wi: the bismarck had encountered the uss texas in the denmark straits?

rob2001

What if before encountering the Hood and Prince of Wales, the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen had encountered the USS Texas on patrol in the Denmark Strait. I had read that by the spring of 1941 the US Navy was patrolling the Denmark Strait and the Texas had almost encountered the Prinz Eugen just after she had detached from the Bismarck.

What if she had encountered the Bismarck? Would the Bismarck have engaged the Texas or try to avoid her. What would happen if she attacked the Texas, and if she did what would end result be, and what the ramifications be between Germany and the United States? Would it mean the US would enter the war during the summer of '41? Anyone have any thoughts.
 

Zheng He

rob2001 said:
What if before encountering the Hood and Prince of Wales, the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen had encountered the USS Texas on patrol in the Denmark Strait. I had read that by the spring of 1941 the US Navy was patrolling the Denmark Strait and the Texas had almost encountered the Prinz Eugen just after she had detached from the Bismarck.

What if she had encountered the Bismarck? Would the Bismarck have engaged the Texas or try to avoid her. What would happen if she attacked the Texas, and if she did what would end result be, and what the ramifications be between Germany and the United States? Would it mean the US would enter the war during the summer of '41? Anyone have any thoughts.
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Not sure about this but I know TF-1 - two BBs, a couple of cruisers, and some destroyers was deployed to the Denmark Strait in November 1941 because intelligence indicated either TIRPITZ or SCHEER was going to come out. It turns out SCHEER was supposed to but she had engine problems.
 

rob2001

new vanguard US dreadnaughts 1914-1945

In the new vanguard book US Dreadnaughts 1914-1945, which gives details about US battleships built before WWI, it said that the USS Texas was patrolling the North Atlantic at the time that the Bismarck sank the Hood and damaged the Prince of Wales. That she narrowly missed coming across the Prinz Eugen after she was detached from the Bismarck.
 
NHBL

NHBL

Bad Day...

Texas is older, slower, and armed with lighter guns; it could be a BAD day for the USN. However, Texas has 10 guns to Bismarck's 8. We don't know what orders Texas might have had had there been an encounter. However, there's a good chance the Germans wouldn't have been able to ID the American ship quickly enough, and opened fire...
 

rob2001

weather

Also the weather at the time wasn't exactly clear, a mistake could have been made. As for her course and postion, the book unfortunately doesn't give it. If you figure out were the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen parted company, you might have a rough estimate where the Texas was.
 
marathag

marathag

Banned
I've collected some info on the ships, and post it from time to time when this WI comes up.


Bismarck was a refreshed WWI BC with more armor. If you squint at the drawings of the unbuilt 35,000 ton, 27 knot Erzatz Yorick Battlecruisers
ersatzyorck03.jpg

http://s11.invisionfree.com/shipbucket/ar/t2609.htm
You see a lot of influence on Bismarck.
dkm-bismarck-1941.gif



Using the Engagement Range of Hood/PoW vs B and PE, 20000 yards

UK MkVIIB 14" APC 1590lbs 338lbs charge 2400fpsMV 15,000yards 13.2" belt 1.95"deck penetration at 20,000yards, 11.2"belt and 2.85" deck penetration. 2rpm

The RN felt that they got burned by trying a cutting edge gun design on Nelson and Rodney, light shell with high velocity, and for the 14" the design pendulum swung back to the conservative, ending up with a gun not much advanced over the state of the art WWI 13.5" tube.

USN Mk10 14" APmk20 1500lbs 425 lbs charge 2600MV 14800yards 16" 2" deck 1.75rpm

18,800yards 14" 2.5" deck.

The USN Mk20 14" shell was about 90 pounds lighter, but 200fps faster than the RN MkVIII with better performance across the board.

