Roman India

Thande · Nov 9, 2007

The extent of Roman sea trade with India appears to be revised upwards by archaeologists yearly, as more Roman trade settlements along the western coast of India are uncovered. It certainly seems to rival that of the later European East India Companies...and can you see where I'm going with this?

Could we see something analogous to the Mughal collapse earlier, presumably if the Gupta Empire is never established, and Roman traders (but not necessarily on state business, acting independently) begin playing Indian statelets off each other like the East India Companies did later on?

Probably very unlikely - but extremely cool - would be a Peshawar Lancers type scenario where an extensive Roman trading colony is established across parts of India (with a large Romano-Indian minority) and this survives as a separate state when Rome proper falls to the barbarian invasions as OTL, perhaps aligning with Byzantium later on...

Ran Exilis · Nov 9, 2007

*shudders because of the extreme coolness*

Very interesting indeed, Thande!

And such a Roman-Indian colony could also result in some very interesting religious developments, including, of course, early Christianity (as in; the travels and writings of the apostle Thomas having a much bigger impact on mainstream Christianity - we could see a See of Thomas in this Roman-Indian colony that is much like the See of Peter in Rome, and a Roman-India based Church that is completely independant), but also the gnostic and polytheistic cults, religions and philosophies.

For example; this Roman-Indian colony could become a pagan remnant of the Roman Empire where the old pagan religion and the Greek philosophies survive and thrive.

But there is also the possebility that Buddhism and various Hindu cults and movements find their way into the Roman Empire through this colony.

It would be very interesting to see if the Romans are introduced to the concept of Karma, and a Roman religious movement dedicated to the worship of Shiva would be cool on so many levels.

Flocculencio · Nov 9, 2007

It's a very cool idea but instead of a big trading empire in the interior I suggest a venice-like thallasocracy based at Cochin would be more feasible, comtrolling the spice trade from the Indies.

It could be ruled by a senate and practice an amalgam of Hinduism and Western European Paganism

Ave, Vishnu, Optimus Maximus!

Thande · Nov 9, 2007

Flocculencio said:
It's a very cool idea but instead of a big trading empire in the interior I suggest a venice-like thallasocracy based at Cochin would be more feasible, comtrolling the spice trade from the Indies.

Ooh, that's also interesting...especially if stuff in the west happens more or less without butterflies, and then European traders come to find this recognisably Roman state (assuming it survives all the various Indian upheavals)...I think European antiquitaries would die of happiness

Religiously, I prefer the idea of it being a Thomasine Christian state officially, although as with all states in India there will be a massively diverse range of beliefs in there in reality. Would be interesting to see how they interact with Portuguese Catholics if they show up at the same time as OTL.

Ran Exilis · Nov 9, 2007

Thande said:
Religiously, I prefer the idea of it being a Thomasine Christian state officially, although as with all states in India there will be a massively diverse range of beliefs in there in reality. Would be interesting to see how they interact with Portuguese Catholics if they show up at the same time as OTL.

Well, such an independant Thomasine Church would not be dependant on the Mesopotamia-based Church of the East for appointing bishops, so these ATL Thomasine Christians will be a lot more resistant to any Portugese attempts to convert them to Roman (heh) Catholicism.

I guess that the interactions between these Thomasine Indo-Romans and the Portugese would be a lot like the interactions between the Portugese and Ethiopians in OTL.

Rocano · Nov 9, 2007

India emerges as Power after Fall of Rome current Delhi becomes Third Rome. India ruled by Eastern Orthodoxy.

Thande · Nov 9, 2007

Ran Exilis said:
Well, such an independant Thomasine Church would not be dependant on the Mesopotamia-based Church of the East for appointing bishops, so these ATL Thomasine Christians will be a lot more resistant to any Portugese attempts to convert them to Roman (heh) Catholicism.

I guess that the interactions between these Thomasine Indo-Romans and the Portugese would be a lot like the interactions between the Portugese and Ethiopians in OTL.

I like that analogy. Of course the "Roman" thing is just as ironic in OTL, given that the Byzantines thought of themselves as Romans and the Fourth Crusade and so forth...

Flocculencio · Nov 9, 2007

Rocano said:
India emerges as Power after Fall of Rome current Delhi becomes Third Rome. India ruled by Eastern Orthodoxy.

First, of course, there's the problem of somehow uniting India.

The Romans working from colonies ain't going to be able to manage it.

A Thomasine city-state based at Cochin is certainly doable- taking the whole of India is not.

Philip · Nov 9, 2007

Thande said:
The extent of Roman sea trade with India appears to be revised upwards by archaeologists yearly, as more Roman trade settlements along the western coast of India are uncovered. It certainly seems to rival that of the later European East India Companies...and can you see where I'm going with this?

Do my Jews reaching India and SE Asia have any influence in this?

Ran Exilis said:
I guess that the interactions between these Thomasine Indo-Romans and the Portugese would be a lot like the interactions between the Portugese and Ethiopians in OTL.

I think this could be a good model. Is there someone in India to play the role of the Arab Muslims from the Portuguese-Ethiopia interaction?

Syphon · Nov 9, 2007

Flocculencio said:
First, of course, there's the problem of somehow uniting India.

The Romans working from colonies ain't going to be able to manage it.

A Thomasine city-state based at Cochin is certainly doable- taking the whole of India is not.

