WI: Hitler gives Rommel necessary supplies in 1942?

marathag

Banned
Mind you it wasn't just a German problem. You should see the plethora of lorries from different manufacturers that the British used, all with different parts and engines. Just from some quick research they were using three different types of 0.75-ton lorry, three different types 1.5-ton vehicle, six different types of 3-tonners, I forget how many 6-ton but thankfully just one 10-ton lorry.

AEC Marshall
Albion
Austin
Bedford
Bradford
Bristol
Commer
Crossley
Daimler
Dennis
ERF
Foden
Ford
Fordson
Garner
Guy
Hillman
Humber
James
Jowett
Karrier
Leyland
Maudslay
Morris-Commercial
Nuffield
Reliant
Rolls-Royce
Scammel
Standard
Thornycroft
Trojan
Vauxhall
Vulcan
Wolseley

And even within the same company, there often was little standardization from model to model


And those are just the domestic models - you've got Canadian and American supplied ones, plus tank transporters and recovery vehicles are completely separate categories. What they really should have done was have design competitions but then just choose one winner and ruthlessly standardise on a single model in the 0.75-ton, 1.5-ton, 3-ton, 6-ton and 10-ton weight categories.

Or What the US did, Studebakers went to the USSR, while US used the GMC for 2.5 Ton class. Smaller numbers of Dodge command cars went all over.

Ford and Willys Jeeps were nearly totally interchangeable, parts wise
 
The problem with this is always the same.

It just doesn't matter.

Send more equipment to Rommel. Send only German equipment.

Doesn't matter.

Push hard enough and you delay the Pacific Offensive a couple months because the USN sends forces to reinforce the RN. The Reich isn't going to gain control of the Med even if the USN has to use Ranger as nothing but an aircraft transport flying off P-40s every couple weeks to Malta.

Doesn't matter.

The Reich can't build ships fast enough to make up for the ones that get sunk by USN forces that join the RN (if anything the whole torpedo fiasco might get straightened out a bit sooner).

The Med doesn't matter to the Reich. Every soldier, every gun, every liter of fuel sent to Africa is a gift to the Allies. Every bullet fired, every nut or bolt used in the Western Desert instead of on the Steppe is a deposit in Soviet War Bonds.

As is the North African Campaign/Western Desert cost the Axis nearly as much as the Stalingrad disaster (North Africa/Western Desert cost the Werhmacht 158,000 unrecoverable losses with the Italians taking better than 360K). All of it for absolutely nothing. NOTHING.

Hell, if the Wehrmacht was willing to send 1,000,000 men to Tunisia the WAllies should have loaned them the shipping. No way to supply them, no way to retrieve them. May as well have them on Mars.

Of all the stunningly stupid military decisions made in Berlin during WW II Africa (and by extension everything in the Med prior to Italy's surrender) tops the list. Take on the three largest economies on Earth at the same time, while facing six times my population? Sure, that'll work. Send off ~10% of my combat mass into a theater that doesn't even qualify as secondary at the same time? Absolutely. Like the cherry on top of the sundae.

The main reason why Hitler sent troops to Africa was to protect Italy. If Hitler doesn't send troops there and the British overrun Libya (and maybe Tunisia), then they'll be a threat to Sicily. The Germans' main problem was (1) they were trying to fight a war against 3 Great Powers at once and (2) the Italians couldn't fight.
 
The main reason why Hitler sent troops to Africa was to protect Italy. If Hitler doesn't send troops there and the British overrun Libya (and maybe Tunisia), then they'll be a threat to Sicily. The Germans' main problem was (1) they were trying to fight a war against 3 Great Powers at once and (2) the Italians couldn't fight.

He sent troops to Africa before the U.S. entered in the war or even passed Lend Lease, heck many months before he attacked the USSR as well.
 
AEC Marshall
Albion
Austin
Bedford
Bradford
Bristol
Commer
Crossley
Daimler
Dennis
ERF
Foden
Ford
Fordson
Garner
Guy
Hillman
Humber
James
Jowett
Karrier
Leyland
Maudslay
Morris-Commercial
Nuffield
Reliant
Rolls-Royce
Scammel
Standard
Thornycroft
Trojan
Vauxhall
Vulcan
Wolseley

And even within the same company, there often was little standardization from model to model




Or What the US did, Studebakers went to the USSR, while US used the GMC for 2.5 Ton class. Smaller numbers of Dodge command cars went all over.

