WI: Pope Urban II lived to 1101?

Heaven's Thunder Hammer

Heaven's Thunder Hammer

This is in reference to my own First Crusade Timeline, where Jerusalem was conquered in March 1098 vs July 1099. Let us say for sake of argument, that this energizes Pope Urban II to live just another year or two. What kind of changes would he make vs Paschal II? I am specifically interested in the Holy Land, but other European changes are game too.

Re: The Holy Land - Would he still send Daimbert of Pisa in March 1099 to Jerusalem? My understanding from reading Setton's Crusade Volume I is that we don't know if he was in capacity of a legate or not.

Re: The Crusade of 1101 - I'm guessing another PoD would be the Crusade of 1100, as the success of capturing Jerusalem would still be a major inspiration.

Happy to add more ideas or information too. :)
 
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Tosa Inu

Tosa Inu

Could the Pope use the fact that Catholics took the Levant to push some deeper Agenda? The "Great Schism" would be less thab 50 years, and some creative button pushings and titlings might encourage the Orthodox church of Constantinople to recognize the Pope as their Prinarch, reuniting the broken Church?
 

Nuraghe

well pope Urban is in a difficult situation at home, but the fact that his speech was listened to so much and that it later led to the liberation of the holy land gives him much more prestige and power to be able to deal especially with the HRE claim to advance in central Italy (the future Henrich V has just finished his regency after his father's death and the investiture war goes on) he was also a pupil of gregory vii so i see him to push more reforms in the church now that the imperial power is still weak but he has been in office for over 13 years so the tiredness will start to set in, perhaps before he dies he will make another trip to Germany, this time to put an end to the struggle between the church and the emperor with a compromise similar to worms 1122 (he was present in Canossa, and collaborated with Henry IV when he wasn't arguing with the pope, he was the one in charge by the pope to enforce reforms in HRE ) for relations with the Byzantines I see them as good, perhaps they manage to heal relations between Rhomanoi and non-Norman crusaders (the latter cannot alienate them, they are allies to re-Christianize Sicily and stop the Imperial ambitions) certainly they would work for a reunification of the churches, so that for him that for Alexios the eastern schism was a simple personal excommunication between the papal legate and the patriarch of the time

the power over the sovereigns does not decrease given that Urban excommunicated King Philip of France and emerged victorious, the church becomes more universalist with perhaps more cardinals/important ecclesiastical offices in the hands of foreigners (from France and England and perhaps Germany if the relationship with Caesar calms down) we will see many more adventures in Iberia and Africa and a council with the Orthodoxs
 
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Elfwine

Tosa Inu said:
Could the Pope use the fact that Catholics took the Levant to push some deeper Agenda? The "Great Schism" would be less thab 50 years, and some creative button pushings and titlings might encourage the Orthodox church of Constantinople to recognize the Pope as their Prinarch, reuniting the broken Church?
Click to expand...

What do you mean as far as "recognized as their prinarch"? The Orthodox church in the Middle Ages (and beyond, as far as I can tell) seems to have been fairly consistently willing to accept the Pope as first among equals, but not as having supreme/singular authority.
 
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