A Glorious Union or America: the New Sparta

This is going to be interesting. I can see Lincoln falling out of step with public opinion. Kearny and the Radicals (to steal a book title) will want to punish the South to one degree or another. If there are further "atrocities" that will only get worse. If Lincoln tries to ditch VP Hamlin, a radical, for a Southern Democrat like Johnson, I can see a real challenge from either within the Republican Party or from a third party candidate representing radical sentiments. Even if Lincoln sticks with Hamlin and stomps on the Democrats (likely Andrew Johnson or Horatio Seymour) in Nov 64, I can still see him and his concilatory instincts putting him in direct conflict with a Radical dominated Congress.

Lincoln will be lucky to come out of this with his OTL reputation intact.

Lincoln was also possibly the best politician America had to that date. He was also immensely popular from what I've read, and if he isn't assassinated there will be fights I have no doubt but don't count him out just yet.

Do you think he'll still be pro-reconciliation rather than taking a harder line because of the perceived war crimes of the rebels? I would hate to think of Lincoln having to ally with Democrats to push a soft reconstruction because he wouldn't want to pursue the radical plans.

Actually Kearny's limited plan for reconstruction - hurt the policital, military and plantation classes; execution; proscription etc while taking no action against the "people" or the rank and file might just be Lincoln's saviour. Hmm. Very interesting. Am very much looking for to the elections.
 
Do you think he'll still be pro-reconciliation rather than taking a harder line because of the perceived war crimes of the rebels? I would hate to think of Lincoln having to ally with Democrats to push a soft reconstruction because he wouldn't want to pursue the radical plans.

Actually Kearny's limited plan for reconstruction - hurt the policital, military and plantation classes; execution; proscription etc while taking no action against the "people" or the rank and file might just be Lincoln's saviour. Hmm. Very interesting. Am very much looking for to the elections.

I think he would, but with his assassination we do not have a baseline for how he would conduct Reconstruction. I believe he would certainly seek justice against those commiting such heinous crimes. However he was a very pragmatic man so he might just go after the leaders as you suggest.

If I had to guess I think he would act far less aggressive than others and use Kearny and the other Radicals as a case of you deal with me on my terms or the devil(s) over there. The reverse is also true when dealing with the Radicals as he is an immensely popular and gifted President that lead the Union back together so they cannot ramrod stuff down without having to moderate some stuff or he will not support it.

However some things have been made easier for him as well. The Union forces are doing better, there are black regiments fighting alongside white units and doing very well earlier than OTL IIRC. This should help his political capital a lot. I am very curious to see where KI goes with this TL. I do hope he doesn't get assassinated...
 
Several ex-girlfriends, several ex-colleagues, the Labour MP for my constituency, Ian Paisley jr, Patrick Stewart (it wasn't my fault that my mother asked if he was Dr. Kirk from Star Wars), anyone who calls the Indian Mutiny "The First Indian War of Independance" and means it (I have abused several of these people on the interweb), Ann Widdecombe, "celebrity" chef Paul Rankin (again that was my mother's fault)...

There are probably several thousand others but thats a brief flavour...
 
Several ex-girlfriends, several ex-colleagues, the Labour MP for my constituency, Ian Paisley jr, Patrick Stewart (it wasn't my fault that my mother asked if he was Dr. Kirk from Star Wars), anyone who calls the Indian Mutiny "The First Indian War of Independance" and means it (I have abused several of these people on the interweb), Ann Widdecombe, "celebrity" chef Paul Rankin (again that was my mother's fault)...

There are probably several thousand others but thats a brief flavour...

Oh my God! For once, someone from the United Kingdom who isn't blaming Thatcher! :p
 
If Maggie had wanted me assassinated I assume I'd be dead!:eek:

Speaking of Maggie, we are all pleased (I trust) that African-Americans might do better in a Kearny-America. But if America is dominated by the military will that retard the progress of woman's rights and getting them the vote? I suspect it will.

I wonder too if prohibition politics will gain any traction in TTL?
 
I am scouting for a location for the next battle somewhere south and perhaps west of Chattanooga. Grant has discovered Magruder's bluff and is marching north on Bragg's heels to "save" Hooker. He will find Bragg and Hardee awaiting him...
Question: why would Grant march directly to Hooker to save him? If he has heard of the battle, he would know that Hooker's army is still relatively intact and is getting reinforced. Instead, have Grant move to threaten the Confederate Army's supply lines to Atlanta, find a suitable area where he can fortify and force Bragg and Hardee to attack him; this would take pressure off Hooker and catch the Confederates between the Hammer and the Anvil. This is a strategy that a number of Civil War generals (Like Stonewall Jackson) favored.
 
