I imagine Engineers will be working to improve the road leading to the frontline.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
AIUI the all around tracks were actually due to the trench crossing requirement that both the TOG and the Churchill were originally designed to meet (though I think they increased the requirement for the TOG, leading to its insane length). The TOG 2’s tracks, rather than a return to conventional were, IIRC, actually a bit of an innovation allowing an easier layout without sacrificing trench crossing ability. Been a while since I read Andrew Hills book, but I think that is his take.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Given the problems that the mechanical forces have suffered in moving up to the front, the question is what are the British going to do about this. The answer is simple, all that they are able too, given the materials and manpower available in this theatre. However it’s not just as simple as improving the roads, which is responsible easy to do, they are also going to have to improve the infrastructure, which is far more difficult. Even just to be able to support a Light Tank on a transport or a standard supply lorry, all the bridges will need to be able to support a 20 ton load. While ideally 30 tons, would be a much better option, as the British will if they are able to hold the position, will want to provide medium gun support to the front line. And it’s not going to be too long before heavier tanks and guns are deployed to this area. They are also going to have to improve the port facilities at Moulemein, as there is going to be much greater capacity needed to support the increasing military presence. While it was a major port for the export of timber, I seriously doubt that it had at the time any cranes ratted at 5 tons and above. Nor is it at this time linked to Rangoon by rail, as the rail head is on the opposite bank of the river, and all loads would require transshipment from rail to boat to lorry. Burma at this time had very poor transport infrastructure, especially on its borders, and it is going to require significant effort to improve the infrastructure.
RR.
RR.
allanpcameron
Donor
Eventually, if the British are able to take Bangkok from Malaya, the 'Burmese front' becomes less important. I agree that improving infrastructure is necessary, but I don't imagine that Rangoon will be the main port in the area. As the beginning of the road to China yes, but Malaya, with road and rail is probably the better base from which to clear Thailand (and Indo-China eventually).
Allan.
allanpcameron
Donor
By the way, does anyone know anything about the Meteor engine (ex-Merlin) being made into a diesel engine? I can find some evidence that the Meteorite was both petrol and diesel, but my google-fu has failed me.
Allan.
Allan.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Sir you are completely correct in that, should the British be able to capture Bangkok, the majority of Burma will revert to its pre war status. The only exception to this is as you say Rangoon, which will remain the entry port for supplies destined for China ether over the Burma Road, or via a minor air bridge. In the case of Bangkok while I would expect it to be the principal port of entry for any further operations in Thailand, I would expect that any operations in FIC will be supplied from the nearest coastal port. The principle port in the region will remain Singapore, as not only is it the port with the largest roads to assemble shipping in, it unlike most of the remaining ports in the region, have restricted access being as they are on river estuaries.
RR.
if meteorite could be turned into diesel, then so could the meteor.
the meteorite engine essentially was a 2/3 meteor ( 8cil instead of 12)
Hello,
It looks like the engine was both made into petrol and diesel versions...
Rolls-Royce Meteor V12 engine (1943-1959)
Rolls-Royce Meteor V12 engine From 1943 to 1959 The Rolls-Royce Meteor was a British V - 12 cylinder - tank engine with liquid cooling , which in the year 1943 during the Second World War from the aircraft engine Rolls-Royce Merlin was derived. This was the source of power for various ...
Rolls-Royce Meteorite
The Rolls-Royce Meteorite was a British V8 petrol or diesel engine of 18.01 litres (1,099 cu in) capacity, and was derived from the Rolls-Royce Meteor, which was itself based on the Rolls-Royce Merlin aircraft engine. The Meteorite was, in essence, two-thirds of a V12 Meteor and it shared the...
dbpedia.org
A Meteor with a Rootes type supercharger would provide a boost in power without the need for complicated turbo set ups. It would be a waste to set up Meteor production then swap it for another engine design so soon, no matter how similar.
I think the Meteor will be good for anything up to the end of the war, it was plenty for the Centurion and I cant see us needing anything bigger than that tank.
I think the Meteor will be good for anything up to the end of the war, it was plenty for the Centurion and I cant see us needing anything bigger than that tank.
Look More Closely Later
Gone Fishin'
Well actually...
It's in Hansard (edit: in Churchill's response towards the end as part of the day 2 of 2 of the July 1942 'what the **** is going on with the war at the moment?' debate): https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1942-07-02/debates/64dacb26-408e-4010-aae7-dc5b54c7da0f/CentralDirectionOfTheWarWinston Churchill said:
(There was actaully a bit about the OTL tanks and artillery in the debate on that day and the previous one ( https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...60-a243-90fd3528ede1/CentralDirectionOfTheWar ).)
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Something like a Tetrarch CS would probably be great, or maybe one of the Nuffield cruiser tanks with the 3-inch howitzer...
optimally would be the A10CS or even better a Valentine CS since they're pretty light, but I think all the A10s have already been sent and the Valentine doesn't exist, so...
Irrespective of if it was done in OTL or not ITTL it wouldn't make much sense. A diesel Meteor would only produce around 400+ hp initially which is the same as the Lion ITTL.
If Britain want's a more powerful diesel engine then they are better off designing one from scratch honestly. The issue is that to get equivalent power to a petrol will require a notably larger engine. The V2 diesel the soviets used in their heavy tanks was about 40% larger than the merlin for example in terms of displacement while only giving around 140lb/ft more torque and basically the same power.
There are ways to get more power and incidentally fuel efficiency from engines, namely Turbo and Super chargers. The problem is I don't know of any way for the British to get a decent number of superchargers and not impact aircraft engine availability unless there was a greater manufacturing capacity than I am aware of. Turbocharges are in some ways worse as Britain wasn't really building them in numbers as far as I am aware. America was so they could potentially be a source but they have their own issues as well.
Yet Ricardo has managed to squeeze 400 hp out of a diesel Lion, an engine that never got above 900 hp without superchargers.
The V8 Diesel meteorite was only a 250hp engine. Increasing the power by 50% to account for the extra cylinders then adding 10% because of additional efficiencies only gets to around 420hp. Without looking back I can't comment on how the Lion was gotten to 400hp though there is certainly a possibility that the engine was bored out etc to increase displacement. That is something far easier to do with an older engine design that can make use of improved metallurgy for instance. In addition increasing the height of the cylinders is another way to increase power and something Ricardo did with the 6cyl engine in the British WW1 tanks to get the jump in power from 100 to 150hp. Some changes like that could be done to the Meteor for additional power but that will increase size and weight and at that point you have in effect got a semi new engine rather than a straight diesel meteor.
If you are making changes to fundamental things like Bore and Stroke for the engine as well as the fuel you are unlikely to be able to use much tooling from Merlin's and Meteors. At that point if you are putting in that much work you have to ask is it not better to design and build a new engine.