WI: Operation Valkyrie
- Thread starter galileo-034
- Start date
Umm... Aside Ethiopia... Look at portugal or spain facisim was quite successful there right
MerryPrankster, strawman. The question is not whether communism is good or bad but whether Germany should be spared the post-war terms, as you agree it would not be, if only a few top figures were killed first.
I wasn't directing my comments at you. YOU'RE not one of those people who thinks anti-communism is a bad thing, considering how many people you've condemned as being "Stalinist."
Well the post war demands are inevitable with this POD IMO.
All im saying is that even if Valkarye succeeds(highly unlikely) it will at most lead to a democratic germany, and a more democratic east.
Eurofed and Markus:
I wouldn't go that far. The AV people have made interesting arguments, like GR pointing out in an earlier discussion that if the war in the West ended in 1944 there'd be an Allied invasion of Japan without nukes (which would get bad) or Blairwitch pointing out Guderian would be in a strong position to take control even if the plotters neutralized the Gestapo and SS.
I wouldn't go that far. The AV people have made interesting arguments, like GR pointing out in an earlier discussion that if the war in the West ended in 1944 there'd be an Allied invasion of Japan without nukes (which would get bad) or Blairwitch pointing out Guderian would be in a strong position to take control even if the plotters neutralized the Gestapo and SS.
Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
Because it's almost always used as a fig leaf for people trying to defend the most inexcusable excesses of right-wing extremists, up to and including people saying Nazi Germany was in the moral right for fighting Stalin's Soviet Union.
Merry, you just came off a kick for this passive-aggressive strawman crap. Do you want it to happen again? Lumping people you disagree with into vague groups (without naming individual members) and then attributing all types of ridiculous beliefs to them is not welcome here.
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I'm trying to remember when, if ever, I called anyone on the board a Stalinist.
Constantinos, again how does that happen? It does little or nothing to stop Stalin from seizing his sphere of influence and the arguement that the British or Americans will go easier on this new and shaky German regime simply has not been made yet.
Constantinos, again how does that happen? It does little or nothing to stop Stalin from seizing his sphere of influence and the arguement that the British or Americans will go easier on this new and shaky German regime simply has not been made yet.
Just as so-called "anti-fascism" is used as a fig leaf for people trying to defend the most inexcusable excesses of left-wing extremists, up to and including people defending the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution and anything the Khmer Rouge did.
JohnS
Banned
Modern European far-right with ties to fascism tries to portay Nazi Germany or its supporters as good by portaying their fight as "anti-communism". While Nazi Germany used that term, it is not the same with modern meaning, as for Nazis communism was based on race and they identified "anti-communism" as extermination of Jews. In case of Valkyrie group their leaders wanted to ethnically cleanse much of Jewish population from Europe.
This kind of belief usually comes with idolization of Waffen SS.
Hitler had Nazism not Fascism.The two are not the same ideologies. Of course while Valkyrie group were largely people that could classify as Fascists, it all depends on point of view. The Czech or Polish people probably would prefer their own communist governments than being forced labor ruled by Fascist Valkyrie Germany(not that it had a chance of existing in the first place).
Most of the plotters were far right nationalists who were supportive of authoritarian rule with support by aristocracy and military.Not a democracy as we know it.
None of which equal to organized industrial attempt to exterminate whole nations and classifying nations as something not human.
Since Burton already addressed your excessive insulting personalizations, I will just address the bit about Communism.
While Fascism was (and is) a blight on Humanity, Communism, at least in practical terms, was/is equally bad. To condemn one you must automatically condemn the other for they are two sides of the same coin. Both represent authoritarianism gone wild and produced the most indefensible regimes in modern human history (arguably in ALL of human history, although the early European colonization efforts in the New World provide a serious competitor for that rather unwanted crown).
While Fascism was (and is) a blight on Humanity, Communism, at least in practical terms, was/is equally bad. To condemn one you must automatically condemn the other for they are two sides of the same coin. Both represent authoritarianism gone wild and produced the most indefensible regimes in modern human history (arguably in ALL of human history, although the early European colonization efforts in the New World provide a serious competitor for that rather unwanted crown).
Markus, I said no such thing but am not sure if deliberate dishonesty disqualifies someone from the discussion.
The fact that the conspirators where ruthless opportunists for an extended period, at best, and often outright Nazis will remain the truth.
And do you plan to offer any evidence of the involvment of the socialists you mentioned in the conspiracy or will you accept my description of them as having been mentioned as useful figures in a hypothetical post-Hitler government to burnish the less than pristine credentials of the plotters without having been involved with the conspiracy, aware of the conspiracy or aware that their names had come up as possible office holders by the conspiracy?
The fact that the conspirators where ruthless opportunists for an extended period, at best, and often outright Nazis will remain the truth.
And do you plan to offer any evidence of the involvment of the socialists you mentioned in the conspiracy or will you accept my description of them as having been mentioned as useful figures in a hypothetical post-Hitler government to burnish the less than pristine credentials of the plotters without having been involved with the conspiracy, aware of the conspiracy or aware that their names had come up as possible office holders by the conspiracy?
Eurofed
Banned
But what about Nazism
Non-democidal fascism and non-democidal communism are more or less two faces of the same coin, the "moderate" form of totalitarianism. Democidal fascism (AKA Nazism) and democidal communism (AKA Leninism-Stalinism-Maoism) are again two faces of the same coin, the extreme form of totalitarianism. Ideological differences were (in both cases, but ever more so in the latter) much more window-dressing than anything else, and nowhere that important (the two sides shared entwined roots and parallel developments anyway), since the whole point of both variants was brutal domination, the only true feature that mattered the extremes of brutal domination which a totalitarian regime would go, no matter the fancy propaganda. "Moderate" totalitarianism was a most unfortunate development for the peoples that found itself ruled by it, but in limited doses, the world could live with it if it had to. Democidal totalitarianism was one of the worst scourges mankind has ever experienced. Nonetheless, even the latter was not, nor ought to be, a moral and political licence to heap whatever abuse the rest of the world may fancy on the peoples that unwisely accepted its rule. If one cares about human rights, collective punishment is one threshold that must never be crossed.
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Eurofed
Banned
The difference between proudly gloryfing democide as a way of life and brazenly justifying it as a necessary evil goes way below irrelevant, as it does running it by picking victims because they belong to the wrong ethnicity, the wrong social class, or in an arbitrary way because the local regime goons have to fill up their kill-quotas with real or imagined opponents.
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