Roman India

Especially if that campaign against Arabia Felix succeeded and Rome captured Yemen and Oman. They would be in a great position to take parts of India.

Why not try to take Sri Lanka so they don't have to go against the entire Indian subcontinent? It was where the spices came from
 
I don't think that would be possible. Once there be Muslims, they will loose the contact with the west and thus, much like Ethiopia IOTL, they will be live on their own from then.

Actually, a Thomasine Indo-Roman state would be in a far better position than OTL Ethiopia for at least two reasons.

The first reason is the fact that this Indo-Roman state is much further away from the core Muslim territories; the southern Red Sea was the only thing that stood between Yemen and Ethiopia, and the Red Sea was effectively dominated by the Arabs, whereas Arab/Islamic political influence would be rather small in southern India.

And the second reason is that the Coptic Patriarch of (Muslim-held) Alexandria was also the supreme leader of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, and throughout much of history, the Muslim rulers of Egypt have used the Patriarch of Alexandria to exert influence over Nubia and Ethiopia.

But the Patriarch of this Thomasine Indo-Roman Church would not reside in Muslim-held territory, and therefore, the Muslims would have effectively no influence on the religious hierarchy of the Thomasine Church.

I think that Christian India would even gonna get friendly towards the Muslims instead. That choice is just better for them than to make enemy of the Muslims and got crushed by them afterwards.

And exactly how would the Muslims do that?

A strong Indo-Roman thallasocracy with a powerful fleet would be more than a match for the Muslims at sea.

And on land, the Muslim conquerors didn't reach southern India until the 14th century, and even then, the southern Indian states were (briefly) vassalized rather than conquered. An actual Muslim conquest of southern India didn't happen until the 16th century.

If the Indo-Romans would make an enemy of the Muslims, they'll still be able to last for many centuries againest them, even if the Muslim conquest of India still happens ITTL and proceeds much like it did in OTL.

And there have been nations in the past that were in a far worse position againest the Muslims, and yet successfully resisted for centuries (Makuria comes to mind, as does Ethiopia, the Georgian kingdoms, and even the local Zoroastrian nobles in the Alborz mountains and Tabarestan, who did not submit to the Muslims until the 9th century).


..
On a related note; if the Indo-Romans would become enemies of the Muslims, then it is actually not unlikely that this would slow or halt the spread of Islam in south and southeast Asia for centuries, perhaps even indefinitely, judging from the fact that Arab Muslim merciants in southern India and South Indian converts played a very important role in the Islamisation of southeast Asia in OTL.

In OTL, Islam became a major religion in the Indonesian archipelago during the 14th century, and Islam had taken root in the region during the 13th century with the rise of the first Muslim city states on the peninsula and Sumatra.

But the thing is; would Islam still take root in southeast Asia in a TL where both the influence of Arab merciants as well as the spread of Islam are being frustrated/halted by a Christian Indo-Roman state that effectively controls the trade routes between southeast Asia and southwest Asia?

IMHO, Islam still could take root in southeast Asia in such a scenario (quite possibly via Bengal, provided that the Muslim conquest of India still happens as in OTL) - but wether it could become the dominant religion there just like in OTL is a very different question.

If Islam is not firmly established in southeast Asia when the Europeans begin to dominate the area, then the odds are that Islam will never become the dominant religion there at all

I don't think that'll be possible. To be able to go to Malabar, the closest route is first to Yemen or Hadramaut(basically southern Arab coast) then board on ship from there to Malabar. Muhammad had never traveled to Yemen when he was young IOTL. And I doubt that he had ever been Yemen for just once in his lifetime. Mecca wasn't in good terms with Yemen in those days anyway.

I'm inclined to agree that Mohammed propably wouldn't end up in this Indo-Roman colony (it would be more likely that he ends up in Syria, and IIRC, he had been Syria when he was young IOTL).

In my opinion, it is more likely that Mohammed would be butterflied away alltogether, because a strong Roman colony in India would result in a (much) stronger Roman presence/influence in the Red Sea, which could very well affect the economic and political situation of the nations and territories surrounding the Red Sea, including the Hijaz.

