The Official Ocean Liner Thread.
- Thread starter Hood
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I was going to say it looks like a billionaire's superyatch but they probably wouldn't have the taste to have such a classic looking vessel, beautiful lines.
It was extensively restaured, and then failed to sell for 10% of the price of the restauration. I believe it's going to be sold again, so if you know any billionaire with good taste that wanst to convert it to a super yatch givehim/her a call
Coming back to this again I've been wondering about the optimum course of action for Cunard. Starting in the 1930s thanks to [REASONS] several ships are introduced earlier than in our timeline. Queen Mary has her maiden voyage in 1934 beating Normandie by a year, Mauretania has her's in 1935 with a running mate Lusitania – placeholder name – in 1936, and Queen Elizabeth has her maiden voyage in 1939. That gives the company the two Queens for the Southampton to New York route and the two Provinces for the London to New York route.
Post-war I'd probably keep Media and Parthia since they seem to have performed adequately and been popular, 14 years service and sale should be enough to meet depreciation. Definitely keep Caronia, with Mauretania already having a running mate build her mainly as a cruise ship rather than a liner. In fact a sister ship for her might do well with bringing in revenue from 'dollar cruises'. Saxonia and her three sisters were apparently rather successful on the Liverpool to Montreal/Halifax Canadian service, ideally introduce them in 1950 and 1951. Britannic and Georgic can stay on trooping and emigrant service. Alaunia and Arabia seem to have been questionable so probably give them a miss. Queen Elizabeth 2 is of course a given.
In general build the post-war ships with Denny-Brown stabilisers and refit the pre-war ones as available if financially viable. 1957 looks to have been the cross-over year where aircraft carried more passengers across the Atlantic than liners, and introduction of jets like the Comet and 707 would accelerate that, so start to move away from passenger services to cruises in the 1960s. Cunard seem to have rationalised their freight operations in the 1960s and been investing in containerisation which is good, they also partnered with several other shipping lines to form Associated Container Transport (ACT).
I do have to wonder whether something even more dramatic might not have been worth it, say merging ACT with Overseas Containers Limited (OCL) which was another container shipping line formed by a second consortium of companies. On the one hand it would potentially set them up as a large competitor to foreign shipping lines like Maersk and Hapag-Lloyd, on the other the history of large national champions isn't always great. If you wanted to be really extreme a merger between Cunard and P&O under a new holding company with a joint board could be interesting, Cunard with its reputation concentrates on the cruising side whilst P&O handles the freight side of things.
Thoughts?
Post-war I'd probably keep Media and Parthia since they seem to have performed adequately and been popular, 14 years service and sale should be enough to meet depreciation. Definitely keep Caronia, with Mauretania already having a running mate build her mainly as a cruise ship rather than a liner. In fact a sister ship for her might do well with bringing in revenue from 'dollar cruises'. Saxonia and her three sisters were apparently rather successful on the Liverpool to Montreal/Halifax Canadian service, ideally introduce them in 1950 and 1951. Britannic and Georgic can stay on trooping and emigrant service. Alaunia and Arabia seem to have been questionable so probably give them a miss. Queen Elizabeth 2 is of course a given.
In general build the post-war ships with Denny-Brown stabilisers and refit the pre-war ones as available if financially viable. 1957 looks to have been the cross-over year where aircraft carried more passengers across the Atlantic than liners, and introduction of jets like the Comet and 707 would accelerate that, so start to move away from passenger services to cruises in the 1960s. Cunard seem to have rationalised their freight operations in the 1960s and been investing in containerisation which is good, they also partnered with several other shipping lines to form Associated Container Transport (ACT).
I do have to wonder whether something even more dramatic might not have been worth it, say merging ACT with Overseas Containers Limited (OCL) which was another container shipping line formed by a second consortium of companies. On the one hand it would potentially set them up as a large competitor to foreign shipping lines like Maersk and Hapag-Lloyd, on the other the history of large national champions isn't always great. If you wanted to be really extreme a merger between Cunard and P&O under a new holding company with a joint board could be interesting, Cunard with its reputation concentrates on the cruising side whilst P&O handles the freight side of things.
Thoughts?
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@Simon Does this Cunard take over White Star or is it a true merger under better economic conditions? Maybe a smaller Wall St Crash or earlier small market adjustments in the 20's which correct things somewhat so there is never the collapse of OTL and therefore the right conditions for an early set of Queens?
An earlier merger brings up the question of Olympic- her plant/hull and passengers numbers where all in good shape when she was scrapped- does she survive longer here? She would be a superb Trooper along with Aquitania. Similarly is there an Oceanic?
Or is there no merger here and said adjustments stop the Crash and White Star continues in its own way?
An earlier merger brings up the question of Olympic- her plant/hull and passengers numbers where all in good shape when she was scrapped- does she survive longer here? She would be a superb Trooper along with Aquitania. Similarly is there an Oceanic?
Or is there no merger here and said adjustments stop the Crash and White Star continues in its own way?
The possibility that interests me is always White Star actually launching Oceanic alongside Queen Mary such that the merger achieves two express ships. I can see a few paths to this, but the two that come to mind are simply an earlier Oceanic project, possibly pushed by a different distribution of German ships post-war, or Oceanic being prioritized over Georgic such that there are two paused ships under construction at the time of the merger, which somewhat depends on the government having a source for additional funding.
On a completely unrelated note, a thread a while back about the possibility of earlier containerization has me contemplating the possibility of CP being able to do it between the wars in the persuit of attracting European through traffic to an overland service through Canada. The gist of that discussion was that a lot hinges on a company being positioned such that they can break the unions by building their own terminals. Given CPs corporate ties to the UK, existing ocean/rail integration and the project being as much about the railroad as ocean shipping I suspect it's more plausible for them than other firms.
