WI: Operation Valkyrie

[Urban fox]

And how do you explain the fact the the coup did actually work until word got out Hitler survived, that even actual Nazis followed the plotter´s orders until Hitler countermanded them?

Because for a short time confusion over just what was happening in Berlin give everyone pause. Still even if Hitler had died once it becomes clear the plotters were trying to seize power and they in fact had likely assessnated the Fuhrer, they were doomed.

WTF? The Hitlerjugend and LSSAH divisions were being cut into pieces in Normandy!

My point was that they and Waffen-SS combat troops wouldnt be disarmed without a fight the way desk-bound SS men in a cushy Paris office did.

Maybe you could tell us what combat troops the SS had in or near Berlin?

I dont think the SS had any serious combat formations in or near Berlin at the time, nor would it need to. The army by 1944 was as much a Nazi creature as the SS itself. Which was my main point actully.

Hardly! In 1918 Germany had just defeated Romania and Russia and made big gains in the west. In mid-1944 Germany had been defeated in the east, south, west, the air and the Atlantic again and again for well over a year.

In 1941 The Red Army had been pushed to the outskirts of Moscow and any reasonable person at the time might've throght the Sviets were doomed. The Nazis were very good at keeping up the German will to resist and their propaganda stressed that things while difficult weren’t entirely hopeless, making use of historical examples liker Fredrick the Greats 11 hour escape from utter defeat due to a split in the allied forces facing him. Also reason & logic had little to do with German thinking at the time, they thought they could still win, they throght Hitler had an ace up his sleeve, thats what mattered.

 

[Markus]

Because for a short time confusion over just what was happening in Berlin give everyone pause. Still even if Hitler had died once it becomes clear the plotters were trying to seize power and they in fact had likely assessnated the Fuhrer, they were doomed.

Well, that is your theory.

My point was that they and Waffen-SS combat troops wouldnt be disarmed without a fight the way desk-bound SS men in a cushy Paris office did.

And my point is that they do not need to be disarmed as they posed no threat to the plotters.

I dont think the SS had any serious combat formations in or near Berlin at the time, nor would it need to. The army by 1944 was as much a Nazi creature as the SS itself. Which was my main point actully.

Another theory. A wild one!

 

[Markus]

Markus, in late 1918 Germany was losing on all fronts, had lost all three allies which freed up powerful new allied forces and threatened more fronts for Germany while all they could do to slow the Allied advance was to abandon most of the occupied territory in the west with vast material along with several divisions of men left to delay the Allied advance.

This situation did not prevent millions of Germans after WWI from believing they were winning until the dolchstoss.

In WW1 huge German victories and utter defeat happened in a matter of months of each other. That and the press censorship did not allow the public to have a realistic view of the situation.

In WW2 it was VERY different: Stalingrad, Tunis, Sicily, Naples, Kursk, the massive air raids, the invasion. Nothing but defeat after defeat over the last 1.5 years.

 

[Typo]

In WW1 huge German victories and utter defeat happened in a matter of months of each other. That and the press censorship did not allow the public to have a realistic view of the situation.

In WW2 it was VERY different: Stalingrad, Tunis, Sicily, Naples, Kursk, the massive air raids, the invasion. Nothing but defeat after defeat over the last 1.5 years.

It's funny because the post-war view OTL among a lot of people was basically: had only Hitler -died- than the Heer generals would have saved the fatherland. Hell half the posts in this thread is about a variation of that.

Frankly, it's not that far of a stretch to do an about-face on that: Dolchstoßlegende was never fact heavy anyway.

 

[Typo]

Well, that is your theory.





And my point is that they do not need to be disarmed as they posed no threat to the plotters.





Another theory. A wild one!

Dude, you got nothing other than appealing to ignorance (IT'S JUST A THEORY) and asserting without evidence

 

[JohnS]

controlled press in Germany refused to even bring up Valkyrie because it undermined their effort to promote the notion all Germans were collectively guilty for the Nazi crimes.

Members of Valkyrie group were involved in Nazi crimes. Nebe was infamous for murdering thousands of Jews and shaping the policy of murdering Roma people. Numerous military members of Valkyrie were engaged in murdering civilians and POWs in the East, planning ethnic cleansing, pillaging civilian population and other crimes. Helldorf the chief of Berlin police was notorious for arresting wealthy Jews and was behind the arson of Jewish houses and synagogues, he also came up with the idea of Jewish Ghetto in Berlin.
Ewald Oskar Ludwig Loeser who survived Nazi trials and who was proposed for minister of finance by plotters was sentenced by Allies for war crimes(use of slave labor) in Krupp Trial for 7 years. Had others survived they would likely face trials as well.
The Valkyrie group wouldn't serve as proof that not all Germans were guilty of Nazi crimes, because people involved were guilty of many crimes(Loeser mentioned above serves as an example that ended in Allied sentence).