Ford and Willys Jeeps were nearly totally interchangeable, parts wise

Yes sadly on at least one occasion the parts were not standard in the same engine which affected 1400 Austin K5 3 Tonners - but that is a flash in the pan relative to the number of vehicles they actually had (although its always brought up as a major issue impacting supply etc which doubt it was)

Some vehicles such as the AEC Matador on the other hand where - up to a few years ago at least still being used by logging companies in the UK - despite no longer being road legal they are so indestructible that the companies kept them running as to purchase a modern replacement capable of the same off road performance was prohibitively expensive.
 
AEC Marshall
Albion
Austin
Bedford
Bradford
Bristol
Commer
Crossley
Daimler
Dennis
ERF
Foden
Ford
Fordson
Garner
Guy
Hillman
Humber
James
Jowett
Karrier
Leyland
Maudslay
Morris-Commercial
Nuffield
Reliant
Rolls-Royce
Scammel
Standard
Thornycroft
Trojan
Vauxhall
Vulcan
Wolseley

And even within the same company, there often was little standardization from model to model
Yes, lots of companies, but how many models were being built between them> 1-2 per company? or 5-6 over the whole spectrum?
 
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Yes, lots of companies, but how many models were being built between them> 1-2 per company? or 5-6 over the whole spectrum?
Whilst there was a small amount of duplication as far as I'm aware by and large they all carried on making their own models. IIRC the relevant government ministry justified it by stating that if firms were forced to manufacture another firm's vehicles that they wouldn't put their heart into it and that they wouldn't like it as post-war it would put them at a commercial disadvantage. The first of which sounds insane enough to actually have been something the government would do and the second is kind of reasonable, if you forget for a minute that you're in the middle of a war for national survival, but hardly an insurmountable challenge to make sure that things got shared out equitably. The other problem was that for all the government was willing to step in and run the economy to a large degree, going so far as to nationalise Short Brothers or lean on Napier & Son and English Electric to have the former taken over by the latter, they could be oddly spineless when dealing with some large business firms.
 
...and the second is kind of reasonable, if you forget for a minute that you're in the middle of a war for national survival, but hardly an insurmountable challenge to make sure that things got shared out equitably.
I suppose this was in the days before rebadging was a big thing.
 

marathag

Banned
I suppose this was in the days before rebadging was a big thing.

Bantam got screwed, they invented the Jeep,
Bantam-no1-19400923.jpg

but couldn't build the numbers needed, so got the consolation prize of making trailers for Jeeps.

BantamRR.jpg



I imagine the UK way would have been that 5 companies would make vehicles that would meet the contract specs (a general purpose, personnel, or cargo carrier especially adaptable for reconnaissance or command, and designated as 1/4-ton 4x4 Truck), and might be interchangeable enough to maybe use the same tires, and some nuts and bolts here and there.

Maybe.
 
Re... badging? What is this foreign sorcery that you speak of? ;)

It's foreign alright! The last time it happened the Jerries bought a license for the Austin 7

1922_Austin_7_--_Shanghai_Automobile_Museum_2012-05-26.JPG


and built it as the Dixi

800px-Dixi_3-15_DA_%281929%29.jpg


aka BMW's first 3-series. So you're right, no proper British company would be caught doing such a thing! ;)
 

marathag

Banned
It's foreign alright! The last time it happened the Jerries bought a license for the Austin 7 ;)

There was the American Austin Car Company, and they made the 'American Austin'
1931-american-austin.jpg

Until 1934, where the Depression worsened business for them, as a Ford V8 was only a $150 more. Bankrupt.

They reorganized the following year, as American Bantam, and would use their small car expertise to make the prototype Jeep in 1940
 
No. No as to Franco. No as to Mussolini.

I guess the Franco question inevitably comes up when we think of alternative strategies against Britain. We all know that Franco wanted no part in the axis camp, but is it impossible that so much pressure could be brought to bear that he would join it.
Naturally, Hitler would not want to be drawn into a war in Spain, but it is not unlike his nature to gamble that he wouldn't have to?

