wi: the bismarck had encountered the uss texas in the denmark straits?

[Crowbar Six]

Well Texas had an extensive refit pre-war and was designed as a battleship not a battlecruiser. Texas had a somewhat heavier armour scheme than Hood with thicker bulkheads and without the vulnerable turret and magazine that seemed to plague British Battlecruisers.

Bismark would likely have roughly handled Texas, she was a lot smaller than the German ship, slower and more lightly armed, however Texas had an experienced gunnery crew and would likely have had an escort of destroyers, it would only take one to sneak into torpedo range to ruin Bismarks day.

 

[Dr. Hochmeister]

If it is an accident, I don't see war being declared.

Considering that FDR was well on the path to war at that point, if the Germans drink some lead paint and attack the Texas by accident I can see war being declared... Only instead of "Remember Pearl Harbor," the rallying cry is "Don't mess with Texas!"

 

[King Augeas]

Well Texas had an extensive refit pre-war and was designed as a battleship not a battlecruiser. Texas had a somewhat heavier armour scheme than Hood with thicker bulkheads and without the vulnerable turret and magazine that seemed to plague British Battlecruisers.

Bismark would likely have roughly handled Texas, she was a lot smaller than the German ship, slower and more lightly armed, however Texas had an experienced gunnery crew and would likely have had an escort of destroyers, it would only take one to sneak into torpedo range to ruin Bismarks day.

Yeah, destroyers are the key, as Scharnhorst found out. POW and Hood had to leave theirs behind to make the intercept at DS - another WI to wonder about there...

I think a poster above mentioned that Bismarck was vulnerable to US 14" fire. Bismarck's vitals are very well protected against gunfire because of her combination of belt and sloped armour deck - you can get a shell through the "relatively" thin belt but you'll find it a lot harder to get it into a machinery room or magazine. This means that it's easier to smash up the area above the armoured deck, but harder to slow her down via machinery damage or blow her up. Unless you can just send a shell diving under her belt, as POW did, but that was probably a bit of a fluke related to wave action or roll.

But that ignores things like damage to boiler uptakes, which presumably are in that area. Indeed, OTL shows that battleships had plenty of "vitals" that simply couldn't be armoured well enough without making unacceptable sacrifices elsewhere - fuel tanks, radar, gunnery control towers, shafts, props and rudders, even gunhouses.

 

[Agent of SHIELD]

Considering that FDR was well on the path to war at that point, if the Germans drink some lead paint and attack the Texas by accident I can see war being declared... Only instead of "Remember Pearl Harbor," the rallying cry is "Don't mess with Texas!"

Well, considering that the undeclared U-Boat war between the USN and Kriegsmarine was only a few months away and FDR's pushing to enter the war, if (unlikely as it is) the Bismarck and the Texas get into a battle, and assuming the Texas is sunk, this might just push your average American to support the war. IIRC, the US public was moving towards support for the war in 1941 even if they weren't fully onboard yet, (I'm at work right now, can't look for sources, sorry).

In this situation though, we have a USN battleship, conducting exercises which are completely in its rights as a neutral nation. And which was, from the US's perspective and the way it will be spun to the press, attacked out of the blue by the Bismarck. That's hundreds of dead sailors and Marines, maybe more if the escort destroyers are lost as well. Something like that is going to be hard for the doves to brush away when the Texas was just minding her business. I'm not sure it would lead to war, but I'd be midly surprised if it didn't.

After all, "Remember the Texas!" would be a hell of a rallying cry.

Edit: I just remembered the "Don't mess with Texas" slogan was started for an anti-littering campaign, so I doubt it would be used unless the Texas came out on top of the fight.

 

[marathag]

The Texas is of roughly the same vintage as the Hood. Considering what the Bismark did to the Hood, and that with significant upgrades over her original specs, I'd say that bad things happen to the Texas.

