AHCWI : How Could Prussia Create A Notable Colonial Empire Before Unification of Germany?

AltoRegnant

AltoRegnant

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the German colonial empire was... lacking, compared to the other European big boys. Both in size and thus prestige and resources, and in profitability. So, I'm curious as to how Prussia, and thus any subsequent germanys, could create a stronger overseas empire prior to unification.

The way I see it, these are the main factors limiting their prospects:
  • no reliable way to get into the north sea until very late, meaning they were reliant on either good relations with Denmark or a disconnected area in the far west of Germany that the dutch could probably seize anytime they weren't being invaded by France
  • being pulled to the east and south due to issues with Poland and later Austria
  • limited prospects in the New World due to either having to oust some very powerful empires, or then having to deal with the Monroe Doctrine
  • then everything that prevented established colonial powers from taking hold in Africa or Asia before the 19th century
considering everything, I can see why Berlin wasn't interested in overseas gains until they had united Germany and thus had little better to do with their militarism. But I'm still curious what people think prussia's potential is here. Personally, I think that if they had better access to the North Sea (maybe they somehow gain Shlesvig-Holstein early? some territory in Lower Saxony/Hannover?), they would actually be in a pretty good spot after the decline of Poland.
 

Nivek

KingOnTheEdge said:
Huh. I knew about the Brandenburg gold coast (mostly cause they sold it to the Dutch) but the others are news
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They Tried but lack of good ports and Coast and too much affair on europe means Colonies don't worth it, few worth it even(DEI, India,etc)
 

riggerrob

Prolong the life of the Hanseatic League and have them compete on Atlantic Trade after 1500 ... perhaps selling North Atlantic fish to slave plantations in the Caribbean? Along the way, Prussia builds more city-states along the coast of Africa and the Americas.
 
Comte de Dordogne

Comte de Dordogne

I have an idea, Hanover does not enter into a personal union with Great Britain but with Prussia. Prussia now has better access to the sea. Now we need leaders motivated by the search for a colonial empire (and find a place in the sun).
 
AltoRegnant

AltoRegnant

Comte de Dordogne said:
I have an idea, Hanover does not enter into a personal union with Great Britain but with Prussia. Prussia now has better access to the sea. Now we need leaders motivated by the search for a colonial empire (and find a place in the sun).
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well, Frederick William was particularly interested in overseas expedition, hence the bits Brandenburg did grab were during his reign. so if he were somehow able to secure the principality of calenburg (the predecessor to Hannover) that might work. hannover itself wasn't established until 1692, and personal union with anyone until the 1730s, a bit late for a new world empire or even much more opportunity than otl
 

funnyhat

KingOnTheEdge said:
View attachment 597659
the German colonial empire was... lacking, compared to the other European big boys. Both in size and thus prestige and resources, and in profitability.
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It wasn't that small ; only the UK and France had significantly larger empires.

This also was an era in which empires were not that profitable, in general. For example, the savage policies of the Congo Free State were adopted because the colony was not making a profit at first. So if you want to see a country make a lot of money from its colonies in this era, well...
 

Kellan Sullivan

Comte de Dordogne said:
I have an idea, Hanover does not enter into a personal union with Great Britain but with Prussia. Prussia now has better access to the sea. Now we need leaders motivated by the search for a colonial empire (and find a place in the sun).
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Not gonna happen. Hannover and Prussia both ran on Salic Law, even before the Hannoverian electorate was established. Now...Friedrich Wilhelm tried to get his younger son from his first marriage, Ludwig, acknowledged as "heir" to William III of Orange and then, when the Electress Sophia was dithering, William III threatened to bypass the Hannoverian line entirely and leave England and the Netherlands both the Prussia. Now...beyond the fact that Dutch Law prevented someone born outside of the Netherlands taking power, either of these could work, but it might create a Prusso-Dutch Union with colonies rather than a Prussian Colonial Empire
 

raharris1973

There's keeping the Brandenburger colonies somehow, and then growing in the period between the start of the American Revolution and the start of the French Revolutionary Wars as a neutral power. High chance of colonies being occupied/contact lost during Napoleonic wars, but decent chance of most being returned at the peace conference. A Caribbean island or two should be manageable.

