AH Discussion: The Sun Never Sets
- Thread starter Kalki
- Start date
Anyways here is the new update as promised... 
The Sun Never Sets - A British Raj TL
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Update #1
Excerpt from “Lord Ripon & the Act that wasn’t” an article by Dr. B. C. Banerjee ,
The Hindu, Calcutta Edition, Volume 11, No. 300, Monday, October 27th, 1997, Calcutta, Bengal Province, Dominion of India.
“.. The Illbert bill, or as some like to name it ‘the bill that wasn’t’ [1] is arguably one of the most important bills in the empire never to be passed. A hundred and fourteen years after the matter was discreetly put out to pasture, the bill continues to be a matter of debate amongst historians.
… Lord Ripon contemplated introducing the bill in 1883, which, some would say ambitiously, aimed to equate the legal status of Indian native and British justices in the Indian Empire. It provided for prosecution of Her Majesty’s subjects of British origin by Indian native judges. Naturally this was opposed by the British and Anglo-Indian elite. They were apprehensive of being prosecuted by native judges over exploitation of the native workforce in the plantations.
Lord Ripon in consultation with his subordinate Courtenay Illbert, after whom the bill was named, displayed much desired political acumen in refraining from pursuing the bill further and shelving it for later. [2] This helped soothe over many ruffled feathers in the British and Anglo-Indian community, and arguably saved his future political career from certain ruin.
… The mainstream view amongst modern historians is that perhaps this bill, if passed, would have brought about a much earlier acceptance of Indian self-rule. By equating the ‘ruler and the ruled’ it would have brought the Rule of Law and the Rights of Man into the British political consciousness with regards to the Indian subjects and the Indian Empire. [3] Some of the historians with more radical views herald this bill as a stepping stone to an earlier rise of Indian political organizations and a more decisive shift to demanding complete independence from the Crown.
However it could be possible that both these views may be flawed analyses of the course of events to follow. Either argument might be an oversimplification of the political and social climate of the Indian Empire in the later years of the Victorian Era. Also, and perhaps more importantly, both analyses adhere to a very strict framework deriving their conclusion of what 'could have been' on the foundation of what 'has been' in our history. Maybe they should broaden the view and analyse the story from new perspectives. History, after all, is not set stone and is rewritten more often that most believe.
Firstly, Lord Ripon, who back then had the reputation of being an out-spoken liberal, perhaps could have had his political reputation irreparably damaged by an organized political backlash from the colonial elite. [4] History stands witness to the immensely important role Lord Ripon had later once returned to the House of Lords, in ensuring that the Indian Empire was much better governed.
… Secondly, as the radicals claim, facing a strong, well organised and well-coordinated political opposition would have galvanised the then nascent Indian political groups into actual political parties; potentially leading to a much earlier rise of political activism in India.What remains debatable, is whether such a ‘decisive shift’ to a demand for self-rule was bound to happen. [5]
… And lastly, perhaps most overlooked is the very divisive effect this law could have had on the elite. This stems from the near unanimous support the bill had when it was first conceived among the Indian native elite, Moved this comma. and that was mirrored by an equally entrenched opposition to the bill among the British and Anglo-Indians in India, and even back in Parliament. Such a divisive bill would have surely created a very polarising debate centred on it, and could have forced many of the supporters of reform of Indian administration in the British Parliament to choose sides. Clearly, such a divide would have lessened support for the momentous reforms enacted over the next few decades. It would be to lose the forest for the trees.
…In the end, perhaps it was for the best that we can conclude on the 170th birth anniversary of Lord Ripon that ‘the bill that wasn’t’ was not for the better.”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpt from ‘The Indian Empire, Volume II, 7th edition’ – National Council for Education, IX Standard history textbook, NCE Publications, Bombay, Bombay Province, 2007.
“… For the remainder of his tenure as viceroy Lord Ripon dedicated himself to implementing more pressingly needed reforms such as the overhaul of the Indian Famine Code. His complete work on the matter is beyond the scope of this textbook, however it was vital in ensuring a more robust response by the Indian administration to the famines that plagued the subcontinent in the latter half of the 19th century. His work in crafting more robust famine relief measures into the Indian Famine Code have helped saved millions of lives in the last days of the century. [6]
... Perhaps even more importantly Lord Ripon’s work on the Indian Famine Code made him realise that one of the important factors in the spate of famines in the subcontinent was not some Malthusian catastrophe or scarcity of food, but rather the abysmal administration of the Raj. The administrators were in denial of how the combination of cash crop cultivation combined with the wholesale destruction of the cottage industries, most notably weaving, had left the Indian populace impoverished and destitute.