I suspect "saving Hooker" is just a turn of phrase. Two things:

1. Grant will probably not know about Chickamauga. He had cast off from his supply lines into Middle Alabama so his communications with the north might be intermittant or delayed.

2. Grant's orders from Kearny are to target Bragg's army. If Grant were to march on Atlanta (a very sound strategic idea) Grant might be open to accusations of disobeying orders or dodging a fight. Imagine if Hooker gets properly hammered - besieged in Chattenooga perhaps and instead of going to his aid, Grant "glory hunts" in Georgia. Grant is enough of a politican to know the Eastern General's stars are in the ascendant (reverse of OTL). He could easily find himself replaced with Hancock or Rodman or Baldy Smith perhaps.

That's why I understand why Grant might leave Magruder play acting around Montgomery and march north in Bragg's wake. He might pick up a lot of Bragg's slow moving trains or stragglers. And there may be an oppurtunity to be the hammer to Hooker's anvil, catching both Bragg and Hardee between the two in some very restrictive geography east and south of Chattenooga.
 
I suspect "saving Hooker" is just a turn of phrase. Two things:

1. Grant will probably not know about Chickamauga. He had cast off from his supply lines into Middle Alabama so his communications with the north might be intermittant or delayed.

2. Grant's orders from Kearny are to target Bragg's army. If Grant were to march on Atlanta (a very sound strategic idea) Grant might be open to accusations of disobeying orders or dodging a fight. Imagine if Hooker gets properly hammered - besieged in Chattenooga perhaps and instead of going to his aid, Grant "glory hunts" in Georgia. Grant is enough of a politican to know the Eastern General's stars are in the ascendant (reverse of OTL). He could easily find himself replaced with Hancock or Rodman or Baldy Smith perhaps.

That's why I understand why Grant might leave Magruder play acting around Montgomery and march north in Bragg's wake. He might pick up a lot of Bragg's slow moving trains or stragglers. And there may be an oppurtunity to be the hammer to Hooker's anvil, catching both Bragg and Hardee between the two in some very restrictive geography east and south of Chattenooga.
I'm not saying Grant should march on Atlanta; I.m talking about manuevering to threaten Bragg's (and Hardee's) supply lines, forcing them to go after him, thereby giving Hooker some relief and a chance to regroup. Grant may not know what happened to Hooker, but he does believe he can force the Confederates to turn to face him, weakening their forces against Hooker. I would assume he would try to establish communications with Hooker so he can coordinate his actions with Hooker accordingly.
 
Chapter Eighty Nine Before the Storm
Chapter Eighty Nine

Before the Storm

From “On the Road to Armageddon” by Hunter McCook
University of Ohio 2009

“October 30th 1864: Joseph Hooker would call it the “the longest day in American History”, Ulysses S. Grant who had fought his army all the previous day as well called it “the hardest damn couple of days of my life…of any life”, Jeff Davis would call it “the Confederacy’s Armageddon”…”

From “The War Between the States” by Otis R. Mayhew
Sword & Musket 1992

“The battles that took place on October 29th and 30th have been given many names over the years: The Battle of the Coosa, The Battles of Gadsden, Glencoe and Atalla, but the name that has stuck has been The Battle of Four Armies: the Armies of the Mississippi and the Cumberland and the Armies of Mississippi and Tennessee. It would prove to be the bloodiest battle in the Civil War…”

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Grant and his "right arm" William T. Sherman​

From "U.S. Grant - Hero of Three Wars" by John W. Eisenhower
Edison 1953

“It was October 15th before Grant realised his error. The weight of reports was too great to ignore: the force before him was small, two perhaps three divisions in size. Bragg and Magruder had bluffed him again. Grant felt the weight of his mistake and openly admitted as much to his friend Shermanwhatever the outcome it is my fault. It is all my fault…” (Sherman: A Life in Uniform). Sherman was adamant however that any failure arose purely from “the [damnable] War Department’s failure to provide sufficient cavalry; sufficient in arms and training; to act as the eyes and ears of this army”. It was an answer, or an excuse to some, that the Joint Congressional Committee on the Conduct of the War would hear again and again from the officers of both the Army of the Mississippi and the Army of the Cumberland, but they would never hear it from General Grant who made no excuses for his failure…

Grant effectively ignored Magruder’s force, having no cavalry to spare and no concerns that Magruder could or would attempt to achieve anything in his absence. Thus Grant led his whole force north (now of course minus the corps now grandly redesignated the Army of the Alabama under McClernand) in the wake of Bragg