On a completely unrelated note, a thread a while back about the possibility of earlier containerization has me contemplating the possibility of CP being able to do it between the wars in the persuit of attracting European through traffic to an overland service through Canada. The gist of that discussion was that a lot hinges on a company being positioned such that they can break the unions by building their own terminals. Given CPs corporate ties to the UK, existing ocean/rail integration and the project being as much about the railroad as ocean shipping I suspect it's more plausible for them than other firms.
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There'll definitely be a merger – there simply isn't enough business for both of them – although I'm not fully decided on which, at the moment I'm leaning more towards our timeline's takeover rather than a true merger as you put it. If I want a sister ship for Mauretania I'll probably have to use part of the government loan to finance it, which in turn means Cunard needing to be in a slightly better position financially beforehand. Not wholly sure how to achieve that, best idea so far is their reading the runes regarding coming interwar US immigration reforms and manage to position themselves correctly. As such it likely means many of the White Star ships still end up being sent to the ship breakers.
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Interesting thread on a surviving Normandie here: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...s-fire-converted-into-a-ww2-troopship.500865/
Probably the easiest way to get the Oceanic beyond the keel is to have the debate about what propulsion to use for her be settled earlier then in OTL.
Titanic is a huge hotbed of What If's as so many alt branches are packed into one event, there are so, so many!
In no particular order the What Ifs I'd like to resolve the most:
1. Californian's radio operator Cyril Evans, like Stanley Adams on Mesaba adding the Prefix to their messages that meant the messages had to be taken to the Bridge. I think it likely Capt Smith would have ordered a massive slow down and extra look outs, plus a black out ahead of the Bridge therefore leading to more chance of missing a berg.
2. The Officers not knowing that the davits and boats could be filled and lowered to capacity. While in the early stages of the sinking this would have meany filling with anyone nearby since some where reluctant to get into boats. It certainly would have made a difference later on and upped the total number of survivors.
3. Olympic not impacting Hawke and Titanic sailing on her original schedule.
4. Californian's radio operator Cyril Evans not logging off and reporting the CQD immediately. Could Californian made a difference at all?
5. What impact on the Taft - Roosevelt split could Butt have had? Teddy as President again in 1912 has huge repercussions.
6. More boats going back for survivors plus Lowe not waiting as long to go looking.
7. Capt Smith being clearer with Lightoller about calling him if the weather conditions changed, and Murdoch being less rigid about calling the Captain.
8. The Marconi equipment not breaking down down so Phillips and Bride where not so far behind.
9. The iceberg opening one less compartment. How much longer could Titanic float?
10. The Board of Trade regulations changing to ensure 'space for all' - Titanic may have carried more boats, but how much difference would have have made in the time to evacuate?
In no particular order the What Ifs I'd like to resolve the most:
1. Californian's radio operator Cyril Evans, like Stanley Adams on Mesaba adding the Prefix to their messages that meant the messages had to be taken to the Bridge. I think it likely Capt Smith would have ordered a massive slow down and extra look outs, plus a black out ahead of the Bridge therefore leading to more chance of missing a berg.
2. The Officers not knowing that the davits and boats could be filled and lowered to capacity. While in the early stages of the sinking this would have meany filling with anyone nearby since some where reluctant to get into boats. It certainly would have made a difference later on and upped the total number of survivors.
3. Olympic not impacting Hawke and Titanic sailing on her original schedule.
4. Californian's radio operator Cyril Evans not logging off and reporting the CQD immediately. Could Californian made a difference at all?
5. What impact on the Taft - Roosevelt split could Butt have had? Teddy as President again in 1912 has huge repercussions.
6. More boats going back for survivors plus Lowe not waiting as long to go looking.
7. Capt Smith being clearer with Lightoller about calling him if the weather conditions changed, and Murdoch being less rigid about calling the Captain.
8. The Marconi equipment not breaking down down so Phillips and Bride where not so far behind.
9. The iceberg opening one less compartment. How much longer could Titanic float?
10. The Board of Trade regulations changing to ensure 'space for all' - Titanic may have carried more boats, but how much difference would have have made in the time to evacuate?
Given how things went that night, I honestly don't think they would've been able to get out more given how quick they got 18 boats lowered during the OTL sinking (remember the two collapsibles near funnel 1 were never launched)
My great thing is.... what if Boiler Room 1 was lit as well... how would that effect the power in the long run. The lights staying on until the very end always mystifies me, so seeing how that would play out would be very interesting to see, especially for survivors in the boats.
Titanic Question:
If the orders had been:
Hard a starboard
Port propeller full ahead
Starboard propeller full astern
Would the ship have swung enough to clear the iceberg or opened less compartments?
If not what sort of orders might have opened less compartments or missed the iceberg completely please?
Without time travellers fore knowledge or smashing head long into the iceberg (not an option).
If the orders had been:
Hard a starboard
Port propeller full ahead
Starboard propeller full astern
Would the ship have swung enough to clear the iceberg or opened less compartments?
If not what sort of orders might have opened less compartments or missed the iceberg completely please?
Without time travellers fore knowledge or smashing head long into the iceberg (not an option).
But once you're sailing upside down, wouldn't the wind blow the other way? ;-)
Murdoch really didn't have time to think about such nuances. The iceberg was there, he acted, and it almost worked.
Interesting, Captain Smith and George Bowyer did push New York away from its collision course by creating a wash with the port propeller.