wi: the bismarck had encountered the uss texas in the denmark straits?

About the gunnery itself, USS Texas in may 1941 was restricted to her Original 1400lbs AP shells, the old Mk-8 as the new Mk-16 of 1500lbs was not available untill late 1942. So the old Mk-8 AP round was the one facing Bismarck, which is not good, as the difference with the far more advanced British 14 inch Mark VIIB of 1590 lbs is very big. The British shell was even better in general performance to the equally good 15 inch APC Mark Ia (4crh) - 1,920 lbs. used by HMS Hood.

The Mark VIIB AP round had a better penetrating power compared to the old USN Mk-8 AP round, penetrating 11.2 inch side armor at 20,000 yards to 6,7 inch in the Mk-8 round on the same range. Deck penetration of the British shell too was much higher, at soem 3.7 inch at 20,000 yards to only 2.1 inch on the Mk-8 round. Note Bismarck had a belt of 12.6 inch thikc and a main armored deck of 3.7 inch to 4.7 inch, deep inside the vessel's hull, with a thick bombdeck above at upperdeck level. The vitals were quite immuun to both British and USN shellfire and even the upper deck would shield it form USN Mk-8 shells.

It is safe to say Bismarck was too hard a nut to crack for a New York Class guntub, which was outwithed in all aspects and far too obsolete to start with, even with the adding of new electronics and AA guns. the main weapons were the weak spot of the New York Class being obsolete and not good for anything more than shore bombardment at best, whcih could be done as well by lesser vessels with less crew and fuelneeds. In a one on one encounter and both intending to slugg it out, Bismarck was vulnerable on her unarmored parts mainly, but nothing vital, while her guns could defeat USS Texas at all ranges, besides having the choice of how, where and when to engage.

As for the torpedo element, the mere threat of a torpedoattack would force the defending side to counter measures, even when the torpedoes themseleves were worthless. Simply the presence of the potential to deploy torpedoes would force the German ship to run away, using her still superior speed to outrun the periodical USN DD's, mostly still the old obsolete 1919 type flushdeckers, which could not work well in the seastate normally found in the North Atlantic, lacking freeboard and beam.
 
Positioning...

The positions of the ships will play a major role in determining if a battle happens. If Texas is directly across Bismarck's course home, it's more likely to be seen as a threat--and going around will take a LOT of time--and the royal navy is on the way. In this case, it might make TACTICAL sense to try to blow the Texas out of the water quickly to allow a continued run for home.
 

marathag

Banned
About the gunnery itself, USS Texas in may 1941 was restricted to her Original 1400lbs AP shells, the old Mk-8 as the new Mk-16 of 1500lbs was not available untill late 1942.

"
  • 2 March - 18 July 1935, 2nd of 3 reguns, Bremerton Navy Yard, Mark I Mod VII replaced with 7 - Mark VIII and 2 - Mark X. - from magazine of Warships International
  • By 1939, the AP shell weighs 1,500 pounds (possibly the 1,500 lbs shell came into use with the Mark VIII?)
"

http://www.bb35library.usstexasbb35.com/weapons/type/14inch/14inGunChronology.htm
 
The issue is not whether or not the Texas (plus/minus destroyers) or the Bismarck would win a battle in fall 1941. If there is an encounter between the two, especially in poor visibility, either "nothing" happens and the Texas sends a clear message about who she just encountered, or the Bismarck gets jumpy and a round is loosed due to mis-identification.

The Texas is under no obligation to make a contact transmission in code, by this time the USN would send contact reports to HQ in the Atlantic en clair to make sure the RN knew when they saw a U-boat. Germany may be upset but...

If the Bismarck fires on the Texas, and especially if there are lots of casualties or even a sinking, hard for the USA to avoid war.This is not a case of a U-boat having identification difficulties through a periscope.
 
Simply the presence of the potential to deploy torpedoes would force the German ship to run away, using her still superior speed to outrun the periodical USN DD's, mostly still the old obsolete 1919 type flushdeckers, which could not work well in the seastate normally found in the North Atlantic, lacking freeboard and beam.