Even those that were not implicated in war crimes weren't good role models-Goerdeler who was to become Chancellor was so antisemitic that he blamed Jews for the war before his death at Nazi hands.

As for Stauffenberg-besides the quote already mentioned by other users, in his memoirs he recalls that his unit prevented Poles and other nationalities from fleeing Soviet atrocities and let through only ethnic Germans. He expresses belief that "short work will be made with them" by Soviets, and those who survive likely will be sent to Siberia.So even if he wasn't directly involved he was quite supportive of Poles being mass murdered.
Stauffenberg: a family history, 1905-1944 Peter Hoffmann, page 115

But ten days later he referred to mass executions or deportations by the Soviets in their newly acquired part of Poland.

"I do not have the impresion that our friends the Bolsheviks are using kid-gloves. This war is truly oa scourge of God for the entire Polish upper class. They ran from us eastward. We are not letting anyoune except ethnic Germans cross the Vistula westward. The Russians will likeluy make short work of them(...) Many of them will go to Siberia"

Hoffman then writes that after 21st September Stauffenberg was involved in pillaging Polish property of which he was happy and wrote "unheard of booty".

After final line between Soviets and Nazis was drawn Stauffenberg wrote"It is essential that we begin systematic colonization in Poland. But I have no fear that this will not occur".

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

snip

I'm curious, was the main guy (I can't remember his name. Von Stauffenberg or something?) every charged with anything? It's not a huge area of interest for me, but your statement here made me wonder. I would be interested in knowing.

Edit: Of course, I mean guilty of any war crimes, involved in any evils, etc.

 

[JohnS]

I'm curious, was the main guy (I can't remember his name. Von Stauffenberg or something?) every charged with anything?Edit: Of course, I mean guilty of any war crimes, involved in any evils, etc.

Stauffenberg was not the main man behind the plot. Since he died before end of the war, he wasn't charged with anything.

Possible war crimes charges that could be investigated:
-1939 campaign in Poland, I don't know if preventing civilians from fleeing from Soviet atrocities can be classified as crime, but taking part in theft of Polish property probably can be

-there is an interesting fact that American POWs were massacred as he was officer in 10th Panzer Division in Tunisia in Sidi Bou Zid

But he was not the main man behind the plot.There are other more important members of Valkyrie group that were involved in war crimes, no questions about it.

 

[Typo]

I beg to differ, Stauffenburg was the heart and soul of the plot, not because he outranks anyone, but because out of all the plotists he's the one who really believed in it, and the only one who really had the determination to carry it through.

 

[JohnS]

but because out of all the plotists he's the one who really believed in it, and the only one who really had the determination to carry it through.

Well if we want to know his nature, then the stated goal of continued war against Soviet Union, protection of German war criminals from international courts, and demand that Western Allies accept German occupation of Central and Eastern Europe tells much.

If you look at the proposed government by the Valkyrie Group, you get people like Goerdeler who demanded 1941 borders of Germany in East and West, and further annexations, mainly Tyrol from Italy as well as acceptance of German domination over Europe, Loeser (already mentioned as responsible for pillaging other countries and slave labour), Tresckow(encouraging repressions against civilians in anti-partisan operations in the East, cooperation with SS units murdering Jews, slave labour, signing orders for kidnapping children for slave labour). And that's just at first look without going deeper into their members and their actions.
The Valkyrie group wasn't a nice picture, in fact it was pretty dark one.

 

[Typo]

Well if we want to know his nature, then the stated goal of continued war against Soviet Union, protection of German war criminals from international courts, and demand that Western Allies accept German occupation of Central and Eastern Europe tells much.

Of course, I'm just stating his position within the coup, not making a moral judgement of him.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Yes, as has been noted before, the entire leadership of the plot had been ready to support Hitler before there was a Hitler to follow, and had been entirely enthusiastic for the war.

Their decision to turn against Hitler and the war was based on the fact that the war being lost by Hitler.

Further, the entire premise of the coup was that the Western Allies would agree to a negotiated settlement allowing Germany to avoid disarmament and keep at least some of Hitler's gains. Which was not going to happen.

 

[Markus]

Yes, as has been noted before, the entire leadership of the plot had been ready to support Hitler before there was a Hitler to follow, and had been entirely enthusiastic for the war.

Their decision to turn against Hitler and the war was based on the fact that the war being lost by Hitler.

What a bullshit! Yes, they were nationalists but latecomers like von Staufenberg turned away from Hitler when they saw the Nazi war crimes machine in high gear between 39 and 42. Oster, Beck and a couple of high ranking Generals opposed Hitler even before the war broke out, Goerdeler too so stop spreading such lies!

 

[JohnS]

s like von Staufenberg turned away from Hitler when they saw the Nazi war crimes machine in high gear between 39 and 42.

