Renovation: An Eastern Roman Timeline

[Gukpard]

Also, here's the thing. I do not want the original borders of Theodosius' division. I do not want the Byzies to conquer all the way to Egypt. Because as long as that happens, there will always be the possibility of horrible, unconscionable atrocities against people, as well as the possibility that some Byzie general would decide to loot Mecca for money. That is just wrong.

The world isn't a tea party, Tamerlane probably did as much atrocities as Genghis Khan or even more in this timeline, there is no way that the byzantine rule would be worse than their

Plus, the byzantine empire had a concept of many peoples living under their flag (like ottomanism), even the norsemen of the varangian guard settleted in their lands and converted, so it is way more likely a not-so-bloody conquest and then integration after the war than a mongol style invasion and looting

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

The world isn't a tea party, Tamerlane probably did as much atrocities as Genghis Khan or even more in this timeline, there is no way that the byzantine rule would be worse than their

Plus, the byzantine empire had a concept of many peoples living under their flag (like ottomanism), even the norsemen of the varangian guard settleted in their lands and converted, so it is way more likely a not-so-bloody conquest and then integration after the war than a mongol style invasion and looting

All right, I would concede those points, but the fact remains that a Muslim Egypt, given the right PoDs, would be more culturally vibrant than a Christian One - heck, even OTL Egypt produced Muhammad Abduh; how much more would an Egypt that has never been conquered by any Christian Power?

 

[Gukpard]

All right, I would concede those points, but the fact remains that a Muslim Egypt, given the right PoDs, would be more culturally vibrant than a Christian One - heck, even OTL Egypt produced Muhammad Abduh; how much more would an Egypt that has never been conquered by any Christian Power?

The christian egypt also gave us great names like Athanasius of Alexandria, heck, one of the earliest centers of christianity was Alexandria and the egyptians even have their own pope, while their coptic church dates back to 43 AD, even before the roman empire adopted christianity

The problem isn't who is ruling egypt, but how do they rule, this Timurid Egypt is vibrating not because Tamerlane son is muslim, christian, pagan or teengrist, it is because he's tolerant and good administrator, while his father was at the very best a brute who looted everything he could and only stopped when he fell dead.

Edit: A good example or a personality like TTL son of Tamerlane is Kublai Khan, the leader of the Yuan dynasty in China, he was a brute too, but during his reign it was an era of moving intellectuals around the empire, the Islamic world receiving Chinese medicine and the sinosphere Arab mathematics etc.

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

The christian egypt also gave us great names like Athanasius of Alexandria, heck, one of the earliest centers of christianity was Alexandria and the egyptians even have their own pope, while their coptic church dates back to 43 AD, even before the roman empire adopted christianity

The problem isn't who is ruling egypt, but how do they rule, this Timurid Egypt is vibrating not because Tamerlane son is muslim, christian, pagan or teengrist, it is because he's tolerant and good administrator, while his father was at the very best a brute who looted everything he could and only stopped when he fell dead.

Edit: A good example or a personality like TTL son of Tamerlane is Kublai Khan, the leader of the Yuan dynasty in China, he was a brute too, but during his reign it was an era of moving intellectuals around the empire, the Islamic world receiving Chinese medicine and the sinosphere Arab mathematics etc.

Point taken; I guess I just have a bias from how I saw An Age of Miracles do things.

 

[Emperor of Greater India]

Well we have got a good brainstorming session here about Egypt. Well I always think that as long as the administration is tolerant and competent enough, it doesn't matter who rules the land. I would have never placed trust in the Mongols for being even close to being tolerant or bearing any resemblance to competent administrators (what else can you expect from a tribal society accustomed to just ruling over their own tribe).

These are just my thoughts. I would not raise questions to the plausibility of Timurid Egypt's rulers being competent because of the way events have happened ITTL. If the Byzies regain control over Egypt by some accident I still don't think that they would not try to make life difficult for the Muslims there. But with conditions leading to the conquest of Egypt, the Byzantines will have such a number of Muslims under their rule that they could not afford to risk angering them by some harsh measures unless they want rebellions to rise across their conquests.

My opinion is that we should better leave the discussion about Egypt for a while until it truly matters because for now the Byzantines got to reclaim Anatolia before even thinking about even the Levant.

 

[Roland Traveler]

Point taken; I guess I just have a bias from how I saw An Age of Miracles do things.

BURN MECCA FIVE TIMES!!! MAYBE THEN THOSE FILTHY ARABS WILL LEARN! MUAHAHA!!!

Remember, this Byzantium has far less resources than the AoM Byzantium and wouldn't conquer any piece of Arabia of they could. There's just not enough money to be made.

 

[Scorpius72]

Point taken; I guess I just have a bias from how I saw An Age of Miracles do things.

I'd forgot about that fic, is it completed and if so is there a story only thread for it?

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Nope, still continuing.

To be honest, my personal dislike may be unjustified, but I do have a professional dislike of AAoM because I think Renovation is the better TL.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Nope, still continuing.

To be honest, my personal dislike may be unjustified, but I do have a professional dislike of AAoM because I think Renovation is the better TL.

I just thought you didn't like the Eastern Reconquest trope tbh. I can understand not enjoying how AAoM achieved its ends in the regions.

I would love to see the more mercantile Byzantium we have in this timeline focusing on becoming more secular - and more tolerant. Outright Muslim themes, but an official policy of peaceful conversion, with a reverse Jizya on those NOT in the army, that seems about the limit IMO, without some serious incidents.

I do like the trope, mainly because I want to see this mercantile Byzantium flourish as a trading power in the E.Indies - because I like that trope a whole bunch.