Bragg’s forced march northwards had outdistanced several of his supply trains and had left the usual debris of a forced march in his wake, including many stragglers which Grant’s force swept up. Despite this Grant remained unsure about how far and how many days he was behind Bragg…”

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Major-General, Historian, Veterans' Leader, Senator, Vice President on two different party tickets, and surprise 22nd President, Lew Wallace would set the standard for in-depth analysis of the Civil War

From “On the Road to Armageddon” by Hunter McCook
University of Ohio 2009

“Much has been said on the subject of Grant’s direct pursuit of Bragg. At the time Grant was praised by the President, by General Hooker and by General Kearny for “going straight after the enemy with the bit between his teeth” (Kearny). However in subsequent years the question as to why Grant sought a direct confrontation in this way has been questioned.

Knowing the obvious purpose of Bragg’s march would be to join with Hardee in an attempt to overwhelm Hooker, Grant could not have hoped to catch up with Bragg prior to that joining. Grant could not then be reasonably expect to join with Hooker prior to a major engagement. Many have asserted that Grant could have manoeuvred into position, indicting the supply line between Atlanta and Bragg/Hardee. The rebels would then have to attack Grant on prepared ground of his own choosing.

Historian, civil war general and the first great chronicler of the Civil War, Lew Wallace, highlighted early the major problem with this suggestion. It may have made sound military sense but it simply was neither politic nor naturally in Grant’s nature. Grant’s orders from his new commander in chief, Phil Kearny, was to engage the enemy: to pursue and engage the enemy at every opportunity. The destruction of the enemy army was Grant’s objective not towns and cities. It was an order that accorded perfectly with Grant’s own assessment of the best way to “win” the war – defeat the rebels in the field and end their ability to resist the Union militarily.

Furthermore it was neither obvious nor logical to assume that Hooker would give battle to a superior force if he obtained sufficient warning. He may be forced to withdraw back into Tennessee or to hold up, perhaps under siege in Chattanooga. Cut off from regular contact there was no way for Grant to warn or anticipate what Hooker might do…

Furthermore the suggestion that Grant might sit in static positions, in winter, in the middle of hostile territory interdicting Confederate supply lines ignores one major problem: Grant’s own logistics. So far Grant’s army had barely touched the supplies they left Vicksburg with, living off the untouched Alabama countryside. However the territory between Chattanooga and Atlanta had been scoured for supplies for Hardee’s army for several months, and in winter, there would have been serious concerns about Grant’s ability to live off the land for any period while awaiting an attack by Bragg and Hardee…”

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General William J. Hardee did not have Bragg's confidence

From “The Life of General William J. Hardee - Teach Them How To War” by Christopher L. Pike
Bison 1965

William Hardee was not fooled by the victory that he and Bragg had won. Hooker was not crushed. He was defeated; he was withdrawing; but his army would live to fight again and who knew how soon. Yet Hardee’s superior, Bragg, was adamant. Hooker was defeated, his army’s morale crushed. They could afford to ignore him for the time being and turn on Grant who’s army was cut off from aid deep in Confederate territory. Bragg enthusiasm only increased when Hardee’s cavalry commander, Abraham Buford, brought word that Grant was on his way north…

Bragg’s Army of the Mississippi was short on everything. Food, clothing and ammunition trailed behind it in trains abandoned to Bragg’s urgency to get to Hardee before Grant recognised the danger. Hardee did his best to provide for Bragg’s men from his own stores and from those captured from Hooker’s troops but they were “but meagre and I feared that our ambitions exceeded our ability to maintain two armies in this country” (Hardee)…

Nonetheless the enthusiasm of Hardee’s own subordinates, Patrick Cleburne and Thomas J. Churchill, for Bragg’s plan induced Hardee to participate despite his qualms…”

From “Fighting Joe Hooker” by Herbert Walter
Buffalo 1999

“As the surviving commanders of the Army of the Cumberland gathered just outside Chattanooga late on October 26th they were all surprised at the lack of pursuit beyond a handful of cavalry. The full realisation the Bragg and Hardee had effected a junction and that the Army of the Cumberland had thereby been overwhelmed by superior numbers had now begun to sink in…

The question that Hooker asked, as indeed they all asked of each other, was why had the rebels not pursued them and where was Grant?...

