Cmyers1980
Banned
What if Hitler gave Rommel and his Afrika Korps the necessary supplies and reinforcments that were asked for around spring 1942 rather than devote them to the Eastern Front?
WI: Hitler gives Rommel necessary supplies in 1942?
- Thread starter Cmyers1980
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The Germans' poor understanding of logistics means that this isn't much of an improvement, I mean they had like 5 or more different 7.5 cm guns, each using a different shell length, making for a logistical nightmare. Their trucks weren't much better either, given they were using the outputs of three different companies, with practically no swappable parts, etc.
Which does not address the problem of Benghazi and Tobruk being very small to begain with. Nor the larger problem of no army in WWII, including the US & Britian, sucessfully running a automotive supply deliver of more than a few hundred miles. The distance from Tripoli to the Egyptian frontier is far beyond any realistic automotive supply delivery. That is bourne out by studies by the like of Creveld or Ellis. One can pick over the Italian records showing how cargo idled in the Tripoli dumps while the truck convoys sucked down more weight in fuel than cargo delivered.
Well, a couple things. First, its possible that more supplies and shipping are sent to the bottom of the Med. Second, no matter how many supplies they get, the Allies are going to have More. I can't seem to remember the exact date ATM but I recall Churchill needing 500 tanks (Lee/Grants), pronto, boom done USA redirects a convoy and "ta da!" 500 tanks delivered. Just one example, but a good one I think.
Then you have this; Operation Torch occurred the first week of November '42 and I don't think its a stretch to say that if things were to go painfully awry the schedule could move up a month or more So let's say, September for spitballs sake. That means, essentially the DAK has around 9 months to do what it needs to.
In any event, and others have said and noted, the logistics were already borderline nightmare and they had trouble unloading what they had to begin with and also they would need to come from somewhere so some other operation would get less. I would say 1942 would be far too late for anything decisive in Germany/Italy's favour
Then you have this; Operation Torch occurred the first week of November '42 and I don't think its a stretch to say that if things were to go painfully awry the schedule could move up a month or more So let's say, September for spitballs sake. That means, essentially the DAK has around 9 months to do what it needs to.
In any event, and others have said and noted, the logistics were already borderline nightmare and they had trouble unloading what they had to begin with and also they would need to come from somewhere so some other operation would get less. I would say 1942 would be far too late for anything decisive in Germany/Italy's favour
Taking the war into the Middle East was impossible, but with increased support and a few different decisions in 1941 to early 42 Alexandra was possible. Of course the Qattara Depression is a mighty barrier, but its not impossible to get through in the right situation though. Then you have German forces stuck in Egypt between the U.S. Army on one side and the British 8th Army on the other, but the Desert War still probably goes extra innings because of it.. probably to at least early 44.
But, realistically Axis decision making needed to be made differently I would argue in the 40/41 time frame at least in respect to the African campaign to have a better then even chance of taking Egypt.
But, realistically Axis decision making needed to be made differently I would argue in the 40/41 time frame at least in respect to the African campaign to have a better then even chance of taking Egypt.
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That is what I meant by the 40-41 time frame being the time with the best hope of changing things in Africa. Think Italy taking Malta in 40 and asking for help from Germany a few months earlier then OTL along with some extra support going down there.
By early 1942 another say two German divisions could make a difference, but its not a certainty by any stretch.
marathag
Banned
They would have loved to have just three
And that was before you account for all the British and Italian trucks the DAK used
Both require prescience, Mussolini isn't going to call for help until he realises he can't cope, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to suspect that the British would consider Malta too impossible to reinforce, after all, they'd done it with the Channel Islands, which were much nearer Britain than Malta was any other British possession.
And none of this helps the major issue of infrastructure.
How many companies were supplying the things then?They would have loved to have just three
Trucks for which there were no parts, and thus were a finite resource.
Allies would have gotten bored with that & gone on to Berlin. Or at least Rome. By April 1943 at the latest the Allied air forces in Algeria/Tunisia are strong enough to isolate Tunisia allowing the capture of Tunis & Bizerte. That ensures Allied air power can cover the central Med & sea routes from Axis European ports to Africa, covering Allied sea power interdicting any remaining Italian cargo ships. Sicily & then Italy are invaded more or less as OTL and the Panzer Army Africa surrenders to avoid starving.
TFSmith121
Banned
Is Hitler going to give the Italians a navy and merchant marine
Is Hitler going to give the Italians a navy and merchant marine while he's at it?
Best,
Is Hitler going to give the Italians a navy and merchant marine while he's at it?
Best,
The problem with this is always the same.
It just doesn't matter.
Send more equipment to Rommel. Send only German equipment.
Doesn't matter.
Push hard enough and you delay the Pacific Offensive a couple months because the USN sends forces to reinforce the RN. The Reich isn't going to gain control of the Med even if the USN has to use Ranger as nothing but an aircraft transport flying off P-40s every couple weeks to Malta.
Doesn't matter.
The Reich can't build ships fast enough to make up for the ones that get sunk by USN forces that join the RN (if anything the whole torpedo fiasco might get straightened out a bit sooner).
The Med doesn't matter to the Reich. Every soldier, every gun, every liter of fuel sent to Africa is a gift to the Allies. Every bullet fired, every nut or bolt used in the Western Desert instead of on the Steppe is a deposit in Soviet War Bonds.
As is the North African Campaign/Western Desert cost the Axis nearly as much as the Stalingrad disaster (North Africa/Western Desert cost the Werhmacht 158,000 unrecoverable losses with the Italians taking better than 360K). All of it for absolutely nothing. NOTHING.
Hell, if the Wehrmacht was willing to send 1,000,000 men to Tunisia the WAllies should have loaned them the shipping. No way to supply them, no way to retrieve them. May as well have them on Mars.
