Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

Short answer no, if Türkiye lets them use the straits for military purposes, its declaring war on the allies. Not a sane option in 1942 even in OTL, let alone ITTL with a better allied performance.
But if they employ Turkish shipping already in the Black Sea?
Short answer no, if Türkiye lets them use the straits for military purposes, its declaring war on the allies. Not a sane option in 1942 even in OTL, let alone ITTL with a better allied performance.
Turkish vessels already in the Black Sea need not pass through the straits so the treaty would surely not apply. Also Turkish, or other merchant vessels not carrying war cargo nor armed can pass and then be chartered for Axis commerce in the Black Sea also without breaking the treaty? As to what vessels and from where is another matter.
 
But if they employ Turkish shipping already in the Black Sea?

Turkish vessels already in the Black Sea need not pass through the straits so the treaty would surely not apply. Also Turkish, or other merchant vessels not carrying war cargo nor armed can pass and then be chartered for Axis commerce in the Black Sea also without breaking the treaty? As to what vessels and from where is another matter.
Turkey carrying cargo for either side is a no-go.
 
You can get subs through the straits. The UK did it more than once during WW1 and in WW2 if the Turks decide to turn the other way, no one is able to prove they might be Allied subs and not Soviet ones.
 
There weren't any RN subs in the black sea! Now a certain Gung HO First Lord of Admiralty put plans together for Operation Catherine in 1940, but it was wisely opposed by the RN. Besides I think for Winston the words "Forcing the Dardanelles straight" may have brought some trauma. Now if the strategic situation changes in '43 - with the Med secure, and oil being shipped by Axis to Romania for refining he may get the chance to really redeem himself.......
 
There weren't any RN subs in the black sea! Now a certain Gung HO First Lord of Admiralty put plans together for Operation Catherine in 1940, but it was wisely opposed by the RN. Besides I think for Winston the words "Forcing the Dardanelles straight" may have brought some trauma. Now if the strategic situation changes in '43 - with the Med secure, and oil being shipped by Axis to Romania for refining he may get the chance to really redeem himself.......
TBH in regards to churchill I often think that the signal at the start of the war “Winston is back” as much as it boosted the morale for the Junior officers and rating it was also meant as a warning for the senior officers who remembered his record from the First World War.
 
Sevastopol falling earlier may mean a few more divisions available to bolster 6th Army but as 11th Army in the Crimea was principally an infantry and artillery formation it's not going to change things too much. Still probably gets broken up and sent to all fronts.

if Manstein's suggestion of using it to secure the Kuban earlier was taken up then the Germans may have been able to secure more of the coastal strip on the Black Sea easing their supply issues a little.
You make a good point regarding usefulness to 6th Army. It would probably only be useful if retained in some form as a strategic reserve. After the initial failure to take Stalingrad and bounce the Volga, it could then be used to replace the Panzer formations with infantry more suited to urban combat. The Panzer units could then refit and theoretically be ready to counter Uranus. However, hindsight is a great thing, and building a reserve was not high on Hitler's agenda.
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
The question of how much the Germans can use shipping as an addition to their logistics efforts ITTL, is a complex one and the answer is very different to what the answer was IOTL. Starting with the most basic, can the German/Italians use merchant ships to transport goods between the Mediterranean and the Black Sea. Given that by this time in the Time Line and thanks to the recent transfer of the French Levant from Vichy to Free French control trying to ship goods from Italy or Greece via the Dardanelles into the Black Sea, in the face of British Air and Sea forces is going to be a very good way to lose their ships. With Crete and Rhodes as forward bases, and Cyprus and Beirut as reserve bases, the chances of moving anything other than the smallest of ships through the Aegean Sea without them being intercepted by British Air, Surface or Sub Surface units is slim to none. And with the British sitting on their southern border and applying heavy diplomatic pressure, the Turkish authorities are going to apply the rules of the Montreux Convention to the letter. And their is no way that the Turks are going to charter Turkish ships to the Axis powers either in the Mediterranean or Black Sea. With their historic enemy Russia sitting on their northern border and the British on their southern border, they are definitely stuck between a rock and a hard place. Plus there is the added problem for the Turks, they want to be able to trade with the Anglo Americans for vital supplies, such as oil, rubber, grain and manufactured goods. And this trade is totally controlled by the Anglo Americans, if they don’t play ball, no trade either by land or sea.