Enough with the "Rule Britannia" claptrap! Not all of the USN DDs on neutrality patrol were old 4-stackers, nor were the only US BBs available as old as the Texas. Even the veteran 4 stackers could pose a threat, rated at 35 knots with 12 21" torpedo tubes. Besides, if the antique USN fleet faced the Bismark and PE, that meant the Limey Navy had failed.
 
true story

Enough with the "Rule Britannia" claptrap! Not all of the USN DDs on neutrality patrol were old 4-stackers, nor were the only US BBs available as old as the Texas. Even the veteran 4 stackers could pose a threat, rated at 35 knots with 12 21" torpedo tubes. Besides, if the antique USN fleet faced the Bismark and PE, that meant the Limey Navy had failed.

We're not talking about the US Navy. The true story is after the battle of the Denmark strait, when the Prinz Eugen left the Bismarck, she almst came across the Texas. What I was wondering is what would happen if the Bismarck had encountered the Texas after the Battle of the Denmark Strait. I have I like what I have read so far from everyone else.
 
Bismarck was actually unusually vulnerable to plunging fire. Her designers misread a couple of the lessons of Jutland and didn't extend her belt far enough below the waterline. While this might not have been a major issue against Texas due to the max elevation of her guns, it as a direct reason for the amount of damage inflicted by the Prince of Wales' hit.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/KGV_Tirpitz_armour_and_underwater_protection.png

Is this cross-section accurate? Tirpitz's belt does look a little shallow. I suppose a shallow belt wouldn't matter so much if you expect a close-range slugfest in North Atlantic murk, but by 1941 shellfire wasn't the main threat to a battleship. And, arguably, hadn't been for decades...

And I wonder how feasible it was to send a diving shell or hot splinter through the armour deck into the magazine...
 

CalBear

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http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/KGV_Tirpitz_armour_and_underwater_protection.png

Is this cross-section accurate? Tirpitz's belt does look a little shallow. I suppose a shallow belt wouldn't matter so much if you expect a close-range slugfest in North Atlantic murk, but by 1941 shellfire wasn't the main threat to a battleship. And, arguably, hadn't been for decades...

And I wonder how feasible it was to send a diving shell or hot splinter through the armour deck into the magazine...

As far as I know it is accurate.

The KM designers took the battle of Jutland and built a ship meant to do well in that sort of engagement, ranges in the 8-15,000 meter range against ships with max gun elevations in to 18-20 degree range and then increased it to match the Bismarck's max gun elevation of 30 degrees. Unfortunately for the Reich the rest of the world didn't follow the same ideas. The American fast BB could elevate to 45 degrees while the Nelson and KGV classes went to 40 degrees.

In the interwar period RN & USN naval thought went in the direction of plunging fire, on the understandable belief that it is better to hit six inch deck armor or below main belt side armor (which effectively turned the shell into a super torpedo).
 
If the Bismarck had encountered the USS Texas and some kind of spat happened, it could have lead to a declaration of war by the American government as if the press find out, the Americans could get jumpy for war. Anyway, Roosevelt has a good excuse to do so.

On another note, IF war is declared, there is a good chance Hitler might give a order to keep the major surface ships as a fleet in being up in Norway, so they can't do any harm
 

CalBear

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If the Bismarck had encountered the USS Texas and some kind of spat happened, it could have lead to a declaration of war by the American government as if the press find out, the Americans could get jumpy for war. Anyway, Roosevelt has a good excuse to do so.

On another note, IF war is declared, there is a good chance Hitler might give a order to keep the major surface ships as a fleet in being up in Norway, so they can't do any harm

This would raise some seriously interesting questions if it led to the declaration of war (and the loss of Texas undoubtedly would). This would put the Reich at war with the U.S. two months before Barbarossa.

We all know Hitler was an idiot. Was he enough of an idiot to go after the Soviet Union when fully engaged with an undamaged or distracted United States.
 
...

We all know Hitler was an idiot. Was he enough of an idiot to go after the Soviet Union when fully engaged with an undamaged or distracted United States.

US mobilization was a lot less further along then. Still publiclly training with old French cannon, a hand full of obsolete tanks, aging small arms, & aircraft like the F2F or the P36. Not at all clear that the 200,000 man cadre of the US Army would be able to turn the two million rookies in uniform into any sort of army in the next 24 months. Neither was the industrial mobilization apparent. We tend to exaggerate its early years and the perception through 1942. The reality was in 1941 US industrial mobilization consisted of chaos in the existing factories and transportation, and a lot of construction plans.

