WI: Hitler gives Rommel necessary supplies in 1942?

[MattII]

You just made my point, it can't happen because it's not Hitler's war goals or temperament, not that it's impossible though.

A more rational German leader wouldn't have been sucked into North Africa,

Even so far as Frano if any German leader went down after the fall of France immediately and read him the riot act he would have signed on.

And quickly regretted it, since Spain was reliant on all sorts of imports that are now rapidly dwindling, and which Germany can't provide.

But, a colonial war didn't fit Hitler's military objectives. I think Stalin could be disuaded from making too big demands of Germany by giving him some of the things he wanted in terms of Turkey along with strong arming him and Germany still had a strong hand, but wouldn't by 43.

He also wanted Finland remember, which is less palatable.

In any case, this is about Hitler prioritising North Africa over Russia, not focussing exclusively on North Africa to the exception of Operations in Russia.

 

[jmc247]

A more rational German leader wouldn't have been sucked into North Africa,

And quickly regretted it, since Spain was reliant on all sorts of imports that are now rapidly dwindling, and which Germany can't provide.

He also wanted Finland remember, which is less palatable.

In any case, this is about Hitler prioritising North Africa over Russia, not focussing exclusively on North Africa to the exception of Operations in Russia.

Well yes scaling back Case Blue is not necessary a bad thing for Germany militarily in 1942 as the plan itself was over ambitious. If Hitler doesn't scale it back with less troops it fails worse then OTL. 2-3 more German divisions in say early 42 would at very least prevent the rout of the DAK in Egypt to early 1943. In the end of the day it means the war in NA ends either late 43 or early 44 depending on how it plays out in Egypt.

Only by a super stroke of luck could anything better then that occur like the DAK not losing to the British how they are spying on them in battle and overrunning British troops with documents on Ultra which could have happened.

 

[Michele]

You just made my point, it can't happen because it's not Hitler's war goals or temperament, not that it's impossible though. Even so far as Franco if any German leader went down after the fall of France immediately and read him the riot act he would have signed on. Any German leader could have also forced Il Duce from his Greek adventure by reading him the riot act beforehand.

No. No as to Franco. No as to Mussolini.

 

[jmc247]

No. No as to Franco. No as to Mussolini.

I am not so sure if Hitler was willing to play hardball with them in 1940 the way he did many Axis minors.

 

[MattII]

2-3 more German divisions in say early 42 would at very least prevent the rout of the DAK in Egypt to early 1943. In the end of the day it means the war in NA ends either late 43 or early 44 depending on how it plays out in Egypt.

2-3 more division makes things worse, not better, because you still have unchangeable logistical constraints.

Maybe if you take out all of the railway lines west of Libra you can lay them eastwards and shave 100 or so km off your journey to the front.

I am not so sure if Hitler was willing to play hardball with them in 1940 the way he did many Axis minors.

Involving Spain means draining their already low reserves to support yet another second-rate nation. it would actually be a net loss, especially once the British rarked up Peninsula War 2.0.

 

[RodentRevolution]

Of all the stunningly stupid military decisions made in Berlin during WW II Africa (and by extension everything in the Med prior to Italy's surrender) tops the list. Take on the three largest economies on Earth at the same time, while facing six times my population? Sure, that'll work. Send off ~10% of my combat mass into a theater that doesn't even qualify as secondary at the same time? Absolutely. Like the cherry on top of the sundae.

The problem for Hitler though is even if he pulls the DAK out completely that gives him just four divisions for the Eastern Front, true they are motorised divisions which makes them more useful than the majority of horse pulled ground fillers but there are only four of them.

What he really wants against the Soviets are the missing planes of Luftflotte 2....except they are actually doing an important job in the Med as planes can sink ships and and shoot down Allied planes and so he needs them to stop a bad situation getting worse down there.

Remember the Western Allies may have chosen to ignore the Balkans but Hitler was very aware that was where his copper and several other strategic raw materials came from. Seen in that light the decision to try and keep the Allies busy further away, which in practice meant Africa because Iraq was a dud seemed logical. It was impossible but then as pointed out by Calbear the whole enterprise was impossible.

Hitler was basically forced into a series of gamblers throws, had they all come off he would have gone down in the history written by his admiring sycophants as the second Alexander the Great. Of course gambles like that do not usually come off and so there is a reason there has been only one Alexander the Great.

 

[marathag]

Did any of those companies work to the same plans as any of the others, or were there literally 78 different truck models out there with few if any swappable parts?

Some parts might interchange(law of probability), but there was no standardized plan, like the US or Canada did.

Everybody went their own way.

Oh, the Opels and Ford of Germany would have more parts commonality with those Canadian or US models, than other German makes

 

[Gannt the chartist]

Lot more truck models than that. All the French types and captured Russian and British stocks. School busses for the Panzer Grenadiers.