… These factors combined with the laissez faire approach to macroeconomics in the sub-continent had left the masses very vulnerable to the depredation of life at the hands of abject poverty.”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpt from “The Great Game” by Dr. J. B. Stuart, Ph.D., 1987.
“Lord Ripon was succeeded in 1884 at the end of his fairly successful tenure as Viceroy and Governor –General of India by Lord Dufferin.
… Frederick Hamilton-Temple-Blackwood, 1st Marquess of Dufferin and Ava KP GCB GCSI GCMG GCIE PC, known to us today as Lord Dufferin was born on 21st June 1826. [7] He was instrumental in ensuring that peace prevailed between the two Great powers in the final chapters of the Great Game.
… Previously having served as Her Majesty’s Ambassador to the Imperial Russia from 1879 to 1881, his skill as an able diplomat were put to the test soon after he was appointed the Viceroy of India.
… The Russians had steadily expanded south into Central Asia reaching down till Merv in 1884. On the 30th of March, 1885 a Russian contingent under the command of General Alexander Komarov marched down from Merv and towards the Oxus river ad Balkh region then in Afghanistan.
The Russians were met by a force of Afghan irregulars of about 600 men at a crossing over the Kushk River. The Russians demanded that the Afghan troops stand down and vacate what was ‘Russian territory’. The Afghans refused and took positions. They were unwilling to push against Russians given that this could have precipitated a war between Afghanistan and Russia. The lack of communication with Kabul was not helping with the situation either.
Commanding the Afghan irregulars was Ghwas al-Din Khan, a second cousin of the then ruler of Afghanistan Abdur Rahman Khan. By all contemporary accounts he was a competent commander. He had arrayed his troops on a ridgeline a few hundred yards from the where the Russians had crossed the river and blocked their path.
The Russians knew that with their backs to the river were in a very precarious position. An afghan sally could have driven them back into the river in disarray. What they did not know was how reluctant the Afghan commanders were to committing to the offensive and starting a war. This uncertainty about the willingness to wage war was that which lead to war in the end.
So at 2am the same night, General Komarov ordered his troops to move silently towards the afghan position and assault it. The result was that the Afghans were taken by complete surprise. They were wiped out to the last man. When dawn broke the bluff was littered with 600 dead Afghans and 40 Russians. The Russians had won a decisive victory as was with every military expedition into the treacherous mountains and dry valleys of the Graveyard of Empires.[8]
Unfortunately for General Komarov this was only the beginning of his ill-fated expedition.
…At the time the battle unfolded Abdur Rahman Khan, the Ruler of Afghanistan, was in Rawalpindi in British India (now Pakistan) in a meeting with the Indian Viceroy when he got word about the battle. His cousin was dead. He may not have been very close to his cousin but blood is blood nonetheless. Family, clan and honour are the three things a Pashtun has and The King of the Pashtun had to avenge the blood of his family to preserve his honour.
So an undeclared state of war now existed between the Russian Empire and Afghanistan at the height of the Great Game between Britain and Russia. The situation called for the most delicate approach.
And this is where Lord Dufferin comes into the picture one last time to end the Great Game and chart a course for history to follow well into the 20th century.”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] The alpha-PoD in this TL. OTL Lord Ripon pushes for the Bill.
[2] ITTL he sticks to his guns.
[3] I highly doubt that could ever happen. Not with a Liberal party dying out as it did OTL.
[4] Which actually did happen OTL. And resulted in the premature death of Lord Ripon’s quite remarkable political career
[5] OTL such a shift did happen when the Indian political parties, namely the Indian National Congress realized it was necessary to ensure that the British administration was loathe to reform and change the status quo.
[6] Massive famines in the late 19th and early 20th century routinely killed off several million Indians. It was such a common occurrence that the administrators really thought nothing of it. They just assumed it was a Malthusian catastrophe similar to what happened in Ireland. Social Darwinism can be scary.
[7] Born in Florence, Tuscany. He was well travelled and even wrote a bestseller travel book Letters form High Latitudes. He was described IOTL as “imaginative, sympathetic, warm-hearted, and gloriously versatile." He was an effective leader in Lebanon, Canada and India, averted war with Russia, and annexed Burma. He was careless of money but charming in high society in three continents. In the end he was bankrupted when a mining firm he invested in went under, after swindling investors.
[8] OTL battle was very similar except that the dead didn’t include a relative of the King and such Abdur Rahman was free to label the battle as a minor border skirmish and sweep it under the rug so that the diplomats could handle the dirty work of preventing the two powers from coming to blows over Afghanistan yet again. Now there is blood to be repaid.
