know of the Portuguese, but have not met them, and also the King of Spain and his servants who are friends with rebellious factions among the Maya.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That these Portuguese are in both oceans is new to us. Your tales of their cruelty in the lands of the west troubles us greatly for we do not wish such treatment to be visited upon our own people. What does the Great Inca propose?”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ninan replied;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Auqui Maita Tupac does not presume to tell the Great Khan what he should do, but he wishes to be of one accord with the Khanates when it comes to dealing with this threat. Two of your subject khans appear to be going in two directions in regard to these English. We do not know these people. The Sapa Inca would hope that you and your khans would share his concerns regarding the Portuguese. You have men in Europe and are in a position to discern their conflicts, goals and interests. We would hope that you would share what you learn so we may approach these foreign nations with commonality.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jirghadai was silent for a moment;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Tell the Sapa Inca that we’re in accord with him. Also tell him that we cannot absolutely guarantee the accord of our other khans. They feel the passing of Jirghadai in the wind and await their chance to supplant us. They see our legs and think us dead, but they do not see our arms. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Tell Auqui Maita Cápac that the Great Khan shares his concern and is with him. We will bring our children into agreement with us. We will guard against this Europe. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You will return to your Emperor accompanied by our own representative. You shall return to us as the ambassador of the Inca.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Great Khan then swung his legs over the edge of his chaise and stood, an impressive man. He looked down and said;[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
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[FONT=&quot]“When they are needed, they answer the call.” And the Khan laughed. [/FONT]
 
Menuju Kemenangan! That is Malay and Indonesian for To the Victory

I wonder if this can lead to Dutch-Chimú War...And how will the relation between Dutch and Chimor...
If you are Malay or Indonesian Mr / Ms Skywalker I value your approval greatly, and will use the above quote somehow.

With the seemingly obvious confrontation between the Inca and the Portuguese the history from Malacca to Hormuz will be changed. let the merchants of Amsterdam beware
 
just binge read this since yesterday. a really wonderful timeline!

sorry if its been asked, but regarding personal weapons, are the firearms of the chimu/maya/mongols equal in tech level to the europeans/chinese?
 
just binge read this since yesterday. a really wonderful timeline!

sorry if its been asked, but regarding personal weapons, are the firearms of the chimu/maya/mongols equal in tech level to the europeans/chinese?

I don't think it has been asked...

They arrived with the latest Yuan technology on the eve of the 14th century. 200 years of isolation and a different scientific and military thought process among the Mayan, South American and North American natives have led to some innovative refinements.

In general, the tech levels are similar but the European big guns are not as accurate (training is a huge part of this) and suffer from a range deficiency. The "Mongol hand guns are more advanced and can be re-loaded more quickly (an outgrowth of Mongol horse archery and the need for rapid fire archery). Explosive shells made their appearance in Europe in the late 14th century and in China about the same time. the Mayans used ceramic "bombs" of a sort and the concept has migrated to the artillery of all three cultures in the Americas. In this regards they are ahead of the Europeans, having already discovered that the flash of the firing charge can ignite the fuse of the shell, but the shells themselves are somewhat unreliable since the timing has not yet been perfected, but when it works (more often than not) the effect can be dramatic.

One of the effects of the asian influence has been that science has moved from a very heavy concentration on mathematics and astronomy to a more balanced approach where chemistry has moved out of the realm of magic and physics (of a form) is rapidly developing, particularly among the Mayans and the Empire.

There is not the heavy weight if religious dogma restricting the thought and exploration of ideas that plagued Europe at the time. Inventions are not the "work of the Devil" and practical application if new ideas easily occurs where there is real value and benefit.
 
Another great update.
Hope all is well by the way.

:D

Thanks!

Things are better to an extent, i am spending more time at home and Beau-Beau (my dog) is healing well (they rebuilt his left knee).

My father passed away early this month and while we all miss him it is a blessing for him. He knew something was wrong with his brain, but could not understand why he couldn't put his thoughts in order. Dementia is a vile disease.

We are now focused on taking care of mom, but with only one nonagenarian in the house, it is a bit easier.

Dad was 99 and mom is 97...scares the crap out of me.
 
There is not the heavy weight if religious dogma restricting the thought and exploration of ideas that plagued Europe at the time. Inventions are not the "work of the Devil" and practical application if new ideas easily occurs where there is real value and benefit.

I really think that's a bit of a slander - Europeans of the time had no trouble with engineering or technical innovations, it's when people ventured into astronomical or philosophical speculation that the Church got antsy.

Sorry to hear about your loss.

Bruce
 
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