WWII alternative military "workhorses": what if there had been no Jeep, no Kubelwagen, no Ju-52, no DC-3 ?

[Jfoul]

Few vehicles in WWII are more instantly recognisable than the ones aforementioned in the title. I am focusing on those specific aircrafts and cars as I feel that they were litterally used for anything and everything, the Jeep obviously chief among them.

But what if the Jeep never got to become the standard vehicle of the US military... then, which vehicle was next in line ? My first guess would go towards the Dodge WC-52... but my knowledge of this era is limited.

The same question applies to the DC-3 Dakota which was omnipresent in all theatres of war as far as the US was concerned... what aircraft would have been picked for the military if the DC-3 had never been developed?

On the other side of the board, I am also interested in what were the alternatives available to the Germans, with the JU-52 having been around for quite a while by the beginning of the war, and as far as the Kubelwagen is concerned, I have truly no idea what could have replaced it.

Those questions could also extend to other nations (Brits, Italians, Japanese, French) involved in the war, but I am less knowledgeable of which land and air "workhorses" they had.

 

[Canuck Wingnut]

I think that had the Jeep not been adopted it would most likely have been 'replaced' by at least three different vehicles- armoured cars for scouting, staff cars pushed down somewhat to relatively lower-ranking officers, and 1 1/2 ton trucks used to provide much of the Jeep's transport role in a more centralized fashion. The decentralized transport capabilities of the jeep were tremendously valuable- but most armies of the period did without them, and did just fine.

The DC-3 is a different sort of case- if the DC-3 were unavailable, I suspect the USAAF would have adopted another transport aircraft in its role- probably a derivative of the Boeing 247 (older and less capable) or the Curtiss CW-20 (not yet in production by 1940, but very promising).

An interesting thought experiment I have considered is having the US and the UK 'swap' the Jeep and the Bren Gun Carrier- with the UK adopting an Austin Seven derived light utility car as standard (they used the Seven experimentally during the '30s infantry mechanization experiments) and the US adopting a tracked vehicle as their light transport. The effects on both armies tactical development would, I think, be noticeable.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Well, the FW 200 Condor would take over all roles of the Junkers 52

 

[CalBear]

Few vehicles in WWII are more instantly recognisable than the ones aforementioned in the title. I am focusing on those specific aircrafts and cars as I feel that they were litterally used for anything and everything, the Jeep obviously chief among them.

But what if the Jeep never got to become the standard vehicle of the US military... then, which vehicle was next in line ? My first guess would go towards the Dodge WC-52... but my knowledge of this era is limited.

The same question applies to the DC-3 Dakota which was omnipresent in all theatres of war as far as the US was concerned... what aircraft would have been picked for the military if the DC-3 had never been developed?

On the other side of the board, I am also interested in what were the alternatives available to the Germans, with the JU-52 having been around for quite a while by the beginning of the war, and as far as the Kubelwagen is concerned, I have truly no idea what could have replaced it.

Those questions could also extend to other nations (Brits, Italians, Japanese, French) involved in the war, but I am less knowledgeable of which land and air "workhorses" they had.

No DC-3/C-47?

DC-4/C-54.

Eazy-peazy.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

The alternative to the Jeep would be for the US to adopt the Universal Carrier, the US built thousands of them as the T16. For use where they don't need to go off road they can adopt any of the commercial pick up trucks as an American Tilly.

Tilly (vehicle) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Driftless]

Calling @marathag, @phx1138 , @Draconis - this is in your wheelhouse.

A couple of thoughts:

No DC-3, then the C-46 (for all its flaws) gets a bigger role, till something better is created.

No Jeep: The Dodge WC in all its iterations, gets even more use

The US Bren analog is an interesting thought: Maybe after Walter Christie gets shoved out of the way, a Christie "schlepper" gets developed, or some idea plucked from French Army drawing boards? The US Army had close, if informal, ties with the French military for a long time. A Kegresse type rubber band tracked light car(i.e. A US version of the Unic Tu1 - a lightweight halfrack)

 

[nbcman]

Missed the true WW2 military workhorse: the humble Deuce and a half aka 2 1/2-ton 6x6 truck. It was one of the six most vital pieces of equipment according to General Eisenhower himself. Over 3/4 of a million were produced for the US military and for lend lease to other countries.