In the Black Sea the Axis powers have the problem of having the shipping available to conduct additional operations, in support of the Axis forces in the Soviet Union. Remember that without access to the Turkish merchant fleet and the Soviet merchant fleet they only have those ships within their own fleets available to use. They are not going to be able to build a whole new fleet of ships within a matter of weeks, that will take months or years, if the resources, personnel and shipyards are available. Unlike the Anglo Americans who knew that ships were a priority, and had started a major ship building program from the start of the war, the Axis powers especially Bulgaria which had a Black Sea shore line, had had no idea that Hitler was going to invade the Soviet Union much before it happened. Nor do the Germans have the extensive knowledge of managing shipping and allocating priorities that especially the British did. The British Admiralty had an entire department the Admiralty Trade Devision, that was established, experienced and could call upon experts plus retired naval officers to administer such an operation. From port Captains/Admirals to oversee each port and various departments to allocate ships, to an extensive administration office to ensure that all the departments were properly trained and coordinated. Trying to build a German controlled system in a foreign country, with the inevitable conflict between the Army, Navy and Luftwaffe, and with limited cooperation from the locals, in short order is a recipe for disaster. The Germans who weren’t the worlds greatest at logistics at the best of times, unlike the Anglo Americans who for all their faults were very good most of the time. Are not going to make a success of an effort ITTL, to operate a maritime addition to their land based system in the Black Sea region.

And while the Soviets are not doing well in the region, especially on land, they should be able to carry out some naval operations against the Axis forces in the Black Sea region. The Germans are a very long way away from home, and the land communications are bad to worse, while the maritime communications are just plain bad. As long as the Soviets can keep their remaining Naval assets in commission, and given just how inferior those on the Axis side are. The Soviets should be able to operate at night with very little trouble, it’s only in daylight without an ariel escort that the Soviet surface units are at great risk. And the constant pressure that they are able to subject to Axis to will increase the tensions between the various Axis sides, as the German Army is in constant dispute with the Luftwaffe about providing air cover for their operations, and to the Naval convoys being them supplies. While the German forces will be in dispute with the Bulgarians, about realising shipping to them, that the Bulgarians need for their own forces, and to conduct trade along the Danube and their Black Sea coast. The constant failure of the Germans to take into account the needs of their allies in all the theatres they operated in, and the obvious contempt with which they held their allies in. Was a significant reason why they never achieved the degree of cooperation that the Anglo Americans were able too. Yes the Anglo Americans had their problems, but they managed to basically rub along together towards their common goal. Note there was no Axis equivalent of the Combined Chiefs of Staff, with representation of both high commands, or members of the various Axis powers in any high command position. Nor were there the meetings between the political leaders along with their civilian and military staffs that were a constant feature of the Allied nations. There just wasn’t an Axis equivalent to, Newfoundland, Casablanca, Terran and Yalta, or any of the smaller meetings between various leaders that took place during the war.

RR.
 
I think my point is these butterflies all add up. There is no single magic bullet. 50,000 more excellent troops in the south in '42 won't win the war. 500 Panzers won't win the war. 500 more planes, 2000 Trucks won't. 20% more fuel wont. 3 weeks ahead of schedule won't, an extra Port caputured won't... but it all adds up to tip the balance in what was a very close thing. It's not like Stalingrad was a cake walk and a"bit of a jolly" for the Russians....

Resources from North Africa massively help , not just war material but logistics too..and yes I know Rail is a bottleneck - but increased capacity of distribution to the "customer" ( trucks) and more input ( fuel, supplies) results in more delivered - have fun with differential solutions using Little's Law if you want to do the maths. Several hundred more panzers, 4th Luft no longer having to divide it's support between 2 army groups, ports being taken earlier - and the Sea of Azov was used in by the Germans in later 42 but by that time Stalingrad was becoming a bit of a wobbler and risking all of southern progress. Romania had actually invested heavily in an increasd merchant fleet in the 1930s - but yes it was still tiny by comparison - about 18 ships with 75,000 Ton capacity. Most Ran on Coal too not Oil...some genius had read Ricardo and udnerstood Comparative advantage so F&$^ the "you use more precious oil to deliver oil" argument. Oh and some were delivered through the Dardanelles to Romania after war declared... Italy has lost a lot less merchant shipping lost in this time line , as well a lot fewer Cruisers and Battleships. It can definetly send some to the Black Sea even with Cyprus held it's a safer run than Tobruk....espeically empty and fast. So yes Romania Merchant fleet is tiny by Trans-Atlantic standards but 10 times faster to deliver to it's customers* May '42 saw the first loss of one of it's more modern 5, 700 Ton Italian built Transports by a dwindling and poorly supplied Soviet Black Sea Fleet but it wasn't really until 43/44 that USSR had the (mostly air power) to halt Romanian shipping.