For example, it's quite possible that a coastal city or village in the Hijaz that remained fairly unimportant during this period in OTL, would become an important port on the trade route between the Roman Empire and its Indian colony, and that, say, the man who became the great-grandfather of Mohammed in OTL decided to work in that port instead, thus changing his life, and quite possibly resulting in him marrying a different woman than in OTL, resulting in Mohammed not being born.
 
Last edited:
Quite nice suggestion. But why should there be Marco Polo and Kubilai Khan ITTL and TTL bare some vital similarities with OTL ?


Provided the Roman Empire falls on schedule (and there is no reason it shouldn't), major changes and butterflies should mostly be limited to India and the Indo sphere of influence (Southeast Asia and Oceania). Sea-faring technology of the time wasn't advanced enough for these Romans to be circumnavigating Africa anytime soon, for instance.

What should be interesting is what happens when these Romans eventually adopt Hindu-numerals. One of the greatest things holding back Greek and Roman sciences and mathematics was that it was virtually impossible to do anything more complicated than multiplication with their current number systems. Switching to a decimal system would help immensely.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Provided the Roman Empire falls on schedule (and there is no reason it shouldn't), major changes and butterflies should mostly be limited to India and the Indo sphere of influence (Southeast Asia and Oceania). Sea-faring technology of the time wasn't advanced enough for these Romans to be circumnavigating Africa anytime soon, for instance.

I dunno; I posted a thread a few years ago aboutt how this might lead to an agricultural revolution in the Roman World.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/di...highlight="classical+agricultural+revolution"

Then there's the effects of a presumably even larger than OTL gold drain to India.

I feel like the conquest of Felix Arabia, and possibly also Mesopotamia, is a preqquisite for even greater than OTL Roman interest in India.
 
What should be interesting is what happens when these Romans eventually adopt Hindu-numerals. One of the greatest things holding back Greek and Roman sciences and mathematics was that it was virtually impossible to do anything more complicated than multiplication with their current number systems. Switching to a decimal system would help immensely.

That's a very good point, actually...

It's quite possible that a Greek or Roman philosopher or mathematician studies the basics of Indian mathematics for a while in the Indo-Roman colony, and then travels back to Rome or one of the other cities in the Empire, where he then introduces a new system of mathematics, based on Indian numerals.

...and indeed, switching to Indian numerals would have a profound effect on the Roman and European sciences, and on the development of Europe as a whole.
 
Especially if that campaign against Arabia Felix succeeded and Rome captured Yemen and Oman. They would be in a great position to take parts of India.

Why not try to take Sri Lanka so they don't have to go against the entire Indian subcontinent? It was where the spices came from

I like this. That way, Roman-influenced culture can exist virtually unthreatened by mainland wars...

That's a very good point, actually...

It's quite possible that a Greek or Roman philosopher or mathematician studies the basics of Indian mathematics for a while in the Indo-Roman colony, and then travels back to Rome or one of the other cities in the Empire, where he then introduces a new system of mathematics, based on Indian numerals.

...and indeed, switching to Indian numerals would have a profound effect on the Roman and European sciences, and on the development of Europe as a whole.

Are the Romans willing to change their entire number system overnight? What if this mathematician is dismissed as a crackpot in Europe, but hailed as a genius by the Romans in India? How long would it take for Rome to admit that its system is flawed?
 
Are the Romans willing to change their entire number system overnight? What if this mathematician is dismissed as a crackpot in Europe, but hailed as a genius by the Romans in India? How long would it take for Rome to admit that its system is flawed?

Well, the introduction of Indian numerals in the Roman Empire doesn't need to happen, but it remains a likely possebility nonetheless.

And the change certainly wouldn't be overnight - after all, the change from Roman to Arab-Indian numerals in OTL Europe didn't happen overnight either.

The Indian numerals, the decimal system, and the number zero have their merits, and even though it's pretty much a given fact that there will be people in the Roman Empire who will dismiss it, I'd be quite suprised if no-one in the Roman Empire would be willing to see the advantages of this Indian system.
 
