WI: Muslim Vikings?

[theSmartPenguin23]

Inspired by the Vikings TV show (not historically accurate of course), where a character named Floki discovers Islam and is fascinated by it during a raid on Algeciras. He appreciates their devotion to Allah and his amazement at it even brings him to question his own pagan beliefs. What if then, through trade or war with the Islamic world, the Vikings or at least a substantial portion of them, adopt Islam as their religion? Would it survive or would they be killed for being heretics? They would certainly be accepting of the idea of "jihad" and holy war, which they could use as a motivation for further raiding and wars.

How could you achieve this to the point where Scandinavia becomes Islamic? Would there be a forcible Christianisation campaign down the line like there was in OTL?

 

[Nivek]

Inspired by the Vikings TV show (not historically accurate of course), where a character named Floki discovers Islam and is fascinated by it during a raid on Algeciras. He appreciates their devotion to Allah and his amazement at it even brings him to question his own pagan beliefs. What if then, through trade or war with the Islamic world, the Vikings or at least a substantial portion of them, adopt Islam as their religion? Would it survive or would they be killed for being heretics? They would certainly be accepting of the idea of "jihad" and holy war, which they could use as a motivation for further raiding and wars.

How could you achieve this to the point where Scandinavia becomes Islamic? Would there be a forcible Christianisation campaign down the line like there was in OTL?

Islam would have to come first than Christianity to the nordic lands, some could argue is even more advantageous to already viking rites(the raids now can be religious fueled, polygamy allow to retain concubines, the loophole to enslave non Muslim is pretty tempting and entering the slave trade in the MENA too) but is that, being there first and winning adepts first. If anything the Franks would be shitting their parts as the great heathen army is now a great northern Muslim army

 

[Silver01]

The only "vikings " i see converting is the Kievan Rus since places like Denmark are just to close to chirstian centers

 

[Vulgarian]

I would see muslim vikings/varangians being more likely if either a) the Khazars convert to Islam or b) Arabs take constantinople.

In both case the influence would obviously come from the East and the Rus.

I would tend to agree that the Danes in particular are very close to other Christian centres and would probably not take to Islam. Sweden tended to look more to the East.

One interesting scenaro would be that Sweden becomes muslim and other scandinavian countries tend to become Christian. Could lead to religous backed stuggle over Norway.

Muslim vikings could lead to something like a longer viking age, with scandinavian barbary pirates in the middle ages.

 

[Jürgen]

The problem with the spread of Islam to Scandinavia is that it offer the Scandinavians nothing. It ban light beer which north Europeans drank all the time to avoid getting sick from drinking water, it ban pigs which were a major source of protein, the fasting period moves around instead of lying at the same period every year, the mandatory five prayers doesn’t fit with the local day rhythm. Political it create unnecessary conflict with ones neighbors, while Muslim countries lies to far away to be good allies and they were minor trading partners. It does’t give the kings access to the Church infrastructure they used to centralize their states.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Also, fasting from sunrise to sunset during Scandinavian long summer days would not appeal to people of Norway or Sweden

 

[Vulgarian]

The Volga Bulgars were very far north and they still converted to Islam.

It does offer something to the Vikings, in much the same way that Christianity does, it helps centralisation and state formation.

Does it offer something more than Christianity? Probably not really, but there are some advantages of actually being at odds with neighbours and free of religious pressure to conform with them. Christian states were under a lot of pressure to stop enslaving Christians and slave trading was a pretty major part of viking economies. In the long run, being Christian would probably offer more advantages in terms of friendly relations and trade and development, but these aren't alway the major factors in decisionmaking in the moment.

 

[Jürgen]

Also, fasting from sunrise to sunset during Scandinavian long summer days would not appeal to people of Norway or Sweden

It would not appeal to Danes either our night in the summer is 3-4 hours long. Fundamental adapting Islam to agricultural society north of the Alps would changing the religion so much that it seen as heretical by any other Muslims. The Volga Bulgars who had to minor adjustments to adapt the religion to their climate and culture were seen as border line pagans.

 

[Hvalrossen]

It is more likely a Muslim Norse people would occur as a result of Norse settlement in or around major Islamic centers such as the Middle East and North Africa, than in Scandinavia.

 

[Euphemios]

It bans light beer which north Europeans drank all the time to avoid getting sick from drinking water, it bans pigs which were a major source of protein, the fasting period moves around instead of lying at the same period every year...

Firstly, the theory that alcohol was drunken to avoid disease is long debunked.
Secondly, the Scandinavians had fish and could import other livestock if so needed.
Thirdly and lastly, the movement across the calendar does not exist within the Hijri calendar, which will have no competition present due to the conversion and the fact that the inhabitants did not originally have their own.

