Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
The RN Sank half the German surface fleet and put about half of the rest into repair yards
If HMS Glorious had not forgotten she was a man o war in a war zone the 'score' would have been even more one sided
As for France, Britain had about 9 Infantry Divisions committed plus an armoured division that was committed in 3 parts and did not fight as a whole Division (Arras with 2 tank battalions 23 matilda II and 77 matilda 1, Calais with 1 mixed light and Cruiser tank Battalion and the motorised rifles regt all which was lost when the port was captured* and as a component of the 2nd BEF, the divisions 2nd Brigade all Crusiers - most of which were lost in several badly supported missions with the rest lost during the final withdrawl from France).
The BEF was a drop in the ocean next to the French Army (about 100 Divisions) and Belgium army (about 23 Divisions) - Once the French had been effectively defeated in the North East and the Belgians surrendered without warning there was not a hell of a lot the BEF could do to reverse fortunes
*One of Winston's poorer decisions as the garrison of British and French troops should have been evacuated but he did not want the French to feel that they had been abandoned - I believe it was Gen Lord Ironsides who replied "A corpse cannot be made to feel"
Given the balance of forces it could be argued that the German navy should never have been able to reach anywhere but Oslo.
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Yeah. It's fine to say the Asiatic Fleet failed, but they were using mostly older vessels, were a fair distance from major support, and were facing a peer, if not better, enemy. Meanwhile, the Home Fleet, operating in its own back yard, failed to stop the Germans from taking over Norway. Hells, a not insignificant portion of the damage done to the German forces was done by antique Norwegian coastal defences.
Fair one - but the RN also had to guard against a major break out or attack on the UK (which had happened several times in the previous war) and had to do so without a history book from 2023 telling them how silly they were.
The actual German attack was delayed by several days - had it not been then things might have gone worse for the Germans as the British had some solid intel on the original attack date.
Also if an invader occupies the south of Norway - they occupy Norway and once France fell they get the rest!
Granted the iron ore deposits at Narvik was a major prize of the German Op!
Badly led and green pilots were in those spits during the Darwin raid.
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This reminds me of something I was told by a Scottish friend many years ago - "A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipes, but doesn't."
A bastard is someone who can't play the pipes, but does anyway.This reminds me of something I was told by a Scottish friend many years ago - "A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipes, but doesn't."
The first Spitfires to arrive in the SW Pacific theatre were intended to defend Darwin. On their first mission, approximately half of their number were lost to lack of fuel. They were notoriously short-legged and until that fact was learnt, they kept crashing on their return from an interception.
Well if they did anything like OTL, all the ex-cavalry tankers went charging at the Germans, and ended up skewering themselves on the Germans' anti-tank guns.
Since I don't recall much of the Battle of France being mentioned outside of the differences in infantry tanks, I'm going to guess that the rest of the battle mostly went similar to OTL.
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Battle of France went pretty much OTL though ITTL the British Armour particularly the first Valiants gave the Germans a bloody nose particularly Rommel who had a grudge when he turned up in North Africa this time and the British were able to lug some captured German equipment back over the Channel.
Actually, wasn't it more the pom-pom armed Matilda 1s which made a difference where used. The Valiants were sent back to the UK after a brief encounter once someone higher up realised they were in France.
Yep, the Valiants were only used to force a passage and supply convoy from Calais up to Dunkirk, allowing the British troops to capture a lot of equipment from defeated/captured Germans blocking the way. That captured equipment, plus the Valiants (there were only 3 I believe) were all sent straight back to the UK.
The majority of the damage to the German forces, such as at Arras, was done mainly as a result of the pom-pom armed A11 Matilda’s. Not the Valiants. At that point, they were not even rated for combat. The 3 that managed to turn up in France were (IIRC) either from the testing grounds or a training group
Really stretching credibility - 6 subs take down 8 transport with no loss - when there are 15 destroyers present? OTL one dutch managed to sneak into a bay and take 4 transports that were at rest , unloaded , with no destroyers present -, an amazig feat, although it was subsequently lost. OK so IJN ASW may not have been the best but even the speeds alone make this next to impossible. Were the Subs surfaaced? Ok - they they are fast enough to get multilpe attacks on moving transports in - but they are ALL DEAD. Submerged - absolute best 100% hits - one sub one transportmoving at speed - sub doig 6 or 7 knots, cannot fire on multiple targets (they are not handily going to be bunched up and the MK 8 torpedo goes in a straight line - you can adjust the speed to 2 settings in 1941 - that's it. Yes this is a What If - but this is the equivalent of the HE shells on those Pom Poms all taking out the 88mm AA/AT at Arras - whislt Rommel is standing next to them, and Mathilda's driving to Brussels. If Subs on convoys (when outnumbered at least 2 to 1 ) by desroyers then UK should surrender now as they must be losing 1M tonnnes a week from U boats. The Transposrts are faster then the Subs, the Destroyers much much faster.
10 ships were reported sunk, but we don't know which ones. The majority might have been sub-chasers and patrol boats.
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allanpcameron
Donor
Sorry, a disconnect between two issues. Total ships sunk 8 ships, unidentified - later mention of concentration on transports. I didn't clarify, sorry. My presumption was 8 ships, probably mostly warships.
Allan