Are the Romans willing to change their entire number system overnight? What if this mathematician is dismissed as a crackpot in Europe, but hailed as a genius by the Romans in India? How long would it take for Rome to admit that its system is flawed?

It isn't likely to be carried over by mathematicians (Roman Mathematics were sufficiently atrophied by their numeral handicap that they aren't likely to realize the benefit immediately), but rather by merchants. A decimal numeric system would cause such an obvious benefit to one's business that traders would be crazy not to adopt it. In this age before nationalism, they aren't going to see any reason to stick with the old system. Worse comes to worst, they reform their own system to decimal.

Depending upon how long it takes to reach the Empire proper, this could conceivably used as a PoD to cause a survival of some part of the Empire in the West, provided these trader's numbers eventually find their way into more academic institutions (perhaps south-east Mediterranean ports being the first to adopt this new system, eventually finding its way north into Greece, the center of Roman learning). Science in general was retarded by the Romano-Greek numerals, but economics especially. Once economics becomes a viable field of study, perhaps someone will notice the damage Rome is doing to its Western provinces.

Of course, the romantic (ha!) in me wants to envision this introduction as the spark necessary for an early Renaissance and perhaps a survival of the pagan Hellenic culture of science which fell to the way-side in the later Empire and subsequent Middle Ages (even Charlemagne, champion of education in his time, failed to properly embrace empiricism because of his dogmatic Christianity, also because of the fact that Europe had still yet to adopt a decimal numeral system). A classical world which never falls, that is. It's still a long way off from an agri-cultural and thus industrial revolution, but it sets down the foundations which OTL took a thousand years until the Italian Renaissance to rebuild.

Imagine a world with a mostly united Europe, a Persian superpower (Persia herself would benefit immensely from a Renaissance in Romania; knowledge is incredibly difficult to contain with lines on maps), a surviving Hellenic culture (the Romans were, afterall, first and foremost Greco-philes), etc etc.

Of course, as I say, this is mostly romantic idealism. The introduction of Hindu numerals, for instance, would not necessarily lead to any sort of enlightenment and liberalization of Roman society. The fundaments of feudal power divisions were still there (the patrician-plebeian divide) and there's no guarantee that this could save the Roman economy (and thus Empire). Western Europe could still undergo reverse urbanization and all the economic disaster that entails. It still might lead to an earlier renaissance, though. Perhaps in Ostrogothic Italy instead of late medieval Italy? In Byzantine Greece?
 
It isn't likely to be carried over by mathematicians (Roman Mathematics were sufficiently atrophied by their numeral handicap that they aren't likely to realize the benefit immediately), but rather by merchants. A decimal numeric system would cause such an obvious benefit to one's business that traders would be crazy not to adopt it. In this age before nationalism, they aren't going to see any reason to stick with the old system. Worse comes to worst, they reform their own system to decimal.

Depending upon how long it takes to reach the Empire proper, this could conceivably used as a PoD to cause a survival of some part of the Empire in the West, provided these trader's numbers eventually find their way into more academic institutions (perhaps south-east Mediterranean ports being the first to adopt this new system, eventually finding its way north into Greece, the center of Roman learning). Science in general was retarded by the Romano-Greek numerals, but economics especially. Once economics becomes a viable field of study, perhaps someone will notice the damage Rome is doing to its Western provinces.

Of course, the romantic (ha!) in me wants to envision this introduction as the spark necessary for an early Renaissance and perhaps a survival of the pagan Hellenic culture of science which fell to the way-side in the later Empire and subsequent Middle Ages (even Charlemagne, champion of education in his time, failed to properly embrace empiricism because of his dogmatic Christianity, also because of the fact that Europe had still yet to adopt a decimal numeral system). A classical world which never falls, that is. It's still a long way off from an agri-cultural and thus industrial revolution, but it sets down the foundations which OTL took a thousand years until the Italian Renaissance to rebuild.

Imagine a world with a mostly united Europe, a Persian superpower (Persia herself would benefit immensely from a Renaissance in Romania; knowledge is incredibly difficult to contain with lines on maps), a surviving Hellenic culture (the Romans were, afterall, first and foremost Greco-philes), etc etc.