Texas and New York were modernized with blisters and other underwater protection improvements, along with updated 14" guns( new style liners and different sized powder chambers) About the only thing that was not done to them, was to increase the elevation of the mounts for more range.
Also were retrofitted with the latest analog 'modern' fire control computers and new rangefinders were also added during the interwar refits.

Texas and New York were the 1939 development platforms for search and firecontrol Radars for the USN. The set on Texas was slightly superior to Bismarck: while the Set on New York was far better than either, the 80cm CXZ set on Texas could detect surface targets out past 10 miles,but tended to get knocked offline by the ships own salvos, like Bismarck's 81.5cm set

Texas in 1944 trim
uss_bb_35_texas_1944-06884.jpg


KM 15" APC 1764lbs 374lbs charge 2690MV 19685k yards 16.5" belt
2.96" deck 2.3-3 rpm

Bismarck's Base Rangefinger was larger than what was on Texas, 34 foot vs 20, but for under 20000 yards, not much of a difference, and the Main Base RF on Texas was 5 foot longer than the Barr and Stroud on PoW, she still hit Bismarck at long range.

Frederic Dreyer noted that the Bausch and Lomb rangefinders were much preferable to British installations. Here is what the USN had fitted for rangefinders
20 foot models in two gun turrets
25 foot models in three gun turrets, e.g., Pennsylvania
30 foot models in three gun turrets, e.g., New Mexico
38 foot models in three gun 16-in turrets


Bismarck has a slightly faster reload, 2.65 vs 1.75 rounds per minute while Texas has an advantage in 5" rof and tube#, (72) 5"L51 per minute vs (42) 5.9" but the 5.9 has a heavier shell.

Shipboard newspapers notes Texas won best accuracy out of the fleet in pre-war trials, and had the highest rate of fire out of the Atlantic Fleet. Texas`s 5" guns manned by the Marines had a firing rate of 6 shells a minute, Texas`s 14" guns had a firing rate average of 2 shells a minute per barrel. The Newspaper didnt mention best and worse times, just listed the average.


USN Texas Armor: 10-12" belt, turrets: 4-9"; face 14"; 4-12" conning tower; 1.5-4" decks, 5-12" barbettes, 9-11" bulkheads
Note: not 'all or nothing' armoring. Had 6.5" casemate armor.

KM Bismarck: design:warmed over SMS dreadnought from WWI, also like Texas, not entirely an 'All or Nothing' ship.
12.6" tapering main belt, turrets 5.1"top, 8.7" side, 14" face; 14" Conn. 3.1-3.7" deck, 5.7" Citadel

At under 18,800 yards, there's nothing on Bismarck that can keep out those old USN 14" shells(unlike PoW), just as nothing on Texas can keep out 15", and there were no 14" mount issues, unlike PoW.


Bismarck : 823' 5" Length x 118' 1" Beam x 29' 5" Draught
Texas : 573' 0" Length x 95' 5" Beam x 28' 5" Draught

This means Bismarck is 30.42% longer than Texas, 19.14% wider than Texas, and 3.39% deeper than Texas.

Only hope is for long range fire to slow Texas enough to get lost in the fog. After the encounter with the RN, Bismarck didn't have as much a speed advantage over the 21 knot Texas.


All in all, Texas is as dangerous to Bismarck as Rodney was.
 
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rob2001

nice one

I like your post mats that. Does any one have scenario for a battle between the two? I don't have any ideas myself.
 

rob2001

radar

The Texas was used as a testing platform for a radar system by RCA, but didn't receive a permanent one, the RCA CXAM-1 until October 1941.
 

mattep74

Texas notice Bismarck and sends a message to home base asking about what to do. Home base sends a message to UK were they are. UK home base sends intell to nearest ships.

Bismarck sees Texas and think she is Brittish. Bismarck opens fire. Shots miss and Texas send a message to Bismarck "You notice a flag on our ship perhaps, it is not the Brittish naval flag, it is a flag with stars on it"
 

sharlin

Banned
I recall reading that the blisters added to the Texas and Arkansas class ships really bit into their speed dropping them down to 20 knots when empty and 18 with a full load of fuel, it also apparently did nothing for making them better sea boats and they were apparently quite rough rides and deep rollers due to the bulges.