 

[Ursogulos]

Thirdly and lastly, the movement across the calendar does not exist within the Hijri calendar, which will have no competition present due to the conversion and the fact that the inhabitants did not originally have their own.

Meaning? They can adopt a calendar of their own which will be derived from Hijri nonetheless. Long Fasting hours are merely a nuisance and not the ultimate obstruction. And Alcohol, yeah I agree with you. Kievan Rus or Swedes are more likely to convert as they looked more eastwards. Or Perhaps a renegade warlord during his stay/raid in Andalusia goes back to capture scotland? Scotland because it was among the least Christianized lands of British Isles by that time.

 

[Vulgarian]

As far as alcohol goes...

Timur was a muslim, as were all his soldiers:

"The Spanish Ambassador Clavijo was one witness to many bacchanalian orgies which owed more to the heathen traditions of Genghis Khan and the Mongols than the strictures of Islam. A beautiful cup-bearer was assigned to each man at the feast...to ensure that the guest's golden goblet was kept full at all times. Refusing a toast, in which the entire contents of the vessel had to be downed, was considered a serious breach of etiquette and of discourtesy towards the emperor. Teetotallers generally discovered a sudden affection for the grape on such occasions. Feasts invariably ended in a drunken blur."
Justin Marozzi. Tamerlane: Sword of Islam, Conqueror of the World.

I'm sure accommodations would be made.

 

[Dagoth Ur]

As far as alcohol goes...

Timur was a muslim, as were all his soldiers:

"The Spanish Ambassador Clavijo was one witness to many bacchanalian orgies which owed more to the heathen traditions of Genghis Khan and the Mongols than the strictures of Islam. A beautiful cup-bearer was assigned to each man at the feast...to ensure that the guest's golden goblet was kept full at all times. Refusing a toast, in which the entire contents of the vessel had to be downed, was considered a serious breach of etiquette and of discourtesy towards the emperor. Teetotallers generally discovered a sudden affection of the grape on such occasions. Feasts invariably ended in a drunken blur."
Justin Marozzi. Tamerlane: Sword of Islam, Conqueror of the World.

I'm sure accommodations would be made.

People in general seem to think most Muslims in history were extremists or fundamentalists when Wahhabism is only about 150 years old and started as a reaction to western imperialism. The Bible and Kur'an both prescribe death for homosexual activity, but you had Edward II and Mehmed the Conqueror, both pretty fond of men/boys, and not put to death for it.

 

[Euphemios]

...

Defamation was practically an English national sport in the 14th century, with Richard II having to re-enact statutes against it despite the earlier law of Edward I still being in force.
Edward II was much hated due to the misfortunes during his reign, one consequence of which was the insurrection by an impostor which was put down. It is only natural that his reputation would be dragged through the mud after his later usurpation and murder, which was assisted by his wife, of all possible conspirators.
As for Mehmet, he had no lack of those who hated him either, both at his frontiers and further abroad in the European kingdoms. Hungary notably broke a truce in the time of the regency during his first reign, urged on by the Catholic Church.
I believe it hasty that anyone would accept these reports, given that James I and other figures also suffered similar hits to their good name.

 

[Dagoth Ur]

Defamation was practically an English national sport in the 14th century, with Richard II having to re-enact statutes against it despite the earlier law of Edward I still being in force.
Edward II was much hated due to the misfortunes during his reign, one consequence of which was the insurrection by an impostor which was put down. It is only natural that his reputation would be dragged through the mud after his later usurpation and murder, which was assisted by his wife, of all possible conspirators.
As for Mehmet, he had no lack of those who hated him either, both at his frontiers and further abroad in the European kingdoms. Hungary notably broke a truce in the time of the regency during his first reign, urged on by the Catholic Church.
I believe it hasty that anyone would accept these reports, given that James I and other figures also suffered similar hits to their good name.

I don't disagree with you at all. None of that changes the fact that nobody used their homosexual activities, whether real or alleged, to advocate for putting them to death. Even today there are Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan practicing bacha bazi, and notoriously Catholic Church sex abuses. Nobody but extremists call for their execution.
I'm using all this to say, basically, I agree with Vulgarian that what the Kur'an says about alcohol and pork and premarital sex has very little to do with what would occur with certain societal and economic pressures. Balkan Muslims drink like fish and eat pork sometimes, Muslims all over have a decent amount of premarital sex. It's well known you don't have to fast during Ramazan if you're sick, pregnant, working hard labor, or have some other good circumstance. Twenty-one hours of daylight is easy enough to use as a circumstance. Vikings wouldn't have any problem sidestepping those "rules" if there's great incentive to convert to Islam. I'm just tired of people thinking Muslims will fatwa anyone who drinks beer, eats pork, or eats during Ramazan; and that's an inaccurate reason for why Scandinavians in the middle ages wouldn't convert.

