WWII alternative military "workhorses": what if there had been no Jeep, no Kubelwagen, no Ju-52, no DC-3 ?

[Gannt the chartist]

DC5/C54, probably the Dodge with staff cars and larger trucks, Basically whatever the US chooses to make because they have many options and choose to standardize on a few of them. And then ofc that type gets the investment and upgrades.

What they happen to choose is not necessarily the best of kind in absolute terms its the one that gets closest to the spec and has production advantages. With 1940s tech and the specs given you are going to get something like a Jeep because form follows function.

Its different for the Germans and to some extent the British as they have less time and smaller manufacturing bases ( also more roads) US thinking pre war includes the trackless wastes of Texas.

The FW 200 is not a substiture The JU52 flies in 1930 and is useable as a military training aircraft well before the 200 is available. So whatever you choose as the main transport/Multi engine trainer will be the thing.

 

[marathag]

DC5/C54, probably the Dodge with staff cars and larger trucks, Basically whatever the US chooses to make because they have many options and choose to standardize on a few of them. And then ofc that type gets the investment and upgrades.

What they happen to choose is not necessarily the best of kind in absolute terms its the one that gets closest to the spec and has production advantages. With 1940s tech and the specs given you are going to get something like a Jeep because form follows function.

Its different for the Germans and to some extent the British as they have less time and smaller manufacturing bases ( also more roads) US thinking pre war includes the trackless wastes of Texas.

The FW 200 is not a substiture The JU52 flies in 1930 and is useable as a military training aircraft well before the 200 is available. So whatever you choose as the main transport/Multi engine trainer will be the thing.

Junkers four engine G-38, updated with newer engines, and as tech permits, smooth skin vs the corrugated that Junkers invented back in WWI

First flight in 1929.
It needed 4000 hp for decent performance, but the 1929 diesel engines could only supply 2400

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I just had visions of a militarised 2CV [1] and Austin 7 (actually a mini but that was way too late).

The British Army used open Austin 7's during from the mid 20's to the late 30's.

 

[phx1138]

No DC-3, then the C-46 (for all its flaws) gets a bigger role, till something better is created.

AIUI, the C-46 was seriously flawed. No DC-3 (& how you make that happen without killing off Douglas entirely, I can't imagine), I tend to think something completely other will have to come along.

I think of something not unlike the Airspeed Ambassador, or maybe even the C-82. By Boeing?

Maybe an enlarged L.18? Or a down-sized "Twin Connie"?

No Jeep: The Dodge WC in all its iterations, gets even more use

The WC was pretty big by comparison. It's unlikely to have become as commonplace or as iconic, because it couldn't do a lot of things the Jeep would (did).

Unlike the DC-3, though, making the Jeep disappear might be one of the easiest WIs to achieve. The Army's RfP was pretty tough; all you need is for Bantam to not even submit, because the deadline is insanely short, and for Willys to be refused an extension (as OTL).

 

[Gunnarnz]

Junkers four engine G-38, updated with newer engines, and as tech permits, smooth skin vs the corrugated that Junkers invented back in WWI

First flight in 1929.
It needed 4000 hp for decent performance, but the 1929 diesel engines could only supply 2400

Sweet baby Jesus, that wing is thicc! There's enough room for a basketball court in there.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

Sweet baby Jesus, that wing is thicc! There's enough room for a basketball court in there.

The windows in the wing next to the fuselage are for the passengers - that's definitely a thick wing.

 

[marathag]

Sweet baby Jesus, that wing is thicc! There's enough room for a basketball court in there.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

Great pics.

 

[marathag]

Unlike the DC-3, though, making the Jeep disappear might be one of the easiest WIs to achieve. The Army's RfP was pretty tough; all you need is for Bantam to not even submit, because the deadline is insanely short, and for Willys to be refused an extension (as OTL).

