Roman India

[Thande]

If the South Indian states (say south of the Deccan) adopt European style heavy-infantry shock warfare they'd be more likely to avoid conquest by a North Indian empire or European empires or whoever else.

Most probably, although division vs. union would also be important. Europeans could still get influence by backing one faction against another, but they most probably wouldn't have the lasting power that came from being the only ones with sepoy boots on the ground.

 

[Flocculencio]

That's true. The Romans probably aren't going to be invaded every five minutes by cavalry nomads as the Byzantines (and, indeed, the northern Indians) were, so maybe Roman infantry traditions are retained...

I wonder if the auxiliary system would exist there - it might be a recipe for gradual expansion into the hinterland.

Yeah, they'd probably need auxiliaries for expansion. If the SPQC (as I shall call their government from now on ) manages to transplant the legion system they'd certainly be able to hold Kerala without many problems. However, expansion into the Deccan would mean dealing with horse archers.

 

[The Federation]

So why not start dealing with the Indonesians? Make it a sort of Chola Empire based out of Sri Lanka - contained, easily defendable if you have a navy, prosperous - with holdings in Indonesia and at major trading posts on the Indian shores.

 

[Douglas]

So why not start dealing with the Indonesians? Make it a sort of Chola Empire based out of Sri Lanka - contained, easily defendable if you have a navy, prosperous - with holdings in Indonesia and at major trading posts on the Indian shores.

Well, we're assuming that it's based out of Cochin...but expansion into Indonesia sounds very cool...sort of a Venice of the East.

 

[M79]

Three ideas for you:

1) Refugees fleeing from Augustus's rule after Marc Antony's fall in the East settle on Sri Lanka, eventually forming a large city and slowly taking over the island under a Republic that has many of the scrolls from the Great Library. It slowly grows to take over parts of Southern India and colonizes much of modern Malaysia, Indonesia, Australia, and more. By 1000 AD the maritime empire stretches from South Africa to Madagascar to much of Southern India to Australia to New Zealand and Formosa, perhaps Sakhalin Island. They trade with everyone and have become very rich, as well as the undisputed maritime masters of the world.

2) Traders from Rome establish a large enclave in the Southern part of the island that becomes gorged with refugees as Rome falls and again as Islam moves through the Levant and Egypt. They slowly grow to take over the island and have colonies in various areas, but slowly lose their Roman identity as a polyglot Republic emerges. Its technology and martial prowess are undisputed as they must face stiff Tamil resistance on the mainland to expand, eventually focusing on naval and maritime trade running from southern Africa to Egypt to India to China to New Guinea and perhaps to medieval Japan too.

3) Roman refugees merge with a local government and form a quasi-Roman state with very unique architecture and a penchant for conquest, they survive for centuries and have a strong Tamil and Buddhist influence.

 

[Flocculencio]

I'm not sure why Sri Lanka is seen as a good site- it's much more politically cohesive than the mainland and is thus going to be harder to conquer. Seconedly, the trade route patterns will mean that the largest Roman community is most likely going to be in Cochin (as was the case with the Jews, Arabs and Syrian Christians in OTL). Cochin has an excellent harbour, is pretty defensible and up until the 17th century was pretty much the most important port in India. This is why I feel that if a Romanised city-state were to be established, Cochin would be it.

 

[Grand_Panjandrum]

A most interesting idea. I suppose it would be called India. I wonder what they would make of the Indo-Greeks, if it is established early enough. Perhaps they could have prevented their fall?

 

[Flocculencio]

A most interesting idea. I suppose it would be called India. I wonder what they would make of the Indo-Greeks, if it is established early enough. Perhaps they could have prevented their fall?

I think it would have to be really early for them to cross paths with the Indo-Greeks. Plus the trade routes they used would make their settlements at the complete opposite end of the subcontinent.

As for naming the land, India was used for the subcontinent as a whole. They'd probably name their land after the city they controlled.

As for the siting of the settlement- it seems that Cochin only rose to prominence later. The major trading city before that was Cranganore which is referenced as "Muziris" by Pliny the Elder. Thus, we could work on the assumption that they might use that name, possibly a bit more Romanised. SPQM?