USN Texas Armor: 10-12" belt, turrets: 4-9"; face 14"; 4-12" conning tower; 1.5-4" decks, 5-12" barbettes, 9-11" bulkheads 6.5" casemate armor

HMS Hood

Hood Armor: 5-12" belt, turrets: 5-12"; face 15"; 9-11" conning tower; 1-3" decks, 12" barbettes, 4-5" bulkheads Funnel trunk 1" Casemate 5"

Texas has slightly less turret armor, but better deck and bulkhead, rest was similar.

Then it's on to the loss of the Hood

Lucky Shot to the aft magazine by missing the upper or lower Belts??

Torpedo warhead(s) detonated?

The previous fire from the burning 4" magazine spread?

The Jutland BC curse of flashback?

Texas has no Torpedoes, for starters, and better armor

 

[CDurham]

Well Texas had an extensive refit pre-war and was designed as a battleship not a battlecruiser. Texas had a somewhat heavier armour scheme than Hood with thicker bulkheads and without the vulnerable turret and magazine that seemed to plague British Battlecruisers.

Bismark would likely have roughly handled Texas, she was a lot smaller than the German ship, slower and more lightly armed, however Texas had an experienced gunnery crew and would likely have had an escort of destroyers, it would only take one to sneak into torpedo range to ruin Bismarks day.

About those destroyers, if for some reason the Bismark mistakes the Texas, I doubt the will mistake a line of pissed off USN destroyers making a torpedo run for (insert Royal Navy destroyer class here) and the thought of "why would the yanks be protecting a limey battleship" will probably quickly turn into a "thats probably not a Royal Navy battleship... oops"

what happens then makes things interesting "i.e. does the Bismark try to break off the moment she realizes that those aren't British destroyers?

 

[Chris Oakley]

What if before encountering the Hood and Prince of Wales, the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen had encountered the USS Texas on patrol in the Denmark Strait. I had read that by the spring of 1941 the US Navy was patrolling the Denmark Strait and the Texas had almost encountered the Prinz Eugen just after she had detached from the Bismarck.

What if she had encountered the Bismarck? Would the Bismarck have engaged the Texas or try to avoid her. What would happen if she attacked the Texas, and if she did what would end result be, and what the ramifications be between Germany and the United States? Would it mean the US would enter the war during the summer of '41? Anyone have any thoughts.

Lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllet's get ready to rumbllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllle!

Guarantee if Bismarck had fired so much as a spitball at USS Texas it would have been instant outbreak of war between US and Germany.

 

[NHBL]

Escorts and "THUD!"

An interesting butterfly for later on...
The escorting destroyers make torpedo runs..and many fish are seen to either run under the target, or hit and go "THUD" instead of "BOOM!" Enough of this, with plenty of witnesses, and perhaps something will be done about the torpedo problem...

 

[Oldbill]

Bismarck also came quite close to CGC Modoc. Had the weather been a bit worse, or Modoc in a slightly different position, she could have been fired on. While Modoc couldn't have hurt Bismarck, the reverse isn't true, and if sunk by Bismarck would have had some interesting repercussions.

http://chuckhillscgblog.net/2013/05/24/the-coast-guard-and-the-sinking-of-the-battleship-bismark/

 

[Mike Stearns]

Lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllet's get ready to rumbllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllle!

Guarantee if Bismarck had fired so much as a spitball at USS Texas it would have been instant outbreak of war between US and Germany.

Agreed. Especially if the Texas catches a magic bullet and sinks. It will be impossible for the Americans to ignore a German battleship sinking an American battleship on training maneuvers.

 

[highwayhoss]

Last year on April 26, I had the opportunity to visit the USS Texas in Baytown. (I was waiting for a load of Beer in Houston.) Luckily, the re-eneactment of the battle of San Jacinto was happening that day too; had a lot of fun, took lotsa pics and purchased three books.

Here's my pics of the Texas: Texas Facebook pics

and my San Jacinto pics: Facebook album

As for Texas vs Bismarck, such an encounter would more than likely take place after the battle of the Denmark Strait, so Bismarck will be trying to get to France for repairs; neither Lutjens or Lindemann will fire at any ship without making sure of their identity. They will not risk a fight; neither will Texas. In fact if Bismarck detects the Neutrality Patrol, I think they will try to avoid it. If they do encounter each other, both will more than likely observe strict neutrality and avoid giving any provocation.