Scaling down Blue is not an option.

The point of Blue is to destroy the USSR and secure enough resources to fight off the western allies. Not doing that means guaranteeing a two front war against 75% of the worlds economy and rather more of world population.

 

[Redbeard]

The problem for Hitler though is even if he pulls the DAK out completely that gives him just four divisions for the Eastern Front, true they are motorised divisions which makes them more useful than the majority of horse pulled ground fillers but there are only four of them.

What he really wants against the Soviets are the missing planes of Luftflotte 2....except they are actually doing an important job in the Med as planes can sink ships and and shoot down Allied planes and so he needs them to stop a bad situation getting worse down there.

Remember the Western Allies may have chosen to ignore the Balkans but Hitler was very aware that was where his copper and several other strategic raw materials came from. Seen in that light the decision to try and keep the Allies busy further away, which in practice meant Africa because Iraq was a dud seemed logical. It was impossible but then as pointed out by Calbear the whole enterprise was impossible.

Hitler was basically forced into a series of gamblers throws, had they all come off he would have gone down in the history written by his admiring sycophants as the second Alexander the Great. Of course gambles like that do not usually come off and so there is a reason there has been only one Alexander the Great.

As a thumb rule the DAK in NA took up the logistic capacity on an entire army on the Eastern Front plus a significant part of the Luftwaffe. That shifted to the Eastern Front will hardly win Germany the war, but it might have her not loose it quite so dramatically.

The Mediterranean scene IMHO first of all had effect in the Far East as it immensely complicated the European powers maintaining their Asian presence. With the longer route round the Cape the Wallies were all through the war in chronic shortage of shipping which put a constraint on all operations.

With no Mediterranean war I doubt the OTL Japanese offensive would have been possible, but OTOH I' worried that the Wallies would have been tempted/compelled to try an invasion of France in 1942 or 1943, which is in serious risk of ending in disaster for the Wallies.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

As a thumb rule the DAK in NA took up the logistic capacity on an entire army on the Eastern Front plus a significant part of the Luftwaffe. That shifted to the Eastern Front will hardly win Germany the war, but it might have her not loose it quite so dramatically.

The Mediterranean scene IMHO first of all had effect in the Far East as it immensely complicated the European powers maintaining their Asian presence. With the longer route round the Cape the Wallies were all through the war in chronic shortage of shipping which put a constraint on all operations.

With no Mediterranean war I doubt the OTL Japanese offensive would have been possible, but OTOH I' worried that the Wallies would have been tempted/compelled to try an invasion of France in 1942 or 1943, which is in serious risk of ending in disaster for the Wallies.

The Conflict in North Africa did however indirectly benefit Japan

Had one or two of the top tier Commonwealth Divisions (maybe some Tank Units?) and several more Wings of aircraft, not to mention ships and submarines along with 1 or 2 better commanders been available to reinforce Malaya then Malaya and Singapore is very unlikely to have fallen - this then has implications to the entire conduct of the war in the far east.

The Japanese only had 60 Thousand troops for the Malaya campaign and were almost completely exhausted and at the extreme limits of there logistical ability when the Allies Surrendered.

The implications of this did impact the Wallies for several years after Japan entered the war and even small diversions of equipment and aircraft necessary to shore up Burma etc as well as the subsequant US Island hopping campaign might instead have been used in the ETO.

 

[Kaiser K]

Even without taking into account that giving the DAK the supplies would put a bit of a dent in the Soviet campaign, which is not smart at all, doing so would not help the War in Africa at all in honesty; and the DAK and Italians would still probably be defeated by early 1943.

 

[Michele]

I am not so sure if Hitler was willing to play hardball with them in 1940 the way he did many Axis minors.

The problem is exactly that contrarily to your take of things in 1940, they weren't minors like say Romania. Not Italy; not Spain.

 

[jmc247]

The problem is exactly that contrarily to your take of things in 1940, they weren't minors like say Romania. Not Italy; not Spain.

Italy and Spain didn't think they were minors, but after the Fall of France and before the BoB Hitler had such an aura of invincibility that if he went down to Spain and told Franco join me it would have happened.

He waited until after his aura had been damaged by the BoB, then he sent Canaris a guy that argued exactly the opposite of what he sent him there for... IE Canaris told Franco that Hitler would screw up the war so stay out of it.

If Hitler advised Italy to go after Malta and allow some German troops with Italian troops in North Africa (who would keep a low profile) at this time frame it probably would have happened as well as long as Hitler convinced the would be Caesar that German troops and advisers would keep a low profile and it would all seem like a great Italian victory.

But, like I said the issue with all of this is Hitler didn't believe in the whole Mediterranean strategy. He tossed enough resources to it to hurt the war in the East and delay Italian failure in North Africa, but that is it. Did Hitler ever visit troops in North Africa? lol no. Did Churchill? He did it twice. Did Hitler visit the Eastern front? Yes.