For colonies eventually sporting some decent-sized settler populations (eventually), I've written up some stuff in the past where basically they are the first/most persistent in certain areas of the colonial periphery that are far enough outside the core zones of colonial competition that they don't get permanently confiscated. Areas I had in mind included Ruperts Land, because of its remoteness and comparative lateness in North America, and New Zealand, because of its lateness to be claimed.

Prussian colonial revival, from the Caribbean to New Zealand

Warning – this timeline is heavily protected by a butterfly net into the 20thcentury 1763 – Britain awards Prussia with – Miquelon (with French retaining the more populous St. Pierre) with a share of related fishing rights & awards Prussia Guadaloupe, (but not Martinique, which remains...
www.alternatehistory.com

https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...lonies-in-north-america.440064/#post-16755320 - post #5

https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...for-different-countries.449597/#post-17440719. - post #9

raharris1973 said:
Brandenburger (later Prussian) Hudson's Bay-

Hudson's Bay/Rupert's land was first colonized during the late 17th century era when Brandenburg was trying out colonial projects (they finally gave up on the last of them in the 1710s or 1720s).

It was under British auspices in OTL, but under the pioneering guidance of two Frenchmen, Grossiliers and Radisson, who went free agent after the authorities in New France tried to sideline them.

In the ATL, instead of making their way to Boston after being pissed off, they make their way to to New Amsterdam and Europe, looking for investors and backing.

They happen to find their first takers in Brandenburg.

Brandenburg charters some voyages a company and some trading posts up around Hudson's Bay. The colony is under the Brandenburgian Elector's authority, although its staff and personnel are multinational (English, French, Dutch, Scandinavians, of course Amerindians are on staff in addition to Brandenburg Germans).

However, unlike other colonies, Brandenburg-Prussia holds on to Rupert's land through the 18th century. While it has value, it is remote enough that strong, capable powers like England and France never make taking or holding the land a priority in this century. By the late 18th century, the personnel at the outposts are proportionately more Prussian. More of the hinterland is explored, and by the 1790s there are some attempts to help food self-sufficiency through grain farming in some of the prairie lands of the Hudson Bay watershed. Post-Napoleonic wars, the population from Prussia and other Zollverein states in the territory expands further, and Prussia advances a claim (in competition with Spain, Russia, Britain and the US) to the Oregon country.

Prussia pulls decisively ahead in terms of numbers of outposts and pioneers in Rupert's land and then the Oregon country through the 1830s and 1840s....
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The Undead Martyr

Maybe have them inherit Burgundy or Holland, or maybe Denmark as a wildcard? It wijpdnt really be Prussia given the probable POD in the 1400s but Brandenburg (Prussia) is not really in a position to engage in colonial ventures beyond what they did OTL. Nabbing Pomerania sooner would help.
 

pompejus

Kellan Sullivan said:
Now...beyond the fact that Dutch Law prevented someone born outside of the Netherlands taking power, either of these could work, but it might create a Prusso-Dutch Union with colonies rather than a Prussian Colonial Empire
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Besides the fact that Dutch republican politics didn't work that way (after Willem III's dead the Dutch decided they prefered no stadholder over the Dutch candidate Willem II picked, so there was a second stadholderless period), I do believe that at that point in time the Dutch republic would be the more important part of the union and it would basicly be the Netherlands, backed up by the Prussian militairy, instead of Prussia with the Dutch coast and colonies.
 
Old1812

Old1812

While a substantial Prussian empire is very unlikely, I think a Thirty Years War POD I'm considering may be able to help somewhat. There, Ferdinand of Austria (OTL Emperor Ferdinand II) is murdered and Vienna temporarily falls to the Bohemian rebels. In a scenario like this where Brandenburg avoids the devastation of the Thirty Years War, it is possible, if not likely, that they may set their sights on acquiring possessions in Africa, the Americas, or possibly India.
 
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