It would be understandable for the German leaders of 1941 to dismiss the US as of no real threat in the near future and to go ahead with eliminating the Red menace while the opportunity existed. After all it took eight years to train and equip the Wehrmacht to its superb state in 1941. What might the US accomplish in two? Get all its soldiers into matching uniforms?
 
We all know Hitler was an idiot. Was he enough of an idiot to go after the Soviet Union when fully engaged with an undamaged or distracted United States.

I think he'd figure that victory over the US and UK would only be possible with the resources of the East, and that he'd better get a move on before the US could fully deploy its power. It's basically the same strategic situation as OTL.
 
This would raise some seriously interesting questions if it led to the declaration of war (and the loss of Texas undoubtedly would). This would put the Reich at war with the U.S. two months before Barbarossa.

We all know Hitler was an idiot. Was he enough of an idiot to go after the Soviet Union when fully engaged with an undamaged or distracted United States.

Ah, a question not usually asked! :eek:

I've read Carl's post before replying here. His reasoning makes sense to me. But, I'm wondering how long it would take for Hitler and company to come to a decision given the changing international situation. Also, what else may change internationally if the US goes to war with Germany (and Italy and the other Euro-Axis?)?

With the USN focusing its strength in the Atlantic, perhaps the Allies will move into the Med in force to cut North Africa off from Italy.

This is a scenario I should try with the Third Reich game. Take the Barbarossa scenario with the USA at war with the Axis, and Germany not going through with the invasion of the USSR. I have to clear off the card table first though. Hmmm
 
The destroyers with USS Texas

The source I have lists Texas's three escorts as Benson, Mayo, and Gleaves. All new destroyers of the Benson and Gleaves classes.
 
...
This is a scenario I should try with the Third Reich game. Take the Barbarossa scenario with the USA at war with the Axis, and Germany not going through with the invasion of the USSR. I have to clear off the card table first though. Hmmm

Post screen shots.

With the US at war with Germany four to six months sooner one of the earlier Gymnast plans might be executed vs the late 1942 Torch operation.
 
Building armies, and Japan's outlook...

The USA built its last army fairly fast, back in the Great War. Hitler might dismiss it, but the generals won't...that might influence events between Germany and the USSR.

And the BIG butterfly--Japan. What happens over there? Japan can't push Pearl Harbor up much, if at all--and the USA will be on a wartime footing. Japan will adhere to the treaties with Germany if it's in Japan's best interests--otherwise, they can say that Germany fired first.
 
What if before encountering the Hood and Prince of Wales, the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen had encountered the USS Texas on patrol in the Denmark Strait. I had read that by the spring of 1941 the US Navy was patrolling the Denmark Strait and the Texas had almost encountered the Prinz Eugen just after she had detached from the Bismarck.

What if she had encountered the Bismarck? Would the Bismarck have engaged the Texas or try to avoid her. What would happen if she attacked the Texas, and if she did what would end result be, and what the ramifications be between Germany and the United States? Would it mean the US would enter the war during the summer of '41? Anyone have any thoughts.

The last time a US 'battleship' (armoured cruiser) was destroyed by another nation in peacetime - we got

"REMEMBER THE MAINE, TO HELL WITH SPAIN"

Is basically what would happen (even worse given the USS Maine probably killed herself with a coal bunker fire....very common around that period....next to a powder magazine...and not destroyed by an enemy mine!).

Resulted in a war with Spain and a lot of Newspapers got sold.

So with Germany's Track record to date the sinking or badly damaging of the USS Texas would very likely result in change in the national opinion resulting in at worse a more agressive US involvement at best a full DOW.

However I agree that its unlikely that Bismarck would deliberately go after the Texas - but stranger things have happened in war - and Texas is a Pre-war -pre-Jutland vessel vs the 2nd most advanced Battleship in the world!
 
other incidents

In the OTL, their were a couple of other incidents before the US entered the war. A few months after the Bismarck hunt, a German u-boat actually stalked the Texas. Than their was the sinking of a US destroyer by another u-boatin the Autumn of 1941.
 
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