BTW on June 20, 1941 the German U-Boat U-203 shadowed Texas for several hours and radioed HQ for permission to attack; they were refused.

 

[Dilvish]

Last year on April 26, I had the opportunity to visit the USS Texas in Baytown. (I was waiting for a load of Beer in Houston.) Luckily, the re-eneactment of the battle of San Jacinto was happening that day too; had a lot of fun, took lotsa pics and purchased three books.

Here's my pics of the Texas: Texas Facebook pics

and my San Jacinto pics: Facebook album

As for Texas vs Bismarck, such an encounter would more than likely take place after the battle of the Denmark Strait, so Bismarck will be trying to get to France for repairs; neither Lutjens or Lindemann will fire at any ship without making sure of their identity. They will not risk a fight; neither will Texas. In fact if Bismarck detects the Neutrality Patrol, I think they will try to avoid it. If they do encounter each other, both will more than likely observe strict neutrality and avoid giving any provocation.

BTW on June 20, 1941 the German U-Boat U-203 shadowed Texas for several hours and radioed HQ for permission to attack; they were refused.

That sounds reasonable to me; Lutjens and Lindemann don't want to get in a fight with anything that can hurt Bismarck.

Bismarck can outrun Texas. At worst, the two ships trade shots until Bismarck sails out of range. If either ship gets in a lucky shot that sinks the other. Sinking the Texas may lead to war, I don't know if that means a 100% chance of war. If Texas sinks Bismarck, what then?

If Bismarck just damages the Texas, I think there is a chance that the cause of the isolationists is strengthened, as well as the cause of those who want to intervene in the war.

 

[torten]

Ok. After the battle of the Denmark strait, the Bismarck was a bit battle damaged and of course has expended some ammunition. She is losing fuel. The prince of wales, which has taken some damage and has faulty guns, and two cruisers are shadowing her. The Texas is going to have crew which are not that experienced in actual battles. Now, the Texas is going to opened fire on first, and is going to need to quickly man the guns. The Texas is going to order her destroyers to make torpedo runs, and fire some warning shots. If the Bismarck continues to fire, which in my opinion it will, even if it is a American ship, as they will think the Americans have entered the war. she will also call the USS New York for help, and report her position to the nearby British ships, as well as the US naval office which will inform the British admiralty and Roosevelt. The Bismarck has now got two battleships on the way to provide assistance. Their is good chance the Bismarck could end up with a torpedo hit.

Also, 'At 3 am on 25 May, the British shadowers lost contact with Bismarck. At first, it was thought that she would return to the North Sea, and ships were directed accordingly' (Wikipedia)

Well that's just been butterflied away, so all the royal navy ships are going to know where to go. The victorious also launched a strike at the end of the 24 may with Swordfish. The Victorious could launch another strike, and the Texas can fill both ships with 14 inch gunfire. While the Texas did have thin deck armour, the Bismarck would have to get very lucky to get another lucky shot. If the Texas scores a few hits on the Bismarck, the Bismarck, nor the Prinz eugen is making to France.

 

[HMS Warspite]

Ok. After the battle of the Denmark strait, the Bismarck was a bit battle damaged and of course has expended some ammunition. She is losing fuel. The prince of wales, which has taken some damage and has faulty guns, and two cruisers are shadowing her. The Texas is going to have crew which are not that experienced in actual battles. Now, the Texas is going to opened fire on first, and is going to need to quickly man the guns. The Texas is going to order her destroyers to make torpedo runs, and fire some warning shots. If the Bismarck continues to fire, which in my opinion it will, even if it is a American ship, as they will think the Americans have entered the war. she will also call the USS New York for help, and report her position to the nearby British ships, as well as the US naval office which will inform the British admiralty and Roosevelt. The Bismarck has now got two battleships on the way to provide assistance. Their is good chance the Bismarck could end up with a torpedo hit.

