Renovation: An Eastern Roman Timeline

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Could Timur have realistically conquered Beijing?In my opinion it's a bit too far.I think it's more likely that after initial successes(which I think is still plausible),he'd be able to conquer Guanzhong(the area around Chang'an/Xi'an) but get bottled up in that region and then defeated.The area of Guanzhong is famous for being surrounded by narrow mountain passes and Ming troops could have contained the situation by entrenching in places such as the Tong Pass.
 
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Ah, so we do see Shiites take Persia. As a matter of fact, the Qara (and Aq) Qoyunlu were also Shiite, so this could well be a Shiism wank in Persia and the Turkic lands.

Arab Sunnis vs. non-Arab Shiites would be rather interesting.

Hope Rome isn't crippled too much by the upcoming war; the last time an Emperor called on Italian aid The City was sacked, after all....
 
Wouldn't a storm be ASB?

Last I checked, wind wasn't extraterrestrial in nature. In fact, if anything it's intraterrestrial in nature. A storm is Subterranean Space Bats.

But I don't think it's unlikely, a storm would be poor writing but in no way unrealistic. He wouldn't be the first man to die at sea, especially that particular sea.
 

Deleted member 67076

@Sov! You never disappoint!
Thanks!
Ten bucks says he drowns in the Tyrrhenian sea.
Ha!

Could Timur have realistically conquered Beijing?In my opinion it's a bit too far.I think it's more likely that after initial successes(which I think is still plausible),he'd be able to conquer Guangzhong(the area around Chang'an/Xi'an) but get bottled up in that region and then defeated.The area of Guangzhong is famous for being surrounded by narrow mountain passes and Ming troops could have contained the situation by entrenching in places such as the Tong Pass.

I mostly felt the same way- but I'll (try to halfheartedly) justify an attack on Beijing by pointing out in the 1440s the Mongols did see success against the Ming despite being more divided and decentralized than before (and the Ming having more guns). At the same time, Beijing would still be under construction and its defences wouldn't (probably) be as good as they would later be. Here, the difference is there's reinforcement, another good general, and a bit of luck. And then the Hongwu emperor would have been recently dead, possibly causing some trouble. Again, possibly.

Probably won't matter as the Mongols and Timurids have been neutralized effectively after being cornered.

Ah, so we do see Shiites take Persia. As a matter of fact, the Qara (and Aq) Qoyunlu were also Shiite, so this could well be a Shiism wank in Persia and the Turkic lands.

Arab Sunnis vs. non-Arab Shiites would be rather interesting.
Oh, I didn't know both where Shi'a. :D

Hope Rome isn't crippled too much by the upcoming war; the last time an Emperor called on Italian aid The City was sacked, after all....
Aye, but this time we don't have the Angeloi in charge. And Rome has guns!
 
Quite good the deal that Timur made and the break-up of his empire was quite entertaining (and good for Egypt to do so well).

Who got the power once Costantine fled? (I don't really see him retaking the throne leading a genoese army).

Rhomania will manage to exploit the situation in Anatolia or this Costantine situation will keep them on their toes?
 
Thanks!

Ha!



I mostly felt the same way- but I'll (try to halfheartedly) justify an attack on Beijing by pointing out in the 1440s the Mongols did see success against the Ming despite being more divided and decentralized than before (and the Ming having more guns). At the same time, Beijing would still be under construction and its defences wouldn't (probably) be as good as they would later be. Here, the difference is there's reinforcement, another good general, and a bit of luck. And then the Hongwu emperor would have been recently dead, possibly causing some trouble. Again, possibly.

Probably won't matter as the Mongols and Timurids have been neutralized effectively after being cornered.


Oh, I didn't know both where Shi'a. :D


Aye, but this time we don't have the Angeloi in charge. And Rome has guns!
The Mongols are a different thing than the Timurids,and the Timurids are attacking in a different direction.Another thing is that,the Mongols will likely be joining the Timurids in the west whether than launch a direct attack on Beijing.As I've mentioned,it's likely that Xi'an/Chang'an gets captured than Beijing being the one that did.If you are attacking from the West,there are a good number of passes in Guanzhong you need to bypass before you can reach either the central plains or anywhere near Beijing.I can assure you that these passes are fortified even in peace time.It's highly unlikely they will just break.
 