All of these help. Germany doesn't have to conquer all the caucasus in summer '42.... it simply needs to cut them off. Stalingrad was a turning point for a reason..not the troops lost but the Strategic aims of Germany for all '42 in the East failing.. Here Germany stands a much better chance of success and the key, single worst decision ( I mean and let's face it there's no shortage to choose from) by Hitler militarily that summer - to Pull 4th Panzer down south only for them to have to try and run north again later in a vain attempt to rescue 6th - has less chance of being made as the circumstances that led to it - delayed Voronezh - aren't going to happen ITTL. Germany is poised to execute Case Blue ITTL. And whilst Oil won't be gushing back to the Fatherland soon** , far more crucially it won't be going to Uncle Joe either. 50,000 T-34s may have economical Diesel engines...but they can't run on turnips. Well not far anyway. Worse the Politburo risk having their Caviar supply interupted. And before you say - there was lots more Oil in Siberia - that was as well developed as the billions of barrels that petrol starved Rommel crossed over back and forth in the Libyan desert at this time.

The 3rd Reich were evil MFs. But crafty Mother fuckers. They knew how to prey upon their enemies fear of the worst to enable them to get inside their OODA loop (not a term used at the time but clearly well understood as a concept by Manstein, Guderian et al ). Not once, not twice but thrice they somehow managed to pull off - Hey Enemy country we're clealry going to go this way....but managed to have their idiotic and larger enemies believe them and achieve surprise. They pulled it off in 40, 41 and almost, almost OTL in '42 but for lack of resources which ITTL they have.

** There is a perception that the Axis made no attempt in advance to prepare for the destruction and repair of Oil Wells. Also that they were completely destroyed beyond immediate repair when captured. Neither is true. They could have done a better job preparing and repaired them as a higher priority that's true , but then with Stalingrad lost they had to retreat anyway. Several National / Private companies were formed and granted 99 year leases in advacne and 60 + Civilian engineers led by a man called Filipov who worked for them (but I can find no more info on) broughts thousands of tonnes of pipeline and equipment to Maikop right after it was captured. Without capturing the port of Tuapse there were limited means to get the Oil out so it wasn't an immediate priority vs. you know actually trying to kill all the Soviet soldiers trying to kill you, but it was far from completely destroyed by Heroic Partisans per Soviet propaganda. Even in the brief few months that Maikop was held it produced a couple of thousand tons a month for local troops to use (Romanians , with few motorised vehicles, used it to operate captured bakery ovens and product local bread) . Krasnodar, which was held longer before the complete evacuation by March '43 was producing 600 REFINED Tons a day - the Soviets got it back up to many 1000s a day in '44 - still well below it's pre war peak. They actually used abandoned German pipes and pumps to do it. If Germany had held it for a year (and keep in mind far far more oil was down in Grozny) - even just 1000 ton a day would be about half the total Luftwaffe annual usage. Oh and it's already near the front...so screw the trains across Ukraine problem.

* Because I'm a pedantic SOB - But not quite obnoxious enough to not put this pic at the end so ** before *

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Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
@Monty Man , if you are suggesting that the Italians can send warships through the Dardanelles from the Mediterranean to the Black Sea, I believe from my understanding that such a transit during wartime is forbidden under the relevant international treaty. As for sending Italian merchant ships through the Dardanelles, provided that they are unarmed that is within the rules of the treaty. However even with more cruisers and destroyers, given the greater number of warships available to the British, and the forward bases in Crete and Rhodes. The Italian navy is going to have to concentrate most of their available naval medium and light forces, in providing an escort, and there will be a number of violent naval battles in the Aegean Sea. Even by using the Corinth Canal and avoiding the long trip around the Peloponnesus Peninsula, which restricts the size of the ships, you will still have to fight the British at some point. In the end the only people who will benefit from a better Axis proformance in the Soviet Union during 1942, are the Anglo Americans, as there is more chance of the Soviets being further East, still in Poland when the Germans eventually surrender. And thus both Czechoslovak and Austria falling to the Americans and the Russians having more problems in subduing Poland.

RR.
 
if you are suggesting that the Italians can send warships through the Dardanelles from the Mediterranean to the Black Sea, I believe from my understanding that such a transit during wartime is forbidden under the relevant international treaty.
Unless the warship's originating homeport is in the Black Sea it cannot enter. This is why Türkiye stopped 2 ex RN Minesweepers going to Ukraine via the straits even although they had been transferred to the Ukrainian Navy.
 
RR , good clarification. Merchant ships. They delivered Italian Built , Romanian flaged transports OTL. All they would have to do is lease them and put a Romanian Flag on. Mention of Italian naval strength is simply the , not simple task, of getting past RN in the Med.
 