2½-ton 6×6 truck - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

EDIT: The Nazis only managed to produce 13,000 of their 2 1/2 ton equivalent trucks:

Einheits-PKW der Wehrmacht - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[yulzari1]

In the first half of the war the Bristol Bombay. By the second half the Short Stirling is recognised as the least preferred heavy bomber but they are in series production so an earlier shift to the MkV transport as a strategic transport. Ideally with a reinforced floor and large side door. Meanwhile the Bombay is seen as a tactical transport and part of an air landing process flying in to near the front line into unprepared fields for supplies and troops in and wounded out. Such success might just accelerate the Bristol Freighter into the war but too late to make it’s mark. The dividing line between the types is for the Stirling to heavy lift into runways and off load. The Bombay either moving the contents into the field or medium distances direct from supply points. With some care and door/ floor modifications one could carry a sidecar outfit pulled pack howitzer or 6 Pounder, 3” mortar/light AA or just PIATs with plentiful ammunition etc. into an airborne assault right onto the landing field plus supplies.No Jeep or equivalent will fit or be light enough but a different set of airborne vehicles/heavy arms would be developed in this AH. The Stirling was designed to carry it’s own servicing crew etc into colonial airfields and the Bombay was built for cleared but otherwise unprepared fields. No great POD other than a change in doctrine. One might wonder what effect this might have had upon OTL Operation Overlord orMarket Garden. In Burma, the largest allied land campaign against the Japanese (outside China), it could by pass the difficulties of land logistics and air drops by direct landing near the front from airfields prepared for Stirling’s to bring in the loads for the Bombays to bring forward and extract when needed.

 

[Triune Kingdom]

EDIT: The Nazis only managed to produce 13,000 of their 2 1/2 ton equivalent trucks:

If I am not mistaken, Canada produced more motor vehicles during WW2, then Axis production combined.

 

[Draconis]

Calling @marathag, @phx1138 , @Draconis - this is in your wheelhouse.

A couple of thoughts:

No DC-3, then the C-46 (for all its flaws) gets a bigger role, till something better is created.

No Jeep: The Dodge WC in all its iterations, gets even more use

The US Bren analog is an interesting thought: Maybe after Walter Christie gets shoved out of the way, a Christie "schlepper" gets developed, or some idea plucked from French Army drawing boards? The US Army had close, if informal, ties with the French military for a long time. A Kegresse type rubber band tracked light car(i.e. A US version of the Unic Tu1 - a lightweight halfrack)

I don't know how the DC-3/C-47 can be hand waved away. But I know how it could have been improved upon for military use.

What do you get when you cross a DC-3 with a Shorts Skyvan?

I don't know. It never happened. But perhaps it or something like it should have. The DC-3/C-47 was the work horse of the Allied, mostly American, air transport force for almost the entirety of WW2. And it performed very well at the job being a versatile, capable and reliable airplane. But for...

www.alternatehistory.com

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I don't know how the DC-3/C-47 can be hand waved away.

Timing, production of the DC3 was coming to an end as orders dried up when the US build up began. Delay that build up or reduce the final orders for the DC 3 and it will be out of production with Douglas retooling for other aircraft so not available for adaptation into the C-47.

 

[Cockroach]

No DC-3? Okay... Depending on exactly how the DC-3 is out of the running (early end of production vs never developed)... DC-2, DC-5, up-scaled Boeing 247, Lodestar or Stinson Model A (or evolved variant) as an initial 'gap filler' then C-46 from 1941 onward.

 

[marathag]

Calling @marathag, @phx1138 , @Draconis - this is in your wheelhouse.

A couple of thoughts:

No DC-3, then the C-46 (for all its flaws) gets a bigger role, till something better is created.

No Jeep: The Dodge WC in all its iterations, gets even more use

The US Bren analog is an interesting thought: Maybe after Walter Christie gets shoved out of the way, a Christie "schlepper" gets developed, or some idea plucked from French Army drawing boards? The US Army had close, if informal, ties with the French military for a long time. A Kegresse type rubber band tracked light car(i.e. A US version of the Unic Tu1 - a lightweight halfrack)

DC-3 was stretched DC-2. Main competitors
Curtiss Condor II 1933

15 seat day, 12 seat Sleeper Transport 160 mph cruise 840 mile range
It had a cargo section reminiscent of a Bomb Bay. A version was offered to the USAAC as a Bomber
Boeing 247 1933

14 seat, 180mph cruise 745 mile range. Cramped compared to the above, and less soundproofing, so noisier

No Bantam Jeep,
Ford Pygmy

Willys Quad and later MA

The Ford was pretty much a bash of the 9N Tractor and the Model A running gear

Before that, Major Robert Howie had this idea in 1937 for a fast scout car

Known as the Belly-Flopper
Only suspension was that provided by the sideways of the low PSI tires
It was Front wheel Drive, engine in the rear.
Used a American Austin engine, and geared for 28mph

It got the Army to issue a set of Specification that became the Jeep, wen the best parts of Bantam, Ford and Willys vehicles were combined in committee

 

[marathag]

EDIT: The Nazis only managed to produce 13,000 of their 2 1/2 ton equivalent trucks:

They never Standardized on a design.
So you had half ton thru 6 tonners from these manufacturers
Adler
AEG
Afa
Audi
Bergmann
Bergmann-Metallurgique
Bleichert
BMW
Borgward
Brennabor
Breuer
Büssing-NAG
Daimler-Benz
Demag
Deuliewag
Deutz
DKW
Esslingen
Famo
FAUN
Ford
Framo
Freund
Fuchs
Goliath
Hagedorn
Hamor
Hanomag
Hanno
Henschel
Horch
Kaelble
Klöckner-Deutz
Kramer
Kraus-Maffei
Krupp
Lanz
MAN
Manderbach
Maschinenbau Lüneburg
Mercedes-Benz
MIAG
Neander
Normag
NSU
O&K
Opel
Ostner
Phänomen
Primus
Renger
Sachsenberg
Saurer
Schlüter
Stoewer
Talbot
Tempo
Trippel
VW
Vögele
Vomag
Wanderer
Zettelmeyer
Ziel-Abegg
Zündapp

These Austrian

Austro-FIAT
Austro-Daimler
Fross-Büssing
Gräf & Stift
ÖAF
Perl
Saurer
Steyr-Puch

These Czechoslovakian trucks
Jawa
Praga
Skoda
Tatra
Walter

 

[sonofpegasus]

Humber heavy utility car, this is the hard top version there was also a soft top and truck type, if no Jeep then more of these and more Tillies, with a four wheel drive version as well.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

With no jeeps, maybe a greater use of motorbikes could be expected, with sidecar for cargo or passengers.
The French army had the Lorraine and chenillette in a broadly similar role to the universal carrier and a few other light tracked reconnaissance vehicles while the British also had the dragons, so alternate tracked vehicles could have emerged. Otherwise a kettenkrad analog for rough terrain is quite possible.
The British also had the Dingo which could have been adopted (and maybe adapted) into a more general support role, though the French Panhard was maybe a bit too big.
Is it credible to bring forward the Land Rover or is that going a step too far?

 

[cortz#9]

If no Kubelwagen the Germans might have used the VW Beetle in it's place.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

I just had visions of a militarised 2CV [1] and Austin 7 (actually a mini but that was way too late).

[1] Classed as a heavy tank in Japanese service.

 

[ennobee]

Of the four examples: Jeep, Kübelwagen, 'auntie' Ju52 and C47/DC3, only the Jeep was a purpose-built military vehicle. All the others were pre-war civilian designs that found themselves very successful in their niche. (Okay, the Kübelwagen was a pretty heavily modified VW beetle, but still basically a beetle with a more field-friendly bodywork). To the list I might also add the American Higgins Boat landing craft, which was essentially a Louisiana swamp boat with a front ramp (It's Japanese counterpart was a motorized armored sampan) and the Piper J4 grasshopper... A pre-war light tourist plane.

I will leave out the Jeep (and the Higgins) and just concentrate on the three civilian designs who suddenly found themselves ideally suited for their military role. First off: they were so successful because they were lucky to perfectly fit into the task they found themselves in. Of course, they were not perfect. They had their flaws. However once those flaws were known, their operational doctrine was adapted to deal with it. So there is no telling for instance how US aIrborne assault would have evolved if the C47 never existed and instead its place was taken by the twice as big Curtiss C46, or the smaller Cessna Bobcat. Here are just some educated guesses.

1) the DC3/C47: the DC3was a larger, more powerful version of the DC2, which was the third of the new generation of commercial twins, he two others being the Boeing 247 and the Lockheed Electra. Boeing immediately concentrated on following up with a large four-engined design, but like Douglas with it's Dc3, Lockheed developed its Electra into a whole family of custom twins: Super Electra, Lodestar, even some armed patrol bombers.if for some reason the DC3 never existed or for some reason never got developed into a military transport, a Lockheed design would be the easiest choice.

2) the Kübelwagen: actually there was a competitor to the Volkswagen: the Opel P4, aka the first version of the Opel Kapitän. Okay, not that there was a competition. The Volkswagen was a cutting edge design by Ferdinand Porsche pretty much re-inventing the automobile by using the latest materials and production techniques. The P.4 was a gradual development of earlier proven designs, just the ultimate development. Too bad old Fritz Opel couldn't resist yelling that if the Nazis wanted a Volks-wagon they should just take his design as it is already in production and does not need a completely new factory first.... Big mistake because that same Nazis were also in in charge of war production and assignment of materials. So poor Opel had to spend all of WWII building heavy trucks and the P4 took a hiatus until 1947. If no Wolkswagen? I try to imagine an Opel P4-based military scout car, with a body like that of the Kübelwagen, but it would probably look more like the British Humber staff car. Still, the Humber served the British quite well, so the P4 could do likewise.

3) The Junkers 52: it is hard to imagine a replacement for the 'Tante Ju', as pre-war it was already the only German airplane in it's class. All other manufacturers were either focussing on small, fast mail planes with limited seating capacity or on large 4-engined long-range prestige liners. The only comparable aircraft I can come up with would be the two-engined Siebel 204. But then, if there were no rugged 'medium' civilian transporters in the class of the Ju52, I am sure some of the other manufacturers would see the success the class has abroad and start to develop one for themselves by 1935 already

 

[yulzari1]

The Bristol Bombay compares very favourably with the Ju52. Not up there with the Dakota but passable in many ways.
edit: and of course the Handley Page Harrow.