If the Romans somehow do the "Mediterranean" route and do the same thing, that would be... unorthodox.

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

I just thought you didn't like the Eastern Reconquest trope tbh. I can understand not enjoying how AAoM achieved its ends in the regions.

I would love to see the more mercantile Byzantium we have in this timeline focusing on becoming more secular - and more tolerant. Outright Muslim themes, but an official policy of peaceful conversion, with a reverse Jizya on those NOT in the army, that seems about the limit IMO, without some serious incidents.

I do like the trope, mainly because I want to see this mercantile Byzantium flourish as a trading power in the E.Indies - because I like that trope a whole bunch.

If the Romans somehow do the "Mediterranean" route and do the same thing, that would be... unorthodox.

Possibly, but Sov said earlier in this thread that not only would the Rhomans not conquer Egypt, but this lack of conquests would drive the Rhomans to develop their manufacturing sector, to thier longer-term profit.

 

[idumea]

IMO Egypt OTL only became recognizably a Muslim Arab dominant state in the 19th century. The various caliphates recognized its diversity and plurality of Greeks, Copts, Nubians, Beja and Arabs. The colonial authorities set them against each other, and the modern Egyptian identity is a little bit similar to Greeks and Turks in that several formerly distinct cultures have assimilated into a first "Pharaonised" and now Arabised identity today.

Whether Egypt is Timurid or Roman, there are enough peoples there with strong cultural ties to not have their country drastically changed for centuries. But, the Timurid isolation from the Turkic lands will lead to an interesting new synthesis among their ruling class and I would be interested to see what kinds of influences they take on going forward.

 

[Gukpard]

Anyone here is good with flags? If someone is, can you make the flag of the Timurid egypt? Here is my idea:

This is the mamluk flag of Egypt:

And this is the timurid flag:

What about this, a yellow-black background with the three timurid spheres?

 

[Shahrasayr]

Anyone here is good with flags? If someone is, can you make the flag of the Timurid egypt? Here is my idea:

This is the mamluk flag of Egypt:


And this is the timurid flag:


What about this, a yellow-black background with the three timurid spheres?

Like such?

By the way Sov, great TL keep it up. Really want to see you take this to the modern day.

 

[Gukpard]

Like such?

By the way Sov, great TL keep it up. Really want to see you take this to the modern day.

awesome

 

[Deleted member 67076]

Regarding large scale conquest, I would not find it plausible in this Byzantine timeline. Not because they don't have the military firepower to do it, but because the state's style of conquest isn't exactly geared towards large scale absorption of polities. One thing I've noticed is that for the most part the ERE tended to, uh, for lack of a better terminology "wipe the slate clean" when it entered new areas, often times breaking local elites and replacing them with Byzantine settlers and the military administrators.

We see this in the Balkans, where Greeks from Anatolia are brought into Slavic lands after the military clears them out. This goes against what many empires do, where in which they leave local administrative and elite structures in tact, just subduing them and trying to assimilate the elites.

This sort of ethnic cleansing/land reform/administrative upheaval isn't good for taking over huge swaths of land, and thus any conquests would have to be done piecemeal. The events of this timeline, what with the siege mentality after the Fourth Crusade and the OTL shift towards ethnic nationalism in the Late Empire, would just reinforce this.

Therefore, trying to eat Egypt would just not really work. And well, nor would Egypt or Iran let them do that.

I just thought you didn't like the Eastern Reconquest trope tbh. I can understand not enjoying how AAoM achieved its ends in the regions.
I would love to see the more mercantile Byzantium we have in this timeline focusing on becoming more secular - and more tolerant. Outright Muslim themes, but an official policy of peaceful conversion, with a reverse Jizya on those NOT in the army, that seems about the limit IMO, without some serious incidents.

This sounds way too nice and human rights-y for the ERE.

Possibly, but Sov said earlier in this thread that not only would the Rhomans not conquer Egypt, but this lack of conquests would drive the Rhomans to develop their manufacturing sector, to thier longer-term profit.

Part of it is that, part of it is also Russia serving as a rentier state/external market and also part of it is the Empire getting a really good credit score, sort of like an Eastern Netherlands.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

This sounds way too nice and human rights-y for the ERE.

In all seriousness though, enjoying the trope-breaking.

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Part of it is that, part of it is also Russia serving as a rentier state/external market and also part of it is the Empire getting a really good credit score, sort of like an Eastern Netherlands.

Squee! I like the Dutch!

 

[Gukpard]

Byzantium we have in this timeline focusing on becoming more secular - and more tolerant.

Nein, not no, não non, nyet and Nope, desagreed, voted down, refused and all other adjectives that mean no present in the english language :v

Jokes apart, the orthodoxy is the only christian denomination that never had been reformed, they follow the same theological doctrine since the formation of their church (and they are very proud of it)

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Nein, not no, não non, nyet and Nope, desagreed, voted down, refused and all other adjectives that mean no present in the english language :v

Jokes apart, the orthodoxy is the only christian denomination that never had been reformed, they follow the same theological doctrine since the formation of their church (and they are very proud of it)

Yes, In Our Timeline, not In This Timeline. Also, since when did an expression of desire on my part become a statement of fact? Just because things happened one way for Orthodoxy IRL, doesn't mean that it will happen here.

 

[Gukpard]

Orthodoxy IRL, doesn't mean that it will happen here.

Actually it does mean, if they never reformed, why would they reform in this TL? One of the (many) reasons that they use to claim that they are the "true" christian sect is because they do follow the same theological doctrine since their creation. We can expect a lot of things to chance in this TL, but not the orthodoxy