That says all that needs to be said about its priorities in the war. But, at the same time he didn't leash Rommel or get rid of him who was busy trying to make Africa more then a bloody holding action without the resources to do so.

 

[Saphroneth]

Italy and Spain didn't think they were minors, but after the Fall of France and before the BoB Hitler had such an aura of invincibility that if he went down to Spain and told Franco join me it would have happened.

He waited until after his aura had been damaged by the BoB, then he sent Canaris a guy that argued exactly the opposite of what he sent him there for... IE Canaris told him Hitler would screw up the war so stay out of it.

...like hell. Why would Franco do that? Because Britain's about to surrender?
But if Britain is about to surrender then why does Hitler need help?
Besides, Franco had a lot of nation building to do. The Spanish Civil War had torn the country to shreds.

 

[jmc247]

...like hell. Why would Franco do that? Because Britain's about to surrender?
But if Britain is about to surrender then why does Hitler need help?
Besides, Franco had a lot of nation building to do. The Spanish Civil War had torn the country to shreds.

Alot of people in the weeks after the Fall of France, but before the Battle of Britain started then went south for Germany did think that the British Empire would throw in the towel after a few weeks of negotiations. Not a surrender, but a negotiated peace. So, no its not quite so improbable as you think given the prospective at the time.

If the BEF had been mauled Franco would almost certainly have thrown in even without Hitler coming down to Spain to get what he could in what I am sure he would think would be the post war negotiations. The thing in war is that psychological victory can be turned into actual victory as an enemy can be beaten before they are actually beaten by psychology... and you can get lots of allies you otherwise wouldn't just by people thinking you are winning and going to win.

 

[Saphroneth]

Alot of people in the weeks after the Fall of France, but before the Battle of Britain started then went south for Germany did think that the British Empire would throw in the towel after a few weeks of negotiations. Not a surrender, but a negotiated peace. So, no its not quite so improbable as you think given the prospective at the time.

If the BEF had been mauled Franco would almost certainly have thrown in even without Hitler coming down to Spain to get what he could in what I am sure he would think would be the post war negotiations. The thing in war is that psychological victory can be turned into actual victory as an enemy can be beaten before they are actually beaten by psychology... and you can get lots of allies you otherwise wouldn't just by people thinking you are winning and going to win.

No, I mean - what would they get? Gibraltar?
That's not enough to justify the risk, in Franco's mind. Remember, Franco was the only one of the 1930s dictators who died in bed decades later and whose country never got sucked into a rash war.
Franco will be thinking - why does Hitler want my help, if Britain is about to lose?
And he will be thinking - what's in it for me, and what do I stand to lose?
What's in it for him is - Gibraltar.
What he stands to lose - his own legitimacy. Spain is desperately war weary at this point, and if this goes sour he's fucked. And all their food shipments arrive in British or American bottoms.

 

[jmc247]

No, I mean - what would they get? Gibraltar?
That's not enough to justify the risk, in Franco's mind. Remember, Franco was the only one of the 1930s dictators who died in bed decades later and whose country never got sucked into a rash war.
Franco will be thinking - why does Hitler want my help, if Britain is about to lose?
And he will be thinking - what's in it for me, and what do I stand to lose?
What's in it for him is - Gibraltar.
What he stands to lose - his own legitimacy. Spain is desperately war weary at this point, and if this goes sour he's fucked. And all their food shipments arrive in British or American bottoms.

And, still he did almost join the Axis at points in time if you believe certain sources in spite of both Canaris and Hitler's indifference.

 

[Saphroneth]

And, still he did almost join the Axis at points in time if you believe certain sources in spite of both Canaris and Hitler's indifference.

Certain sources?

 

[jmc247]

Certain sources?

I am no expert on the matter and can't quote any books, but others on the issue here have said that in early 41 he was seriously considering joining the Axis before watching how dysfunctional Italy and Germany were as allies in their Baltic actions.

 

[Simon]

They would have loved to have just three.

And that was before you account for all the British and Italian trucks the DAK used

Or the French lorries the Germans effectively bullied out of them in the Paris Protocols that were supplied from those already in Tunisia and Algeria plus the others shipped in from the Metropole.

Mind you it wasn't just a German problem. You should see the plethora of lorries from different manufacturers that the British used, all with different parts and engines. Just from some quick research they were using three different types of 0.75-ton lorry, three different types 1.5-ton vehicle, six different types of 3-tonners, I forget how many 6-ton but thankfully just one 10-ton lorry. And those are just the domestic models - you've got Canadian and American supplied ones, plus tank transporters and recovery vehicles are completely separate categories. What they really should have done was have design competitions but then just choose one winner and ruthlessly standardise on a single model in the 0.75-ton, 1.5-ton, 3-ton, 6-ton and 10-ton weight categories.