WI: Russia doesn't withdrawal from the Seven Years War

The loss of Silesia alone would be disastrous for Prussian ambitions. This territory increased the total population by over 40% and was a vital part of the future Prussian industry.

Which makes me wonder if, in the event of some equivalent of the French Revolution Prussia might be take a different path than supporting Austria and Russia.
 
The loss of Silesia alone would be disastrous for Prussian ambitions. This territory increased the total population by over 40% and was a vital part of the future Prussian industry.

Which makes me wonder if, in the event of some equivalent of the French Revolution Prussia might be take a different path than supporting Austria and Russia.

Grimm

Quite possibly. While Prussia took part in the initial invasion of France in 1792-93 I think it was more concerned afterwards with Poland and Austria was having to continually keep one eye on what they were up to, limiting its own efforts somewhat.

If Prussia had suffered such heavy losses, including Mirza Khan's idea of Saxony getting Magdeburg, it would be markedly less powerful and virtually surrounded by enemies. However it would also be bitterly hostile and could make an uneasy alliance with the revolutionaries.

Just had a thought. If Prussia gets mauled like that what happens if/when Joseph organises the Bavaria/Flanders swap. The so called potato war prevented that but if Prussia has been virtually eclipsed it might have gone ahead. Flanmders/Belgium as an independent state would have been wealthy but vulnerable while if the Hapsburg gained Bavaria then their grip on Germany is greatly increased, even if Prussia revives later. [Given the long history of strife between the two nations you might see a rebellion later on but presuming Austria has ruled it for a while and any French rebellion/imperial power is defeated Austria would probably regain control].

Steve
 
The enemies of Prussia had this plan: East Prussia to Russia (as said, they wanted exchange it with Poland for Courland), parts of Belgium to France, western Pomerania (Stettin) back to Sweden, Silesia to Austria, parts of Silesia and some other territories to Saxony.
 
Why would the Austrians give it the their French allies? Would they receive some other territory in exchange?

Actually France will obtain all of the Austrian Netherlands...its part of their agreement with the Austrians of 1757. Austria obtains Parma instead and an annual subsidy from France (6 figures I think it is) Until Silesia is obtained from Prussia.

So if Prussia is out.. France with What is essentially Belgium is not something Britain is going to favour but they will be powerless to prevent it...but it also gives the French even more bargaining room where Britain is concerned once they also obtain Hannover. I am still of the opinion that Britain would trade their gains back for the Historical domains of George III it is the whole rational for the Prussian alliance after all.

So lets say '62 Britain still puts the pressure on for Prussia to make concessions and obtain a general peace or face the loss of its subsidy from Britain.. I can hardly see Frederick making concessions if Britain is unwilling to either so the general feeling must be that they can obtain some Status quo ante bellum at the very least with any gains by their opponents coming from Prussia. This was the Experience of Maria-Theresa in the previous conflict so its not out of the question.

At this point I cannot see Maria- Theresa settling for anything less than the entirety of Silesia. Russia will also have to have its pound of flesh ( Ducal Prussia) to trade to Poland for Courland If the Austrians and Russians continue to press Frederick, he's down to only 60'000 troops they are likely to prevail or force the issue on their own terms by years end in anycase. If Britain ceases its subsidy, Frederick simply tumbles faster.

OTL Elizabeth died giving Frederick a much needed reprieve from the Russians and the Swedes ( Russian negotiated truce there). Here he will likely remain pressed by all 4 to the end.

Sweden will end up with its losses in Pomerania restored or an indemnity. Russian, Austrian and French gains have been discussed that leaves Branden burg with its core and East Pomerania with Saxony perhaps picking up Cleves, Mark and Ravensbruck. East Friesland I am not sure of as its abit far off for any of them but perhaps Russia or Sweden and then traded to Denmark or Oldenburg for something else.

That leaves Britain... I still lean to the status quo ante bellum as it is the pattern of previous conflicts where the British alliance has come out on the back end of things.

There is much on the continent that Britain will want to ameliorate as much as possible even though they have done significantly better in the colonies...its still Europe that counts and the balance of power there that counts.
 