Also, 'At 3 am on 25 May, the British shadowers lost contact with Bismarck. At first, it was thought that she would return to the North Sea, and ships were directed accordingly' (Wikipedia)

Well that's just been butterflied away, so all the royal navy ships are going to know where to go. The victorious also launched a strike at the end of the 24 may with Swordfish. The Victorious could launch another strike, and the Texas can fill both ships with 14 inch gunfire. While the Texas did have thin deck armour, the Bismarck would have to get very lucky to get another lucky shot. If the Texas scores a few hits on the Bismarck, the Bismarck, nor the Prinz eugen is making to France.

That scenario is a bit too optimistic, as the USN BB's hardly can be faster than say 15 knots of so in the given seastate of the 24th and 25th of may 1941, while Bismarck still had the upper edge at 28 knots or so, with the damage of HMS Prince of Wales' hits. That is almost twice as fast, besides Lüttjens under strict orders to avoid a fight when possible.

The basic rule is the faster force can dictate terms, which is the german one in this case, so the Germans will get away out of range quickly, with the USN BB's hunting shadows only. Only HMS Victorious was in a possition to force Bismarck to a fight and create damage of a more serious kind, not the USN gunboats.

Secondly, forget about the USN DD's scoring a torpedohit on Bismarck, that will do damage, as teh USN DD's were even less seaworthy (Mostly the obsolete 1919 period flushdeck type) and their torpedoes were the worst of all navies at the time. Only a British ship was capable of dealing these circumstances anf even fight a fight, while the USN was absolutely not in the possition to do that, lacking equipment, personel, training and most of all experience in modern naval warfare. (Last time it fought a naval fight was in 1898!)

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

My thought is a different scenario, similar to the 'carrier' Alt Hist proposed last year. https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=311390

That is the Texas & its escorts pick up a emergency message from a convoy under attack by a "battleship". A quick plot of the positions shows the battle is just 50nm away. Also noted in the radio messages is some of the cargo ships are US flagged.

If the commander of the Texas TF and Lutjens are unlucky enough to plot interesecting courses after the radio messages are received, then the encounter might occur.

I'm assuming here the only reason the Bismarck is this far west is it was not damaged in the Denmark Strait, & the PE may be lurking about as well.

 

[CalBear]

The Texas is of roughly the same vintage as the Hood. Considering what the Bismark did to the Hood, and that with significant upgrades over her original specs, I'd say that bad things happen to the Texas.

Actually Texas is considerably older (commissioned 1914) than the Hood, (commissioned 1920, laid down two years after Texas was commissioned) but she was designed from the keel as a battleship. Her armor scheme was heavier pretty much across the board than the Hood, which was an improved BC design (the debate over which country made better armor is an entirely different one that can take up volumes). Hood was much larger overall than Texas, at 46K tons vs 27K and 860 feet vs. 527, but the extra size was not as much of a help as might be expected simply because Hood was still meant to be exceptionally fast for the era. Hood's armor made up roughly 33% of her displacement while Texas was ~29%.

Hood died from a "golden BB" hit (current analysis has shifted the likely hit from the deck to a penetration of her lower belt into the 4" magazine) rather than the sort of pounding that sank or reduced to hulk condition, Bismarck, Kirishima, Hiei and Fuso in the other major battleship losses due to surface action in WW II. Texas was fully capable of making killing hits on Bismarck at the maximum likely engagement range with her 14"/45 main battery.

Bismarck would have the advantage of choosing to engage, she had an easy 8 knot speed advantage.

Actually, any engagement would be vastly impacted by the presence of the U.S. escorts. Destroyers with their heavy torpedo armament are a lethal threat in this sort of engagement, where the capital ship is engaged in a peer/peer fight and can not be maneuvered/fought to deal with attacking destroyers.

 

[TheYoungPretender]

That scenario is a bit too optimistic, as the USN BB's hardly can be faster than say 15 knots of so in the given seastate of the 24th and 25th of may 1941, while Bismarck still had the upper edge at 28 knots or so, with the damage of HMS Prince of Wales' hits. That is almost twice as fast, besides Lüttjens under strict orders to avoid a fight when possible.