On October 27th when Minty and Edward McCook, who led the first cavalry to rejoin the army reported that Hardee and Bragg seemed to be pulling back from Chattanooga the first realisation of what must come next hit Hooker. “Dan, they have whipped us. They think we are a busted flush and no threat for a time. Now they mean to whip Grant together and he may not be far off. We must show that Bragg that this army is neither defeated nor disheartened” (Dan Butterfield)…

Hooker’s orders went out to Thomas, Richardson and Granger. They were to get their corps, or such elements as could be made fit for battle, ready to march in a matter of days not weeks. Jefferson C. Davis Corps was to be left in Chattanooga to hold it and reform. Davis’ Corps (formerly Sheridan’s) truly was “a busted flush”…

The one thing Hooker feared most was “that Phil will think a whipping has cowed me and that I stood by and watched while Grant fought” (Butterfield)…”
 
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Dan, they have whipped us. They think we are a busted flush and no threat for a time. Now they mean to whip Grant together and he may not be far off. We must show that Bragg that this army is neither defeated nor disheartened”

I love this line. "Busted flush" sounds like something Hooker would have said and perfectly sums up what Bragg was probably thinking!
 
I keep forgetting this Union army is run by "Phil"'s mates and US Grant. Hooker, Peck, Reynolds, Richardson, Birney etc. All friends and early colleagues of Kearny. I can see Grant suspecting his replacement by a man he's not yet met might be imminent if he missteps.
 
Just read Ch 89; great chapter. I can see Lew Wallace's points about Grant's actions; as in IOTL he is focused on the enemy army. He also made an excellent point about Grant's supply situation.

A few questions:
  1. How far behind is Grant from Bragg? How long did it take him to realize Bragg has bolted?
  2. I wonder what General Magruder will do when he realizes Grant is no longer facing him but pursing Bragg?
  3. What is the relative size of the four armies at this point? Not precise numbers, just an idea of each army's relative manpower.
 
Ulysses S. Grant who had fought his army all the previous day as well called it “the hardest damn couple of days of my life…of any life”
"While sitting with him at the camp-fire late one night, after every one else had gone to bed, I said to him: “General, it seems singular that you have gone through all the rough and tumble of army service and frontier life, and have never been provoked into swearing. I have never heard you utter an oath or use an imprecation.” “Well, somehow or other, I never learned to swear,” he replied. “When a boy I seemed to have an aversion to it, and when I became a man I saw the folly of it. I have always noticed, too, that swearing helps to rouse a man's anger; and when a man flies into a passion his adversary who keeps cool always gets the better of him. In fact, I could never see the use of swearing. I think it is the case with many people who swear excessively that it is a mere habit, and that they do not mean to be profane; but, to say the least, it is a great waste of time.” - Campaigning with Grant, General Horace Porter

"
I am not aware of ever having used a profane expletive in my life; but I would have the charity to excuse those who may have done so, if they were in charge of a train of Mexican pack mules at the time." - Ulysses S Grant
 
"While sitting with him at the camp-fire late one night, after every one else had gone to bed, I said to him: “General, it seems singular that you have gone through all the rough and tumble of army service and frontier life, and have never been provoked into swearing. I have never heard you utter an oath or use an imprecation.” “Well, somehow or other, I never learned to swear,” he replied. “When a boy I seemed to have an aversion to it, and when I became a man I saw the folly of it. I have always noticed, too, that swearing helps to rouse a man's anger; and when a man flies into a passion his adversary who keeps cool always gets the better of him. In fact, I could never see the use of swearing. I think it is the case with many people who swear excessively that it is a mere habit, and that they do not mean to be profane; but, to say the least, it is a great waste of time.” - Campaigning with Grant, General Horace Porter

"
I am not aware of ever having used a profane expletive in my life; but I would have the charity to excuse those who may have done so, if they were in charge of a train of Mexican pack mules at the time." - Ulysses S Grant

From “On the Road to Armageddon” by Hunter McCook
University of Ohio 2009

“October 30th 1864: Joseph Hooker would call it the “the longest day in American History”, Ulysses S. Grant who had fought his army all the previous day as well called it “the hardest damn couple of days of my life…of any life”, Jeff Davis would call it “the Confederacy’s Armageddon”…”

I always thought Hunter McCook was a poor historian, and his falling for that old quote, given Grant didn't swear proves it. He trades on his descent from the legendary Fighting McCooks of Ohio...:D

(I must reread one of my Grant bios).
 
I always thought Hunter McCook was a poor historian, and his falling for that old quote, given Grant didn't swear proves it. He trades on his descent from the legendary Fighting McCooks of Ohio...:D

(I must reread one of my Grant bios).

So either its Sherman (very sweary) or another of those legendary quotes never said like "Beam me up Scotty" or "Lead on MacDuff". That's quick thinking!
 
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