If one imagines, soon after the fall of France as it becomes clear Britain doesn't surrender and Hitler decides he really wants to go east, he then decides that with Spain in Gibraltar, Mussolini in Malta (helped by the Luftwaffe), then he can leave it to the Italians to fight the British while he concentrates on Russia.
It fits Hitler's overall intentions, it only took a gamble (that Spain would not fight against Germany), so why didn't it happen?


I realize this does not solve the forward supply problems in Egypt, but it does make allied invasion of Europe very dangerous later on and help a lot getting Axis supplies to the ports available.
 
I guess the Franco question inevitably comes up when we think of alternative strategies against Britain. We all know that Franco wanted no part in the axis camp, but is it impossible that so much pressure could be brought to bear that he would join it.
Naturally, Hitler would not want to be drawn into a war in Spain, but it is not unlike his nature to gamble that he wouldn't have to?

If one imagines, soon after the fall of France as it becomes clear Britain doesn't surrender and Hitler decides he really wants to go east, he then decides that with Spain in Gibraltar, Mussolini in Malta (helped by the Luftwaffe), then he can leave it to the Italians to fight the British while he concentrates on Russia.
It fits Hitler's overall intentions, it only took a gamble (that Spain would not fight against Germany), so why didn't it happen?


I realize this does not solve the forward supply problems in Egypt, but it does make allied invasion of Europe very dangerous later on and help a lot getting Axis supplies to the ports available.

Not really, the problem with Spain is where it is, sticking out into the Atlantic...the Atlantic is Allied territory effectively. Recruiting Spain would effectively be an instant Second Front™ for Germany. The British gain ports in Portugal where they can land supplies and troops and before long the Germans are committing much larger forces to Spain than they ever were to Africa.

"Wherever wood can swim, there I am sure to find this flag of England," Warned Napoleon and while the bottoms are now made out of metal the same principal applies, if it is wet and salty it belongs to the Allies.

The problem always for Hitler was carrots and sticks. He could threaten to invade. That worked against the more inland nations. The Allies stick was they can kill the overseas trade of any nation that joins the Axis in addition they can bribe people with loads of American goodies. If Spain goes hot for the Axis then Portugal just about has to flip to the Allies. Otherwise it loses its overseas possessions and trade and worse probably gets given to Spain to compensate them for the loss of Morocco etc.

British and American shipping supplying troops and weapons and logistic necessities to Portugal have to face no extra submarines and a lot shorter sea voyage than to do the same for 8th Army. Spain really just complicates Hitler's strategic picture as an active ally.
 
If one imagines, soon after the fall of France as it becomes clear Britain doesn't surrender and Hitler decides he really wants to go east, he then decides that with Spain in Gibraltar, Mussolini in Malta (helped by the Luftwaffe), then he can leave it to the Italians to fight the British while he concentrates on Russia.
None of which helps much in North Africa, since only a handful of small convoys ever went via the Gibraltar Strait, and those were usually partially to top up Malta, so it increases the logistics cost of running to Africa and Asia a tiny bit, but that's all, yet at the same time means that North Africa is won by the time Japan hits PH, because Italy's own capabilities of resisting the British are minimal.
 
Italy and Spain didn't think they were minors, but after the Fall of France and before the BoB Hitler had such an aura of invincibility that if he went down to Spain and told Franco join me it would have happened.

Just no.

He did try. In real history. Study real history before venturing in alternate history. The word you should look for is Hendaye.
 
Just no.

He did try. In real history. Study real history before venturing in alternate history. The word you should look for is Hendaye.

Sending Canaris who ended up arguing to Franco that Spain should stay out of the war 'after the BoB' is called disinterest.

Hitler had no interest in Africa other the to keep the center from falling from Itay. Everything was about his dream of Empire in the East.
 
Hendaye

The memory of his meeting with Franco, which took place at the frontier town of Hendaye on 23 October, never ceased to vex Hitler. Instead of succumbing, as he was expected to do, to Hitler's confidant assertions of German victory and Britain's defeat, Franco asked awkward questions, and evaded any commitment to Hitler's offer of a treaty which would bring Spain into the war in January 1941 and provided her with German help in capturing Gibraltar. Hitler had to accept the failure of his effort after nine hours of talks, "rather than go through which again', he told Mussolini, "he would prefer to have three or four teeth taken out'.
Alan Bullock, Parallel Lives
 
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