Of all the stunningly stupid military decisions made in Berlin during WW II Africa (and by extension everything in the Med prior to Italy's surrender) tops the list. Take on the three largest economies on Earth at the same time, while facing six times my population? Sure, that'll work. Send off ~10% of my combat mass into a theater that doesn't even qualify as secondary at the same time? Absolutely. Like the cherry on top of the sundae.
It just doesn't matter.
Send more equipment to Rommel. Send only German equipment.
Doesn't matter.
Push hard enough and you delay the Pacific Offensive a couple months because the USN sends forces to reinforce the RN. The Reich isn't going to gain control of the Med even if the USN has to use Ranger as nothing but an aircraft transport flying off P-40s every couple weeks to Malta.
Doesn't matter.
The Reich can't build ships fast enough to make up for the ones that get sunk by USN forces that join the RN (if anything the whole torpedo fiasco might get straightened out a bit sooner).
The Med doesn't matter to the Reich. Every soldier, every gun, every liter of fuel sent to Africa is a gift to the Allies. Every bullet fired, every nut or bolt used in the Western Desert instead of on the Steppe is a deposit in Soviet War Bonds.
As is the North African Campaign/Western Desert cost the Axis nearly as much as the Stalingrad disaster (North Africa/Western Desert cost the Werhmacht 158,000 unrecoverable losses with the Italians taking better than 360K). All of it for absolutely nothing. NOTHING.
Hell, if the Wehrmacht was willing to send 1,000,000 men to Tunisia the WAllies should have loaned them the shipping. No way to supply them, no way to retrieve them. May as well have them on Mars.
Of all the stunningly stupid military decisions made in Berlin during WW II Africa (and by extension everything in the Med prior to Italy's surrender) tops the list. Take on the three largest economies on Earth at the same time, while facing six times my population? Sure, that'll work. Send off ~10% of my combat mass into a theater that doesn't even qualify as secondary at the same time? Absolutely. Like the cherry on top of the sundae.
You seem to think the question is could this win the war for Germany. No one is saying that or even suggesting it as far as I can see.
It could only be a game changer in the war itself other then delaying the end if Hitler never attacked the Soviet Union in 41 and manage to delay the U.S. entry into the war. Then maybe with the fall of Egypt you could have Churchill booted and it completely change the war if not end it on something close to pre-WW1 borders for Germany, but again that wasn't Hitler's war aim... it was Rommel's when he left for Africa in Feb of 1941, but not Hitler's.
But, you aren't wrong that with Hitler war aims that had nothing to do with Africa it wouldn't have, but the question is could Egypt have been taken or not more then can Germany win the war as taking Egypt with the U.S. and Soviet Union in the war doesn't win the war it just potentially delays the end until nukes are dropped IMHO. Egypt is probably the best place in North Africa to fight a two front war from not that there is any good place to fight a two front war.
Even without Barbarossa, the Germans can't pour enough equipment into Africa to have more than 5% chance of beating the British in the field, even if Rommel actually takes Tobruk in '41. Oh maybe if you take Tobruk, retain Halfaya Pass, and then turtle like hell which rapidly expanding infrastructure you might by 1944 or later be able to match the British in terms of supplies, but this just allows the British to pull out most of their troops to reinforce Malaya, break the western flank of the Japanese push South, and then continue north into Thailand.
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I am talking about a very different war. The one Rommel imagined and argued should happen after the fall of France is to basically give the French back everything they had up to 1914 to get them in the war. Hitler wasn't down with that because Italy and Japan wanted parts of France. If Germany doesn't give parts of French Indochina to Japan the U.S. doesn't go after them or at least is delayed in doing so by quite awhile so the Pacific war is delayed.
Then go down to Spain and give Franco an offer he couldn't refuse (Rommel's first letter back from France after its fall makes a point to mention he is ready to take Gibraltar) which Hitler didn't do and no sending Canaris to cajole him doesn't count.
Basically he wanted a Mediterranean strategy that didn't involve pissing off the U.S. by hitting allied convoys in the Atlantic and bombing British cities. Something that would tire out the British public, but not piss them off as Hitler did. I am not so sure the U.S. would have provided LL to Britain with such a strategy to protect Britain's Empire instead of England itself. Without LL even if Germany is still fighting over Libya Britain IMHO exists the war before the middle of 1942.
The issue you are dealing with was this was Hitler's war strategy and to be frank given his war strategy it militarily it made no sense to commit any troops to Africa at all even for a holding action as all he really cared about was winning a massive victory in Russia and building an empire in the East he could colonize so everything for him rested on the invasion of Russia in 1941 being as successful as possible.
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marathag
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You're still at war with them.
Franco wants (and needs) more than Hitler can offer.
In other words, NotNazis? Led by a conservative genius with a internationally acclaimed peaceful nature? Sorry, not happening.
This is about the same time the Soviets get pissed off at not getting paid for the resources they're exporting to German, and stop, leading to an economic collapse and a popular revolt.
Did any of those companies work to the same plans as any of the others, or were there literally 78 different truck models out there with few if any swappable parts?
You just made my point, it can't happen because it's not Hitler's war goals or temperament, not that it's impossible though. Even so far as Franco if any German leader went down after the fall of France immediately and read him the riot act he would have signed on. Any German leader could have also forced Il Duce from his Greek adventure by reading him the riot act beforehand. Hitler did't do much at all to try to control his allies.
But, a colonial war didn't fit Hitler's military objectives. I think Stalin could be disuaded from making too big demands of Germany in 42 and possibly even 43 by giving him some of the things he wanted in terms of Turkey along with strong arming him and Germany still had a strong hand, but wouldn't certainly by 44.
Obviously, such a scenero relies on Hitler or someone equally ambitious not deciding the war aims.