What about about independent Roman city state on the Indian coast line mutually supporting each each other from attack.

There is another point to make here as well the standard way of long distance travel by the Romans was to sail hugging the coastlines.

If they were to try to find a sea route to rival the silk road there is a good possibility of the Romans finding Western Australia.

Wouldn't it be fun to have an Indo-Roman empire that develops in Australasia.

Atom · Nov 9, 2007

If there was a christian state in India, how would that effect the religous make up of India?

Flocculencio · Nov 10, 2007

Atom said:
If there was a christian state in India, how would that effect the religous make up of India?

Not very much- in OTL there were already lots of Christians in Malabar. The only thing TTL is doing is giving them some political power and links to a Roman past.

fortyseven · Nov 10, 2007

a Christian, Indo-Roman thalassocracy

Maybe they could set up direct trade with the Byzantines.

and of course later on... To the Holy Land, we must reclaim the land of Jesus, Avatar of Vishnu from the heathen Musulmans

Promethean · Nov 10, 2007

If india could get completely romano/India the persians would have 2 fronts with both roman warmachines + elephants.

this could be an expansion of Equinox timeline where ceasar is not assasinated

Ridwan Asher · Nov 10, 2007

fortyseven said:
a Christian, Indo-Roman thalassocracy

Maybe they could set up direct trade with the Byzantines.

and of course later on... To the Holy Land, we must reclaim the land of Jesus, Avatar of Vishnu from the heathen Musulmans

I don't think that would be possible. Once there be Muslims, they will loose the contact with the west and thus, much like Ethiopia IOTL, they will be live on their own from then. I think that Christian India would even gonna get friendly towards the Muslims instead. That choice is just better for them than to make enemy of the Muslims and got crushed by them afterwards.

Flocculencio · Nov 10, 2007

Xenophobo-phobic guy said:
I don't think that would be possible. Once there be Muslims, they will loose the contact with the west and thus, much like Ethiopia IOTL, they will be live on their own from then. I think that Christian India would even gonna get friendly towards the Muslims instead. That choice is just better for them than to make enemy of the Muslims and got crushed by them afterwards.

That assumes that there'll be Muslims in TTL. Perhaps a young *Muhammad goes on a trading voyage to Malabar and is overawed by the glory and magnificence of the Senate and People of Cochin that he converts to Thomasine Christianity.

I actually remember doing a TL about a more significant Syrian Christianity in S. India which had something like this happen.

Ridwan Asher · Nov 10, 2007

Flocculencio said:
That assumes that there'll be Muslims in TTL. Perhaps a young *Muhammad goes on a trading voyage to Malabar and is overawed by the glory and magnificence of the Senate and People of Cochin that he converts to Thomasine Christianity.

I actually remember doing a TL about a more significant Syrian Christianity in S. India which had something like this happen.

I don't think that'll be possible. To be able to go to Malabar, the closest route is first to Yemen or Hadramaut(basically southern Arab coast) then board on ship from there to Malabar. Muhammad had never traveled to Yemen when he was young IOTL. And I doubt that he had ever been Yemen for just once in his lifetime. Mecca wasn't in good terms with Yemen in those days anyway.

fortyseven · Nov 10, 2007

Flocculencio said:
That assumes that there'll be Muslims in TTL.

I know. Or maybe Zoroastrian Persia conquers the Holy Land.

Fabilius · Nov 10, 2007

I really must say this is an awesome idea.

But even though it might not be able to take over India they might influence things a lot.

Imagine:

AD 300 the republic of Cochin founded.

AD 500 first colonies founded in Indonesia.

I mean in OTL there were lots of trade and colonisation going on between India and south eastern asia, (I'm right on this right?) so even if this republic is limited to the shores in India, there is no saying they cannot found citystates in other places a few hundred years later when they have the demographics.

Who knows,

Post roman traders arrive to Japan 1200. Emissaries from the republic in the court of Kublai Khan in Pekin... Emissaries from the republic introduce to Marco Polo long lost greek manuscripts.

Romano-indian traders found a citystates in the area of OTL singapore... Or get involved in the philippines. Discover Australia.

There is no saying what they'd be able to do in Asia even though Europe might take a conventional trajectory. The indian ocean is an interesting sphere.

The coast of Africa is also pretty...

Ridwan Asher · Nov 10, 2007

Fabilius said:
I really must say this is an awesome idea.

But even though it might not be able to take over India they might influence things a lot.

Imagine:

AD 300 the republic of Cochin founded.

AD 500 first colonies founded in Indonesia.

I mean in OTL there were lots of trade and colonisation going on between India and south eastern asia, (I'm right on this right?) so even if this republic is limited to the shores in India, there is no saying they cannot found citystates in other places a few hundred years later when they have the demographics.

Who knows,

Post roman traders arrive to Japan 1200. Emissaries from the republic in the court of Kublai Khan in Pekin... Emissaries from the republic introduce to Marco Polo long lost greek manuscripts.

Romano-indian traders found a citystates in the area of OTL singapore... Or get involved in the philippines. Discover Australia.

There is no saying what they'd be able to do in Asia even though Europe might take a conventional trajectory. The indian ocean is an interesting sphere.

The coast of Africa is also pretty...

Quite nice suggestion. But why should there be Marco Polo and Kubilai Khan ITTL and TTL bare some vital similarities with OTL ?