 

[Fabilius]

I like the idea of keeping roman infantrymen tradition alive, but I don't really see them as a major land power.

What would a Thomasine christian republic have to say about the caste system?

 

[Flocculencio]

I like the idea of keeping roman infantrymen tradition alive, but I don't really see them as a major land power.

Probably not a major land power- like I said they really just need to keep Kerala secure which won't be that hard to do with good infantry. They'll concentrate more on being a sea power and controlling the spice trade from the East Indies and the infantry will probably be used mostly as marines.

What would a Thomasine christian republic have to say about the caste system?

It would probably adapt to it in the same way the Muslims, Syrian Christians and (later) the Catholics of OTL did. In OTL, the Syrian Christians were basically slotted into the kshatriya caste and took on the role of gentry. It may pretty much be the same in TTL except that the Christians will take on the role of aristocracy as well as that of gentry- you'll probably end up with an amalgam of the Roman class system (Senators/Equestrians/Plebs) and the caste system. I am, of course, dealing with a scenario where the city-state is established with Republican ideals in mind.

I'm assuming that their ideology would be that it was the Emperors who brought decay into Rome and that now with Christianity they had a chance to make a more perfect new beginning.

 

[Hendryk]

It could be ruled by a senate and practice an amalgam of Hinduism and Western European Paganism

So far the consensus in this thread seems to be about making the colony's religion Thomasite Christianity, but this suggestion could be interesting as well. In OTL what made classical polytheism unable to resist the empire's takeover by Christianity was its lack of spiritual vitality and philosophical coherence; it could get an influx of both from Hinduism, which is, after all, its distant relative.

Incidentally, militarily speaking does this mean that we have a good chance of importing European style heavy-infantry shock warfare to India? That could have some major repercussions too,

Whatever else happens, if this development takes place, that could give India a much better chance of being unified, and in any case of resisting European meddling.

 

[Flocculencio]

I don't know if the chances of Indian unification are any higher- Muziris' focus is going to be on the sea. There's no real incentive for them to expand inland beyond their natural borders in the Western Ghats.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Finally, a real third Rome!

 

[Thande]

I wonder how "Cochin" would be rendered in Latin...

 

[Flocculencio]

I wonder how "Cochin" would be rendered in Latin...

See earlier for my post re Pliny's mention of the region. Apparently the major port was Cranganore, near Cochin, and he refers to it as Muziris.

 

[Hendryk]

I don't know if the chances of Indian unification are any higher- Muziris' focus is going to be on the sea. There's no real incentive for them to expand inland beyond their natural borders in the Western Ghats.

Indeed, but give it a few centuries, and all of the subcontinent will in all likelihood become acquainted with the concept.

 

[DominusNovus]

Hmmm...

If the Indo-Romans decide to retain their infantry tradition at all (might be at odds with them becoming a maritime power), how might this effect Indian warfare? Weren't they not keen on heavy infantry, to their own detriment?

 

[Flocculencio]

Hmmm...

If the Indo-Romans decide to retain their infantry tradition at all (might be at odds with them becoming a maritime power), how might this effect Indian warfare? Weren't they not keen on heavy infantry, to their own detriment?

I don't think it would be at odds- after all if they're building a thallassocracy, they'll need an effective force of marines to hold their trading posts and fight off pirates.

As for Indian warfare- the introduction of heavy infantry would be revolutionary. I think it would mean quite a bit of societal change as you need more professional armies to maintain heavy infantry.

 

[Thande]

I don't think it would be at odds- after all if they're building a thallassocracy, they'll need an effective force of marines to hold their trading posts and fight off pirates.

As for Indian warfare- the introduction of heavy infantry would be revolutionary. I think it would mean quite a bit of societal change as you need more professional armies to maintain heavy infantry.

Possible effect on [stereotypical Westerner] Dah-dah-dah!!! the caste system? [/stereotypical Westerner]

 

[Flocculencio]

Possible effect on [stereotypical Westerner] Dah-dah-dah!!! the caste system? [/stereotypical Westerner]

Heheh- I think we should just assume that the caste system will adapt itself to the new situation and carry on business as usual. It's not going to disappear and it's a lot more flexible than most westerners seem to think it is.