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Deleted member 67076

Quite good the deal that Timur made and the break-up of his empire was quite entertaining (and good for Egypt to do so well).
Glad you enjoyed!

Who got the power once Costantine fled? (I don't really see him retaking the throne leading a genoese army).
That will be revealed next time. Dont want to give away spoilers.

Rhomania will manage to exploit the situation in Anatolia or this Costantine situation will keep them on their toes?
A bit of both. Genoese war tactics, like that of Venice aim for quick, decisive blows and strangulation of transport routes. So it really depends on how the war goes, and how troops in Anatolia react to their situation.

I should note its not like the Beyliks have it any easier- Karaman and whatever arises from the ashes of Timur's corpse are going to have to deal with massive changes in power dynamics and adapt to that. Its going to change where most of their attention is.

The Mongols are a different thing than the Timurids,and the Timurids are attacking in a different direction.Another thing is that,the Mongols will likely be joining the Timurids in the west whether than launch a direct attack on Beijing.As I've mentioned,it's likely that Xi'an/Chang'an gets captured than Beijing being the one that did.If you are attacking from the West,there are a good number of passes in Guanzhong you need to bypass before you can reach either the central plains or anywhere near Beijing.I can assure you that these passes are fortified even in peace time.It's highly unlikely they will just break.
Well I'm convinced. Chang'an is the breaking point.
 
Oh, I didn't know both where Shi'a. :D


Aye, but this time we don't have the Angeloi in charge. And Rome has guns!

1.) They were; the Ak Koylunu were also interesting in that they, according to both Wikipedia and a CivIV mod, acted like statesmen instead of just Warlords.

2.) Wow.
 
Glad you enjoyed!


That will be revealed next time. Dont want to give away spoilers.


A bit of both. Genoese war tactics, like that of Venice aim for quick, decisive blows and strangulation of transport routes. So it really depends on how the war goes, and how troops in Anatolia react to their situation.

I should note its not like the Beyliks have it any easier- Karaman and whatever arises from the ashes of Timur's corpse are going to have to deal with massive changes in power dynamics and adapt to that. Its going to change where most of their attention is.


Well I'm convinced. Chang'an is the breaking point.
By the way,how large was Timue's eastern expeditionary force?
 

Deleted member 67076

By the way,how large was Timue's eastern expeditionary force?

I want to say, around ~40-~70,000 people- general the size of Timurid armies from what I've read (which the numbers give such a huge variance in size I don't know what to trust.) They're all frequently portrayed as large from my sources, so I'm going to assume at least 35,000 which is a large medieval army. But then again steppe nomads are masters are mobilizing entire segments of society to boost their numbers, and this time period would have had already large amounts of nomadic peoples in Iran, Mesopotamia and Anatolia. These of course would be recruited at some point on the ride east, bolstering the numbers up.

I really want to give a concrete number, but its very difficult. At the very least, I'd assume ~60K. But thats also leaning rather high. This would be Timur's own contingent, in addition to whatever the Oirats would bring to the table which raises that number up quite a bit. (Dunno about late Mongol armies however)

Interestingly enough, these numbers would have been boosted by female light cavalry. Yep, Timur was for all his faults, progressive on women's rights. :p
 
I want to say, around ~40-~70,000 people- general the size of Timurid armies from what I've read (which the numbers give such a huge variance in size I don't know what to trust.) They're all frequently portrayed as large from my sources, so I'm going to assume at least 35,000 which is a large medieval army. But then again steppe nomads are masters are mobilizing entire segments of society to boost their numbers, and this time period would have had already large amounts of nomadic peoples in Iran, Mesopotamia and Anatolia. These of course would be recruited at some point on the ride east, bolstering the numbers up.

I really want to give a concrete number, but its very difficult. At the very least, I'd assume ~60K. But thats also leaning rather high. This would be Timur's own contingent, in addition to whatever the Oirats would bring to the table which raises that number up quite a bit. (Dunno about late Mongol armies however)

Interestingly enough, these numbers would have been boosted by female light cavalry. Yep, Timur was for all his faults, progressive on women's rights. :p

I don't think you need to give a concrete number, in-story at least. If you want a "canon" 2tru4u Timurid army strength that's fine I guess, but I don't think it's really important.

The reason I say this is that it seems every single army at every single battle in these time periods have variances in size depending on the source. We really can't get an exact figure nailed down for something so far in the past, which is why you always see these enormous ranges from a compilation of sources.