The Sun Never Sets - A British Raj TL
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Update #1
Excerpt from “Lord Ripon & the Act that wasn’t” an article by Dr. B. C. Banerjee ,
The Hindu, Calcutta Edition, Volume 11, No. 300, Monday, October 27th, 1997, Calcutta, Bengal Province, Dominion of India.
“.. The Illbert bill, or as some like to name it ‘the bill that wasn’t’ [1] is arguably one of the most important bills in the empire never to be passed. A hundred and fourteen years after the matter was discreetly put out to pasture, the bill continues to be a matter of debate amongst historians.
… Lord Ripon contemplated introducing the bill in 1883, which, some would say ambitiously, aimed to equate the legal status of Indian native and British justices in the Indian Empire. It provided for prosecution of Her Majesty’s subjects of British origin by Indian native judges. Naturally this was opposed by the British and Anglo-Indian elite. They were apprehensive of being prosecuted by native judges over exploitation of the native workforce in the plantations.
Lord Ripon in consultation with his subordinate Courtenay Illbert, after whom the bill was named, displayed much desired political acumen in refraining from pursuing the bill further and shelving it for later. [2] This helped soothe over many ruffled feathers in the British and Anglo-Indian community, and arguably saved his future political career from certain ruin.
… The mainstream view amongst modern historians is that perhaps this bill, if passed, would have brought about a much earlier acceptance of Indian self-rule. By equating the ‘ruler and the ruled’ it would have brought the Rule of Law and the Rights of Man into the British political consciousness with regards to the Indian subjects and the Indian Empire. [3] Some of the historians with more radical views herald this bill as a stepping stone to an earlier rise of Indian political organizations and a more decisive shift to demanding complete independence from the Crown.
However it could be possible that both these views may be flawed analyses of the course of events to follow. Either argument might be an oversimplification of the political and social climate of the Indian Empire in the later years of the Victorian Era. Also, and perhaps more importantly, both analyses adhere to a very strict framework deriving their conclusion of what 'could have been' on the foundation of what 'has been' in our history. Maybe they should broaden the view and analyse the story from new perspectives. History, after all, is not set stone and is rewritten more often that most believe.
Firstly, Lord Ripon, who back then had the reputation of being an out-spoken liberal, perhaps could have had his political reputation irreparably damaged by an organized political backlash from the colonial elite. [4] History stands witness to the immensely important role Lord Ripon had later once returned to the House of Lords, in ensuring that the Indian Empire was much better governed.
… Secondly, as the radicals claim, facing a strong, well organised and well-coordinated political opposition would have galvanised the then nascent Indian political groups into actual political parties; potentially leading to a much earlier rise of political activism in India.What remains debatable, is whether such a ‘decisive shift’ to a demand for self-rule was bound to happen. [5]
… And lastly, perhaps most overlooked is the very divisive effect this law could have had on the elite. This stems from the near unanimous support the bill had when it was first conceived among the Indian native elite, Moved this comma. and that was mirrored by an equally entrenched opposition to the bill among the British and Anglo-Indians in India, and even back in Parliament. Such a divisive bill would have surely created a very polarising debate centred on it, and could have forced many of the supporters of reform of Indian administration in the British Parliament to choose sides. Clearly, such a divide would have lessened support for the momentous reforms enacted over the next few decades. It would be to lose the forest for the trees.
…In the end, perhaps it was for the best that we can conclude on the 170th birth anniversary of Lord Ripon that ‘the bill that wasn’t’ was not for the better.”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpt from ‘The Indian Empire, Volume II, 7th edition’ – National Council for Education, IX Standard history textbook, NCE Publications, Bombay, Bombay Province, 2007.
“… For the remainder of his tenure as viceroy Lord Ripon dedicated himself to implementing more pressingly needed reforms such as the overhaul of the Indian Famine Code. His complete work on the matter is beyond the scope of this textbook, however it was vital in ensuring a more robust response by the Indian administration to the famines that plagued the subcontinent in the latter half of the 19th century. His work in crafting more robust famine relief measures into the Indian Famine Code have helped saved millions of lives in the last days of the century. [6]
... Perhaps even more importantly Lord Ripon’s work on the Indian Famine Code made him realise that one of the important factors in the spate of famines in the subcontinent was not some Malthusian catastrophe or scarcity of food, but rather the abysmal administration of the Raj. The administrators were in denial of how the combination of cash crop cultivation combined with the wholesale destruction of the cottage industries, most notably weaving, had left the Indian populace impoverished and destitute.
… These factors combined with the laissez faire approach to macroeconomics in the sub-continent had left the masses very vulnerable to the depredation of life at the hands of abject poverty.”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpt from “The Great Game” by Dr. J. B. Stuart, Ph.D., 1987.