 

[Jürgen]

Okay so the Norse convert to a far off foreign religion, which brings them no benefit at all and doesn't obey one single of the religious rules this religion demand of its worshippers 👍👍. But yes if the Norse decides to not follow a single Islamic rule, then yes they won't suffer from Islam really not adapted to be practiced by farmers living in a temperate climate. But more important let's look at the top-down Christian conversion of Scandinavia:

The first Christian King of Denmark Harald Klak was driven out by his co-kings, the second Christian king Harald Bluetooth a century later was killed in a Pagan uprising lead by his Christian son Sweyn Forkbeard, whose successor pretty much decided to ignore the pagans for the next 150 year. The first Christian king of Norway also ended up falling in battle to a Pagan uprising which looked to the rather religious tolerant royal Danish house.

The Norse Pagans accepted the new Christian rule, because a pro-pagan Christian kings was the best they could get. If the king convert to some foreign religion which haven't foreign backing from the Franks and other Christian kings, they would simply kill the kings in question and any converts.

 

[Dagoth Ur]

Okay so the Norse convert to a far off foreign religion, which brings them no benefit at all and doesn't obey one single of the religious rules this religion demand of its worshippers 👍👍. But yes if the Norse decides to not follow a single Islamic rule, then yes they won't suffer from Islam really not adapted to be practiced by farmers living in a temperate climate. But more important let's look at the top-down Christian conversion of Scandinavia:

The first Christian King of Denmark Harald Klak was driven out by his co-kings, the second Christian king Harald Bluetooth a century later was killed in a Pagan uprising lead by his Christian son Sweyn Forkbeard, whose successor pretty much decided to ignore the pagans for the next 150 year. The first Christian king of Norway also ended up falling in battle to a Pagan uprising which looked to the rather religious tolerant royal Danish house.

The Norse Pagans accepted the new Christian rule, because a pro-pagan Christian kings was the best they could get. If the king convert to some foreign religion which haven't foreign backing from the Franks and other Christian kings, they would simply kill the kings in question and any converts.

See now, these are great reasons. I fully agree with you. This is why I think it's implausible for them to convert to Islam unless at least the Franks also become Muslim. Despite the anti-Christian rebellions, Christianity was too great a tool for organization and percolation of technology and economic tactics from the Franks, that all the kings wanted to be Christian to strengthen their rule. If the Franks became Muslim my guess is the Scandinavians would too. Nothing to do with beer, pork, or fasting. A Muslim king without Muslim Frankish traders and diplomats also promoting the religion would just be a non-starter.

 

[Lions21]

The only "vikings " i see converting is the Kievan Rus since places like Denmark are just to close to chirstian centers

The Kievan Rus weren't vikings thats a myth propogated by the Germans in the court of Queen Catherine.

 

[Lions21]

Islam in places far from its borders was spread through trade routes, so you'd have to make Muslim trading to Scandinavia much stronger than OTL.

There would be two ways to achieve this, firstly as @Dagoth Ur said have the Franks and a few others such as the English, Irish or Frisians be Muslim. Or have an overall much weaker christian world in general.

 

[Ursogulos]

Okay so the Norse convert to a far off foreign religion, which brings them no benefit at all and doesn't obey one single of the religious rules this religion demand of its worshippers 👍👍. But yes if the Norse decides to not follow a single Islamic rule, then yes they won't suffer from Islam really not adapted to be practiced by farmers living in a temperate climate. But more important let's look at the top-down Christian conversion of Scandinavia:

The first Christian King of Denmark Harald Klak was driven out by his co-kings, the second Christian king Harald Bluetooth a century later was killed in a Pagan uprising lead by his Christian son Sweyn Forkbeard, whose successor pretty much decided to ignore the pagans for the next 150 year. The first Christian king of Norway also ended up falling in battle to a Pagan uprising which looked to the rather religious tolerant royal Danish house.

The Norse Pagans accepted the new Christian rule, because a pro-pagan Christian kings was the best they could get. If the king convert to some foreign religion which haven't foreign backing from the Franks and other Christian kings, they would simply kill the kings in question and any converts.

Hmm that is true. Poor Olaf. But on the sidenote, scotland is in a better position to be ruled by muslim vikings (with a large Pagan population). And while drawing analogy between the Nazarene rulers of scandinavia and their misadventure with a probable muslim one, it should be noted that Muslims can be tolerant of pagans. Unlike nazarenes, they have one secret weapon......jizya! So they are in no hurry to convert their kinsmen and have a steady revenue flowing from the populace and also dedicate themselves to raiding other settlements with economic and (possible military) ties established with Qurtuba Emirate. Some strict islamic rules will be circumvented by rulers and there can always be active sufi orders in the region, who were the backbone in converting the pagan populace in India and Nusantara OTL (poor analogy, yeah I know)