Of course, as I say, this is mostly romantic idealism. The introduction of Hindu numerals, for instance, would not necessarily lead to any sort of enlightenment and liberalization of Roman society. The fundaments of feudal power divisions were still there (the patrician-plebeian divide) and there's no guarantee that this could save the Roman economy (and thus Empire). Western Europe could still undergo reverse urbanization and all the economic disaster that entails. It still might lead to an earlier renaissance, though. Perhaps in Ostrogothic Italy instead of late medieval Italy? In Byzantine Greece?

I'm liking this "romantic" vision of yours, Railman! As for the Roman economy, how about Indian spices as a cure? After all, let's not get carried away with Europe here; this is supposed to be about Roman India, remember? :p
 
I'm liking this "romantic" vision of yours, Railman! As for the Roman economy, how about Indian spices as a cure? After all, let's not get carried away with Europe here; this is supposed to be about Roman India, remember? :p


Well, as to Roman India, it depends how it's done. A Sri Lanka based trading colony? Many years down the line we may see a pretty Latinized island off the sub-continent with recognizably Roman culture. On the mainland? It's more likely that the Roman culture is subsumed into some greater polity around it over time. Indian history isn't actually my strong point, however, so I couldn't really comment on exact effects.

Of course, the introduction of advanced forms of government (or, rather, re-introduction -- the world's first 'republics' were in India) could lead to a more stable sub-continental Empire sometime in the future. Perhaps the Kushan Empire never falls?
 

Thande

Donor
I hadn't considered the number system thing, good point.

Glad to see this has provoked a lot of discussion.
 
Ceylon is your best bet for a solidly Roman colony, they might form a hybrid culture that influences the Tamils and/or colonize the East Indies or other areas as redoubts later on. A Roman Formosa, New Zealand/Australia, and New Guinea are possibilities.

Roman Australia alone would be very cool...
 

Thande

Donor
But how quickly would the Romano-Indians loose their 'Romano' cultural identity.

IMO they would never lose it, though it would inevitably change and take on a lot of Indian elements. Look at groups like the Parsees, they've been in India for over a thousand years yet still retain their Persian and Zoroastrian identity.
 
I still think Cochin is a better bet- it's already established as the major trading port on the Malabar coast and the politics of the area are less cohesive than the Sri Lankan kingdoms. It already had a large non-native population so it's your best bet for an independent Romanised city-state.

Incidentally, militarily speaking does this mean that we have a good chance of importing European style heavy-infantry shock warfare to India? That could have some major repercussions too,
 

Thande

Donor
Incidentally, militarily speaking does this mean that we have a good chance of importing European style heavy-infantry shock warfare to India? That could have some major repercussions too,
Not sure. After all, the Byzantines lost that tradition...
 
Not sure. After all, the Byzantines lost that tradition...

Depends on when it's established and when it breaks free, I guess.

I do like the idea of it setting itself up as an autonomous urban republic- their national identity could be based around being Republican Rome reborn
 
Not sure. After all, the Byzantines lost that tradition...

Also, cavalry warfare is going to be hard to develop in South-East India. Kerala's terrain is much like a tropical version of Greece Lots of hills and inlets of the sea with some floodplains crammed in between.

Furthermore, one problem India always had was that it inherited a cavalry based military tradition but always struggled to find good bloodstock.
 

Thande

Donor
Also, cavalry warfare is going to be hard to develop in South-East India. Kerala's terrain is much like a tropical version of Greece Lots of hills and inlets of the sea with some floodplains crammed in between.
That's true. The Romans probably aren't going to be invaded every five minutes by cavalry nomads as the Byzantines (and, indeed, the northern Indians) were, so maybe Roman infantry traditions are retained...

I wonder if the auxiliary system would exist there - it might be a recipe for gradual expansion into the hinterland.
 
If the South Indian states (say south of the Deccan) adopt European style heavy-infantry shock warfare they'd be more likely to avoid conquest by a North Indian empire or European empires or whoever else.
 
Top