In story I think it makes more sense to say something like "most historians accept that Timurids strength in the West numbered around 70,000" or "sources range from 55,000 to 85,000, with most falling in the middle." Etc.

Anyway, still a fantastic timeline and still reading with interest.
 

Deleted member 67076

I don't think you need to give a concrete number, in-story at least. If you want a "canon" 2tru4u Timurid army strength that's fine I guess, but I don't think it's really important.

The reason I say this is that it seems every single army at every single battle in these time periods have variances in size depending on the source. We really can't get an exact figure nailed down for something so far in the past, which is why you always see these enormous ranges from a compilation of sources.

In story I think it makes more sense to say something like "most historians accept that Timurids strength in the West numbered around 70,000" or "sources range from 55,000 to 85,000, with most falling in the middle." Etc.
Good ideas. :) I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to minor details, thus when I can't get a concrete number (read: always) it gets really annoying. Estimates always smooth that out.

Anyway, still a fantastic timeline and still reading with interest.
My thanks!
 
Good ideas. :) I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to minor details, thus when I can't get a concrete number (read: always) it gets really annoying. Estimates always smooth that out.


My thanks!

Didn't modern estimates believe that Timur fielded an army of 140,000 at Ankara?I would assume that if the expeditionary force was this large,they could indeed stir up the problems you described in China when assisted by the Northern Yuan.If not,I am not sure they would be a challenge for the Ming at all.I mean,the Ming could raise an army of over one million soldiers.
 
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Deleted member 67076

Didn't modern estimates believe that Timur fielded an army of 140,000 at Ankara?I would assume that if the expeditionary force was this large,they could indeed stir up the problems you described in China when assisted by the Northern Yuan.If not,I am not sure they would be a challenge for the Ming at all.I mean,the Ming could raise an army of over one million soldiers.

I'll be honest- I don't know. I had to start from scratch while tackling the Timurids, and there's plenty of blindspots. I'm probably completely wrong for my estimates (since I'm basing the values of 'large' and 'small' from the perspective of Western European and Caliphate army sizes in the High Middle Ages, since that's where I'm most familiar with. Which, I'll be the first to admit is a terrible idea. Don't do this timeline writers) so forgive me on that one.

I'll take your word on that and raise the numbers to a more satisfactory amount. Irregardless, it doesn't change the final outcome (I hope) of an invasion and rallying of enemy forces into one group, a campaign south to eliminate the new dynasty, capturing a couple major cities, massive sacking in the country side, attempts at depopulation and property damage before being cornered and beaten in a mountain pass.

------

That aside here's a map I've been working on that describes the major states in the post Timur situation. I've finally been learning how to GIMP, and this is essentially my first map with the software. (and any software outside of MSpaint) Hopefully it looks prettier than before.

What do you guys think? Continue with GIMP or back to paint?

Uc1XoKz.jpg


Also do note: That orange you see is Genoa, which has been really busy as Romania moves into Anatolia (and the decade's before) trying to expand everywhere so they can rule all the trade. Timur's activities in the Levant and Egypt have (obviously) majorly disrupted trade here, causing an economic depression in Genoa, who's despite trying to be a great power and entering every European market they can get in*, still gets about a good 60% of their income in dominating the Eastern Mediterranean trade shipping.

In response, they've had to make up in a very Genoese way, namely plunder and conquest so that domestic taxes can cover the budget until trade picks backup. Candia and Cyprus, two very easy targets were early up on the list. Naturally this pisses off Romania, and war breaks out. But Constantine isn't in charge any more.

*Note: As you can imagine by knocking their major rival out as a meaningful competitor nearly 60 years ago, Genoa by now would have been undisputed master of the Eastern Med trade along with being dominant in the Silk Road trade via the Black Sea. Following decades of that monopoly combined with new technologies and financial innovations in banking, Genoese patricians would seek to expand fortunes by moving into new markets. The obvious one would be starting in the Western Med, and then the Bay of Biscay and north. By 1410, they've have wrested the majority of shipping away from Aragon in a series of conflicts, along with taking bits of territory as forward bases (as Venice set the example for). But at the same time as the conflicts with Genoa is happening, the Genoese have had their ships move into the traditional Dutch markets in the Channel and have begun to move in as far the Baltic Sea trade.

Genoa is not to be trifled with.
 
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