Having the oil fields around Maikop doesn't mean anything if you cannot get it back west of Ukraine, fueling local units is great but they need to have more than oil. They would also be in range of Allied bombers based in Persia and Germany would then have the choice of moving fighters to defend Maikop but that leaves where undefended? You cannot have both happen at the same time.
 
Having the oil fields around Maikop doesn't mean anything if you cannot get it back west of Ukraine, fueling local units is great but they need to have more than oil. They would also be in range of Allied bombers based in Persia and Germany would then have the choice of moving fighters to defend Maikop but that leaves where undefended? You cannot have both happen at the same time.
Why take it west? I thought the problem was getting it East or am I lost in German Soviet Rail gauges again...
Local Supply of fuel to eastern front easier sorted or at least helped. I think someone mentioned something about Trains FROM Germany?
Bombers from Persia? Sure but when? Shot down to a man in '42 by veteran Luft 4th and Richthofen's ruthless and effective (even OTL ,this ITTL he has less ground to cover), if they don't crash and get lost. It's almost 1100 miles from Tehran to Maikop over European's highest mountain range (Elberus about 3000ft higher than Mont Blanc) That's 50% further in much worse conditions than Norfolk airfields to Berlin. Good luck with your fancy Norton sight day light bombing...
Now if forward bases are secured and ground units (Hello .... Vickers Victor :cool: :cool:) then P-47s can.. oh no still can't make it... but P-38s.. oh can freeze to death at altitude over the mountains in Winter...and B-17s can turn up....but weren't they supposed to be bombing Germany? All trade offs. No one has unlimited resources in 42/43. But politically that means Allies been allowed to intercede in USSR.... that's a HUGE butterfly.
 
RR , good clarification. Merchant ships. They delivered Italian Built , Romanian flaged transports OTL. All they would have to do is lease them and put a Romanian Flag on. Mention of Italian naval strength is simply the , not simple task, of getting past RN in the Med.
If they are just operating these in the Black Sea fine, but if they are trying to send them from the Med there is the small problem that Britain is at war with Romania making these legitimate targets for any wandering RN subs.

Unless butterflies have altered the 7th December '41 declaration of OTL
 
Hm, could they sell the ships to Turkey, and buy them back again after they've passed through?

I don't think the Turks would be all that interested in such a scheme. Especially with the Allies making it clear such an act would be frowned upon.

Don't know if it would be against the Convention however.
 
Why take it west? I thought the problem was getting it East or am I lost in German Soviet Rail gauges again...
Local Supply of fuel to eastern front easier sorted or at least helped. I think someone mentioned something about Trains FROM Germany?
Bombers from Persia? Sure but when? Shot down to a man in '42 by veteran Luft 4th and Richthofen's ruthless and effective (even OTL ,this ITTL he has less ground to cover), if they don't crash and get lost. It's almost 1100 miles from Tehran to Maikop over European's highest mountain range (Elberus about 3000ft higher than Mont Blanc) That's 50% further in much worse conditions than Norfolk airfields to Berlin. Good luck with your fancy Norton sight day light bombing...
Now if forward bases are secured and ground units (Hello .... Vickers Victor :cool: :cool:) then P-47s can.. oh no still can't make it... but P-38s.. oh can freeze to death at altitude over the mountains in Winter...and B-17s can turn up....but weren't they supposed to be bombing Germany? All trade offs. No one has unlimited resources in 42/43. But politically that means Allies been allowed to intercede in USSR.... that's a HUGE butterfly.
You need to get the oil both West and North from the Maikop fields, let alone the ones on the Caspian Sea. Local use is ideal but you don't have that much need for that in the area once they are secured, you have other places that need the fuel also, remember oil is not just used by the aircraft, tanks and trucks on the Eastern Front. You have lots of need from the Bay of Biscay all the way to the front lines in the East and have to provide it in a timely manner.

Flying there to attack the area is not a problem because of the mountains. The 15th Airforce flew missions all the time to Austria, Central Germany and Northern Italy that crossed the different Alp ranges among others. You don't have to have a full airforce hitting the area, even bomber command with night mission should be able to find the area that is need to be hit. This is a classic area strategic attack and you would force the Luftwaffe to transfer their fighter aircraft to the area to defend it. Remember the Allies are adding more bombers a month than the Germans are adding fighers and pilots.
 
I don't think the Turks would be all that interested in such a scheme. Especially with the Allies making it clear such an act would be frowned upon.

Don't know if it would be against the Convention however.
I'd agree. Even at this point the Allies had a significant hold over Turkey in a number of areas such as arms sales. They used this threat on occasion I understand.
 
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