If the Bismark sees the Texas she's not just gonna go ACHTUNG!! ENGLANDER! and open fire. Unless visual conditions are really poor they would be able to spot that the Texas is not a R class ship, the USN's distinctive mastheads being one visual clue as well as having far less superstructure etc. Unless it really is a case of blundering into each other in heavy fog, Bismark sees the Texas and misidentifies her as an R Class ship and fires first there's really not going to be an engagement.
 

sharlin

Banned
johnboy said:
Agreed. Not going to happen unless their is a dow
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Aye, basically if it was like meeting the PoW/Hood you've got a long run in before you are within range and in that time you'd easily ID the Texas and her escorts. Its very very hard to mis-identify a turret farm like that for anything else really unless she was bow on and at extreme range, but even then you've got a lot of visual clues that say I AM A USN WARSHIP!
 

JamesHunter

Yeah probably the two ships pass close to each other, both crews get itchy trigger fingers but nothing happens. A few hours later the RN catches the Bismarck early. While its rather obvious what happened the Germans can't prove that Texas passed on a message giving the B-marks location. With russia weeks away Hitler can't afford a fight with the US (who won't be distracted), and the Germans limit themselves to teeth nashing and a couple of comments along the line of "you bastards."

After the war the signal from Texas is declassified, leading to a long debate over the violation of US neutrality. However the message turns out to be a warning to other US ships ("RN and KM ships at these cordinates battle imminent avoid area") that was "accidentally" transmited in the clear. Its not until an episode of the world at war in the 70's that the truth is admitted, and ever since there have been endless what ifs on the subject. This morning someone posted a thread on AH.com wondering what would have happened if Texas had'nt found the Bismarck.
 

rob2001

for the heck of it

Let's just say for the heck of it, the Bismarck runs into the USS Texas and the Bismarck does mistake her for a R class battleship. With the information that has already been given, which ship do you think would fare better in a fight? I know it probably wouldn't happen, but let's just have a little fun.
 
Cymraeg

Cymraeg

rob2001 said:
Let's just say for the heck of it, the Bismarck runs into the USS Texas and the Bismarck does mistake her for a R class battleship. With the information that has already been given, which ship do you think would fare better in a fight? I know it probably wouldn't happen, but let's just have a little fun.
Click to expand...

Bar fight for the first five minutes, depending on the circumstances. If the Bismarck jumps the gun and makes the faulty assumption that the battleship is British then they fire first. The Americans will want to defend themselves, but the question is, what happens once Lutjens hears that the ship they're firing against is, oops, an American one? Cease fire and turn away, hoping that the Texas will do likewise? That's the logical option. Question is, if there is a fast and furious exchange of fire in that limited amount of time, what kind of damage would be done to each side in that time?
 

Dilvish

The Avalanche Press game Bismarck has a battle scenario between Bismarck and USS Texas (with her escorting destroyers).

Both Texas and her sister USS New York were conducting gunnery exercises in the western Atlantic at the time of Bismarck's sortie. The ships conducted their exercises separately - I imagine they were also maintaining a presence in the western Atlantic. Late at night, Bismarck passed through the area where Texas had been exercising a couple of days before.

The battle likely would have been at night, with the USS Texas having three escorting destroyers.
 

Mike Stearns

rob2001 said:
Let's just say for the heck of it, the Bismarck runs into the USS Texas and the Bismarck does mistake her for a R class battleship. With the information that has already been given, which ship do you think would fare better in a fight? I know it probably wouldn't happen, but let's just have a little fun.
Click to expand...

The Texas is of roughly the same vintage as the Hood. Considering what the Bismark did to the Hood, and that with significant upgrades over her original specs, I'd say that bad things happen to the Texas.
 
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