They wanted a 1/4 ton Scout vehicle. and did change the minimum weight slightly. so if just the Quad and Pygmy fail from being too heavy, and Bantam isn't in the game, the Specification still gets changed and the two existing prototypes still get mixed together for a 1/4 tonner a bit heavier than OTL, and Ford and Willys that slightly different vehicle in Quantity.
Look would be slightly closer to the Ford, with Willys running gear for the Production variant, though my dream 'GP' would use the Ford 60HP V8 rather than the Willys 'Go-Devil' inline four

 

[Hammerbolt]

Well, the FW 200 Condor would take over all roles of the Junkers 52

Not really. The FW 200 might have been a good comercial aircraft, but it had severe shortcomings as a miltary model. While it did outrange and outcarried the 52, it required proper airfields with proper runways, it had landing gear issues related to the increase in weight (even after the gear was altered), required longer runways, more maintenance... you'd never see it do the kind of assault landings or short field supply runs the 52 did.

 

[Hammerbolt]

I just had visions of a militarised 2CV [1]

[1] Classed as a heavy tank in Japanese service.

No need for visions, there were quite a few around...

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Not really. The FW 200 might have been a good comercial aircraft, but it had severe shortcomings as a miltary model. While it did outrange and outcarried the 52, it required proper airfields with proper runways, it had landing gear issues related to the increase in weight (even after the gear was altered), required longer runways, more maintenance... you'd never see it do the kind of assault landings or short field supply runs the 52 did.

Could the Germans not get a licence for one of the Italian trimotors? The Savoia Marchetti SM 81 would do everything the JU 52/3m did but better and retain its combat capabilities longer.

Savoia-Marchetti SM.81 Pipistrello - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Hammerbolt]

Could the Germans not get a licence for one of the Italian trimotors? The Savoia Marchetti SM 81 would do everything the JU 52/3m did but better and retain its combat capabilities longer.

Savoia-Marchetti SM.81 Pipistrello - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 763707View attachment 763708

Nazi Germany admiting they need a foreign product of such scale?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Nazi Germany admiting they need a foreign product of such scale?

The JU 52s record in Spain was not great so if they decide they need a quick replacement. Give it German engines and a few other tweaks and hey presto a new "German" transport.

 

[Driftless]

The JU 52s record in Spain was not great so if they decide they need a quick replacement. Give it German engines and a few other tweaks and hey presto a new "German" transport.

Being flippant again: instead of "Tante Ju" this craft might be dubbed "Zia Ju" (if built built or reconfigured by Junkers)

 

[Hammerbolt]

The JU 52s record in Spain was not great so if they decide they need a quick replacement. Give it German engines and a few other tweaks and hey presto a new "German" transport.

Or they could take a page from Luft Hansa and get the DC-2 or the Boeing 247. far more modern aircraft.

And speaking of which, how about an upgraded 247 instead of the DC-3?

 

[marathag]

And speaking of which, how about an upgraded 247 instead of the DC-3?

Stretching the fuselage for more seats, and adding a bit of wing area, like done with the DC-2, doesn't fix the problem with the Boeing, the fuselage is too narrow, and the wing placement did it no favors.
To fix, it's almost a whole new aircraft, that would look similar to the Lockheed Super Electra.

 

[phx1138]

They wanted a 1/4 ton Scout vehicle. and did change the minimum weight slightly. so if just the Quad and Pygmy fail from being too heavy, and Bantam isn't in the game, the Specification still gets changed and the two existing prototypes still get mixed together for a 1/4 tonner a bit heavier than OTL, and Ford and Willys that slightly different vehicle in Quantity.
Look would be slightly closer to the Ford, with Willys running gear for the Production variant, though my dream 'GP' would use the Ford 60HP V8 rather than the Willys 'Go-Devil' inline four

I'm wondering if that happens, though.

They might've wanted the light scout car, but if the time allowed is so crazy short, does the Army open it up? If that happens, I'd agree with you. And a V8/60 *Jeep would be a dream. (One issue: durability. The Go-Devil was industrial strong; I'm less sure the V8/60 was.) More V8/60s would be excellent for the postwar world, especially if it turned out they were Arduns.

 

[Hammerbolt]

Stretching the fuselage for more seats, and adding a bit of wing area, like done with the DC-2, doesn't fix the problem with the Boeing, the fuselage is too narrow, and the wing placement did it no favors.
To fix, it's almost a whole new aircraft, that would look similar to the Lockheed Super Electra.

Ah ok, didn't see how narrow it was.

 

[DougM]

On a personal level…. If we didn’t have DC-3/C47s. Then I would not have just had the pleasure of watching one fly over my house a couple minutes ago…