Actually France will obtain all of the Austrian Netherlands...its part of their agreement with the Austrians of 1757. Austria obtains Parma instead and an annual subsidy from France (6 figures I think it is) Until Silesia is obtained from Prussia.

So if Prussia is out.. France with What is essentially Belgium is not something Britain is going to favour but they will be powerless to prevent it...but it also gives the French even more bargaining room where Britain is concerned once they also obtain Hannover. I am still of the opinion that Britain would trade their gains back for the Historical domains of George III it is the whole rational for the Prussian alliance after all.

So lets say '62 Britain still puts the pressure on for Prussia to make concessions and obtain a general peace or face the loss of its subsidy from Britain.. I can hardly see Frederick making concessions if Britain is unwilling to either so the general feeling must be that they can obtain some Status quo ante bellum at the very least with any gains by their opponents coming from Prussia. This was the Experience of Maria-Theresa in the previous conflict so its not out of the question.

At this point I cannot see Maria- Theresa settling for anything less than the entirety of Silesia. Russia will also have to have its pound of flesh ( Ducal Prussia) to trade to Poland for Courland If the Austrians and Russians continue to press Frederick, he's down to only 60'000 troops they are likely to prevail or force the issue on their own terms by years end in anycase. If Britain ceases its subsidy, Frederick simply tumbles faster.

OTL Elizabeth died giving Frederick a much needed reprieve from the Russians and the Swedes ( Russian negotiated truce there). Here he will likely remain pressed by all 4 to the end.

Sweden will end up with its losses in Pomerania restored or an indemnity. Russian, Austrian and French gains have been discussed that leaves Branden burg with its core and East Pomerania with Saxony perhaps picking up Cleves, Mark and Ravensbruck. East Friesland I am not sure of as its abit far off for any of them but perhaps Russia or Sweden and then traded to Denmark or Oldenburg for something else.

That leaves Britain... I still lean to the status quo ante bellum as it is the pattern of previous conflicts where the British alliance has come out on the back end of things.

There is much on the continent that Britain will want to ameliorate as much as possible even though they have done significantly better in the colonies...its still Europe that counts and the balance of power there that counts.

Is there any chance Austria wouldn't give up the Austrian Netherlands to France (I had an embryonic TL idea with this POD, but I was planning on the Austrians taking Bavaria in the 1770's and giving the Bavarian Dukes the Austrian Netherlands as compensation)
 
Is there any chance Austria wouldn't give up the Austrian Netherlands to France (I had an embryonic TL idea with this POD, but I was planning on the Austrians taking Bavaria in the 1770's and giving the Bavarian Dukes the Austrian Netherlands as compensation)

Well, it seems that France wouldn't directly annex the Austrian Netherlands. According to the Treaty of Versailles (1757) that Aurora Borealis commented about, the Duke of Parma (who was a Bourbon too) would become monarch of the Southern Netherlands while Parma would be given to Austria.
 
The loss of Silesia alone would be disastrous for Prussian ambitions. This territory increased the total population by over 40% and was a vital part of the future Prussian industry.

Which makes me wonder if, in the event of some equivalent of the French Revolution Prussia might be take a different path than supporting Austria and Russia.
probably something more akin to neutrality at first and then falling into the same camp as Baden/Wurttemburg and eventually part of the Confed. of the Rhine provided it follows the same course. Saxony and Bavaria will likely be more powerful in this event as much of B-P will have been siphoned off to other powers leaving them only with the core terr.
 
And according to wiki, the whole thing was annulled the next year.

I hadn't realized there was even a third treaty... though that said there is nothing to prevent France from flipping Hannover for the Austrian Neth. If Britain doesn't agree to come to terms. Even if it were to only be Flanders /Brabant and Hainault and not Luxembourg, it would be an intolerable situation for Britain. they will have to bite the bullet in the same way they "encouraged " M-T to retain the southern Netherlands".. Mind you it also seems likely that in that event the plan would likely be re-instated even under the Dukes of Parma the fit is better from a Bourbon pt of view and Parma/Hannover would seem to fit better with Hapsburg plans with regard to Italy and Germany.
 
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