Stauffenberg statements from 1939 are quite clear-not only he was glad that Poles were massacred and cleansed by Soviets,but he also prevented them to escape to safety(while allowing Germans to do so). This doesn't strike me as a man concerned much by mass murder of non-Germans.
My knowledge of German officers concerned about massacres made by Wehrmacht suggests that they were more worried about discipline and image of Wehrmacht rather than any concern for people such as Poles or Jews.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Stauffenberg memoirs from 1939 are quite clear-not only he was glad that Poles were massacred and cleansed by Soviets,but he also prevented them to escape to safety(while allowing Germans to do so). This doesn't strike me as a man concerned much by mass murder of non-Germans.
My knowledge of German officers concerned about massacres made by Wehrmacht suggests that they were more worried about discipline and image of Wehrmacht rather than any concern for people such as Poles or Jews.

Out of curiosity, where can you find these memoirs?

I wasn't aware he'd even written them. I thought the nasty remarks ("this country is full of Jews and half-breeds") came from letters or journals.

 

[Typo]

What a bullshit! Yes, they were nationalists but latecomers like von Staufenberg turned away from Hitler when they saw the Nazi war crimes machine in high gear between 39 and 42. Oster, Beck and a couple of high ranking Generals opposed Hitler even before the war broke out, Goerdeler too so stop spreading such lies!

The plotists were a mixed bunch: You had men like Von Tresckow who was genuinely ashamed of Germany's crimes. You had men like Stauffenburg, Beck and Rommel who would have being alright with the whole Nazi thing as long as Germany keeps on winning, and whose principle complaints with the Nazis is for losing the war (and whose position pre-1939 was the fear that the Nazis would do as such), then you had guys like Nebe who were outright opportunists and wanted to save their own skin because the allies were probably going to execute them for the whole killing the jews thing.

So yeah, I know the legend of the German resistance is important for people trying to be apologists for WWII Germany and the "clean wehrmacht" thing. But seriously, they weren't nearly as rosy as you think.

 

[Markus]

Stauffenberg memoirs from 1939 are quite clear...

You need glasses! I wrote: "latecomers like von Staufenberg turned away from Hitler ... between 39 and 42" I assume you are familiar with the meaning of that word?

And here I got some info that should shut up BS-peddlers: The cabinet list of the post-Nazi goverment would have included three socialists who had all spend some time in concentration camps or prisons after 1933. The allegation these men "had been ready to support Hitler before there was a Hitler to follow, and had been entirely enthusiastic for the war and that their decision to turn against Hitler and the war was based on the fact that the war being lost by Hitler" is nothing short of disgusting!

 

[JohnS]

And here I got some info that should shut up BS-peddlers: The cabinet list of the post-Nazi government would have included three socialists who had all spend some time in concentration camps or prisons after 1933. The allegation these men "had been ready to support Hitler before there was a Hitler to follow, and had been entirely enthusiastic for the war and that their decision to turn against Hitler and the war was based on the fact that the war being lost by Hitler" is nothing short of disgusting!

These three men weren't the leaders of the plotters and the whole planned Valkyrie government as well as movement. The main figures of Valkyrie group were quite involved with numerous crimes, racist ideas and plans, and completely out of touch with reality. Their terms of ceasefire to Allies actually read like demands of victorious Germany. It is no wonder that Allies pursued unconditional surrounded if the German resistance was made out of so many nationalists, military criminals and dreamed of things like German hegemony over Europe.

You had men like Von Tresckow who was genuinely ashamed of Germany's crimes.

That's..debatable. Research on his activity in the East shows that he wasn't too much concerned with plight of civilian population and actually endorsed personally some very harsh measures against civilian population.

I wasn't aware he'd even written them. I thought the nasty remarks ("this country is full of Jews and half-breeds") came from letters or journals.

Yes, apologies for the wrong word. The statements and memories of Stauffenberg are from Stauffenberg: a family history, 1905-1944 by Peter Hoffmann. And note that this a very pro-Stauffenberg author, so if he quotes such things who knows what else remains unmentioned.

 

[Typo]

You need glasses! I wrote: "latecomers like von Staufenberg turned away from Hitler ... between 39 and 42" I assume you are familiar with the meaning of that word?

And here I got some info that should shut up BS-peddlers: The cabinet list of the post-Nazi goverment would have included three socialists who had all spend some time in concentration camps or prisons after 1933. The allegation these men "had been ready to support Hitler before there was a Hitler to follow, and had been entirely enthusiastic for the war and that their decision to turn against Hitler and the war was based on the fact that the war being lost by Hitler" is nothing short of disgusting!

Also, releasing three ant-Nazi political leaders and turning against Hitler because he was losing the war are hardly mutually exclusive concepts

 

[Grimm Reaper]

The three socialists were not in any fashion involved with the plot or I'm sure Markus would have said so, ergo they were seen as useful window dressing for a future government by the conspirators, nothing more.