The basic rule is the faster force can dictate terms, which is the german one in this case, so the Germans will get away out of range quickly, with the USN BB's hunting shadows only. Only HMS Victorious was in a possition to force Bismarck to a fight and create damage of a more serious kind, not the USN gunboats.

Secondly, forget about the USN DD's scoring a torpedohit on Bismarck, that will do damage, as teh USN DD's were even less seaworthy (Mostly the obsolete 1919 period flushdeck type) and their torpedoes were the worst of all navies at the time. Only a British ship was capable of dealing these circumstances anf even fight a fight, while the USN was absolutely not in the possition to do that, lacking equipment, personel, training and most of all experience in modern naval warfare. (Last time it fought a naval fight was in 1898!)

As far as accuracy goes, I think the US destroyer force had faced something post 1898 - there were some incidents with some submarines between then and 1939, one thinks.... And even if the odds of the USN's destroyers scoring a killing blow are low, real destroyers loaded with real torpedoes are a threat an battleship commander must deal with.

Also, the USN's analog computers, radars, and other fire control systems tended to allow their vessels to perform very well, either for one sided fights in some cases (Kirishima), or dead ships not going down alone in others (Samar). Texas can stay afloat for a while, and hit hard. Mind, Lutjens is not looking for a fight by the time he could cross paths with Texas, so probably not, but if goes nuts and fights, well, Texas would probably go down, but Bismarck would not be looking too good afterwards.

 

[CalBear]

Yeah, destroyers are the key, as Scharnhorst found out. POW and Hood had to leave theirs behind to make the intercept at DS - another WI to wonder about there...

I think a poster above mentioned that Bismarck was vulnerable to US 14" fire. Bismarck's vitals are very well protected against gunfire because of her combination of belt and sloped armour deck - you can get a shell through the "relatively" thin belt but you'll find it a lot harder to get it into a machinery room or magazine. This means that it's easier to smash up the area above the armoured deck, but harder to slow her down via machinery damage or blow her up. Unless you can just send a shell diving under her belt, as POW did, but that was probably a bit of a fluke related to wave action or roll.

But that ignores things like damage to boiler uptakes, which presumably are in that area. Indeed, OTL shows that battleships had plenty of "vitals" that simply couldn't be armoured well enough without making unacceptable sacrifices elsewhere - fuel tanks, radar, gunnery control towers, shafts, props and rudders, even gunhouses.

Bismarck was actually unusually vulnerable to plunging fire. Her designers misread a couple of the lessons of Jutland and didn't extend her belt far enough below the waterline. While this might not have been a major issue against Texas due to the max elevation of her guns, it as a direct reason for the amount of damage inflicted by the Prince of Wales' hit.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

Interesting , very interesting

Bismarck was actually unusually vulnerable to plunging fire. Her designers misread a couple of the lessons of Jutland and didn't extend her belt far enough below the waterline. While this might not have been a major issue against Texas due to the max elevation of her guns, it as a direct reason for the amount of damage inflicted by the Prince of Wales' hit.

I didn't know that, thanks. We tend to hear how wonderful the Bismarck and other German ships were as compared to allied ones, especially the KGV class who look under gunned even thought their armour was thicker and more modern in design than the Bismarck


I suspect there'd have been no battle between Bismarck and Texas though. Bismarck would have sought to evade* rather than fight and had the speed advantage to do so. Had it been able to do the same against Hood and Prince of Wales it would have done the same rather than fight. Its job was to disrupt the Atlantic convoys, not engage in duels against other capital ships.

* I suppose this doesn't rule out entirely the possibility it might have fired some shots during its evasion. However, provided the sighting was at long range, it may not have bothered unless Texas opened fire first. Which I don't suppose it would.

 

[joeferrito]

Perhaps the southern accents in Johnny Horton's "Sink the Bismarck" make just a tiny bit more sense than OTL?