“Lord Ripon was succeeded in 1884 at the end of his fairly successful tenure as Viceroy and Governor –General of India by Lord Dufferin.
… Frederick Hamilton-Temple-Blackwood, 1st Marquess of Dufferin and Ava KP GCB GCSI GCMG GCIE PC, known to us today as Lord Dufferin was born on 21st June 1826. [7] He was instrumental in ensuring that peace prevailed between the two Great powers in the final chapters of the Great Game.
… Previously having served as Her Majesty’s Ambassador to the Imperial Russia from 1879 to 1881, his skill as an able diplomat were put to the test soon after he was appointed the Viceroy of India.
… The Russians had steadily expanded south into Central Asia reaching down till Merv in 1884. On the 30th of March, 1885 a Russian contingent under the command of General Alexander Komarov marched down from Merv and towards the Oxus river ad Balkh region then in Afghanistan.
The Russians were met by a force of Afghan irregulars of about 600 men at a crossing over the Kushk River. The Russians demanded that the Afghan troops stand down and vacate what was ‘Russian territory’. The Afghans refused and took positions. They were unwilling to push against Russians given that this could have precipitated a war between Afghanistan and Russia. The lack of communication with Kabul was not helping with the situation either.
Commanding the Afghan irregulars was Ghwas al-Din Khan, a second cousin of the then ruler of Afghanistan Abdur Rahman Khan. By all contemporary accounts he was a competent commander. He had arrayed his troops on a ridgeline a few hundred yards from the where the Russians had crossed the river and blocked their path.
The Russians knew that with their backs to the river were in a very precarious position. An afghan sally could have driven them back into the river in disarray. What they did not know was how reluctant the Afghan commanders were to committing to the offensive and starting a war. This uncertainty about the willingness to wage war was that which lead to war in the end.
So at 2am the same night, General Komarov ordered his troops to move silently towards the afghan position and assault it. The result was that the Afghans were taken by complete surprise. They were wiped out to the last man. When dawn broke the bluff was littered with 600 dead Afghans and 40 Russians. The Russians had won a decisive victory as was with every military expedition into the treacherous mountains and dry valleys of the Graveyard of Empires.[8]
Unfortunately for General Komarov this was only the beginning of his ill-fated expedition.
…At the time the battle unfolded Abdur Rahman Khan, the Ruler of Afghanistan, was in Rawalpindi in British India (now Pakistan) in a meeting with the Indian Viceroy when he got word about the battle. His cousin was dead. He may not have been very close to his cousin but blood is blood nonetheless. Family, clan and honour are the three things a Pashtun has and The King of the Pashtun had to avenge the blood of his family to preserve his honour.
So an undeclared state of war now existed between the Russian Empire and Afghanistan at the height of the Great Game between Britain and Russia. The situation called for the most delicate approach.
And this is where Lord Dufferin comes into the picture one last time to end the Great Game and chart a course for history to follow well into the 20th century.”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] The alpha-PoD in this TL. OTL Lord Ripon pushes for the Bill.
[2] ITTL he sticks to his guns.
[3] I highly doubt that could ever happen. Not with a Liberal party dying out as it did OTL.
[4] Which actually did happen OTL. And resulted in the premature death of Lord Ripon’s quite remarkable political career
[5] OTL such a shift did happen when the Indian political parties, namely the Indian National Congress realized it was necessary to ensure that the British administration was loathe to reform and change the status quo.
[6] Massive famines in the late 19th and early 20th century routinely killed off several million Indians. It was such a common occurrence that the administrators really thought nothing of it. They just assumed it was a Malthusian catastrophe similar to what happened in Ireland. Social Darwinism can be scary.
[7] Born in Florence, Tuscany. He was well travelled and even wrote a bestseller travel book Letters form High Latitudes. He was described IOTL as “imaginative, sympathetic, warm-hearted, and gloriously versatile." He was an effective leader in Lebanon, Canada and India, averted war with Russia, and annexed Burma. He was careless of money but charming in high society in three continents. In the end he was bankrupted when a mining firm he invested in went under, after swindling investors.
[8] OTL battle was very similar except that the dead didn’t include a relative of the King and such Abdur Rahman was free to label the battle as a minor border skirmish and sweep it under the rug so that the diplomats could handle the dirty work of preventing the two powers from coming to blows over Afghanistan yet again. Now there is blood to be repaid.
Saphroneth
Banned
Attachments (images on your computer) or hotlinks (images online)?So yeah i am having a bit of a problem trying to figure out hinsert images, anyone have any idea? can you please show me how too... Sorry
PM me with which and I'll explain.