WI Hamidian Parlimentarianism, or Shiny Happy Ottoman Empire

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Not backfiring on you old chap.... backfiring on him and resulting in him being kicked. I noticed you were not offended by them, but Ian did not and applied the boot, hence my thinking that they are joking sarcasms that he has missed or taken very seriously.


Sargon

A Timeline of mine: The Roman Emperor Who Lost His Nose

Most likely someone reported Faeelin's comments to Ian and he took action because of that.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

What do you want instead of Vilayets? It was pretty clear the current system wasn't working. Is your problem with the organization of the provinces or the name? Eyalet is a perfectly good word, it was just changed to trumpet the difference - a small change in personnel could eliminate that. As for the province boundaries, these are generally based upon natural units, but not entirely, so there should be no problem rearranging them. However, I don't see them being of much different size - too small would result in too many provinces to staff, and too large would get unweildy and make the governors too powerful. Eliminating a level of hierarchy (like eschewing vilayets/eyalets and going straight to sancaks (probably names "vilayets" or "eyalets") is a possibility, but would cause a "span of control" problem for the central government. But really, you can come up with anything if you just think it out and make it logical.

For instance, you could have some sort of province intermediate in size between a vilayet and a sancak grouped together in "inspectorate generals" where some roving inspector checks abuses (the Ottomans often appointed special inspectors for this purpose) - the Tanzimat men were pretty creative in developing solutions, so you can't go too wrong with at least a basic knowledge of the Ottoman Empire, which you obviously have more than.

It's actually more than one POD, all in August and September 1862: Bismarck doesn't become Prussian prime minister, Frederick Ward doesn't die fighting the Taiping and Lee's plans for the Maryland Campaign don't make their way to McClellan. There's probably at least one more that I completely forgot and will have to dig through my many notes to deduce. Sloppy sloppy sloppy!

I don't want to get rid of the Tanzimat (a general trend), not even the reorganization of the provincial administration, just the vilayets (a particular detail), and only for 24 years. 22 years, now that I think about it, since nobody's going to care about it once the Balkan War starts. (As for what the Balkan war is, I can assure you that you won't like it.) After that I've got my own ideas.



Should we petition Ian to unkick him then?

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

What do you want instead of Vilayets? It was pretty clear the current system wasn't working. Is your problem with the organization of the provinces or the name?

The name is just a detail, but I tend to obsess over details. I'm also rather conservative about messing with them.

Eyalet is a perfectly good word, it was just changed to trumpet the difference - a small change in personnel could eliminate that.

Then I can sleep at night.

As for the province boundaries, these are generally based upon natural units, but not entirely, so there should be no problem rearranging them. However, I don't see them being of much different size - too small would result in too many provinces to staff, and too large would get unweildy and make the governors too powerful.

True, but the Silistra and Rumelia eyalets were pretty big at the time they were replaced (unless I'm wrong about their borders), and the same can be said of the Danube vilayet.

Eliminating a level of hierarchy (like eschewing vilayets/eyalets and going straight to sancaks (probably names "vilayets" or "eyalets") is a possibility, but would cause a "span of control" problem for the central government.

Going straight to the sanjaks? Why didn't I think of that?

But really, you can come up with anything if you just think it out and make it logical.

For instance, you could have some sort of province intermediate in size between a vilayet and a sancak grouped together in "inspectorate generals" where some roving inspector checks abuses (the Ottomans often appointed special inspectors for this purpose) - the Tanzimat men were pretty creative in developing solutions, so you can't go too wrong with at least a basic knowledge of the Ottoman Empire, which you obviously have more than.

Everybody hear that? Abdul told me that I have obviously more than a basic knowledge of the Ottoman Empire.

I think I might go with the intermediate solution. Much thought will have to be put into this, though I hope this time it won't take 4 years.

How accurate is this map? The site is usually very good, but that map contradicts some of the stuff I think I know.

A question unrelated to the POD: When was the Varna-Shumen-Rousse-Silistra quadrilateral built? Every reference I've found on it limits itself to mentioning its existence and, if they're particularly generous, its role in the 1877-1878 war. I suspect many of these references can be traced to some Britannica, directly or indirectly.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Another question for Abdul: Did Europeans who came to the Ottoman Empire and converted to Islam usually adopt Muslim names? I know of at least one guy who did, an 18th century Frenchman, but I don't know if his case is representative for the 2nd half of the 19th century.

 

[Ran Exilis]

Another question for Abdul: Did Europeans who came to the Ottoman Empire and converted to Islam usually adopt Muslim names? I know of at least one guy who did, an 18th century Frenchman, but I don't know if his case is representative for the 2nd half of the 19th century.

Though I realize the question is not adressed to me, AFAIK it has been quite usual throughout the ages (not just in the Ottoman Empire)
for converts to Islam to adopt a Muslim name, and the Ottoman Empire is by no means an exception on this.

One example of a 19th century case is that of Mykhailo Chaikovsky, who adopted the name Mehmed Sadyk Pasha.
(his conversion must have been somewhere in the 1840's or 1850's, but that's only a gues)

There are other cases like this as well, but I can't remember any right now.

 

[Max Sinister]

Don't the Turks themselves make an exception? It seems to me that they kept their old Turkish names they had before conversion instead of taking Arab names.

 

[Ran Exilis]

Don't the Turks themselves make an exception? It seems to me that they kept their old Turkish names they had before conversion instead of taking Arab names.

...yes, that is indeed true to a degree; after the Turkish hordes converted to Islam and Turkish culture became an Islamized culture, Turkish names became traditional Muslim names.

But this is not quite restricted to Turkish culture and names by the way, since the same thing happened with Persian culture and names.

 

[Keenir]

Another question for Abdul: Did Europeans who came to the Ottoman Empire and converted to Islam usually adopt Muslim names?

from what I understand, changing one's name upon conversion is not mandatory, tis voluntary.

I know of at least one guy who did, an 18th century Frenchman, but I don't know if his case is representative for the 2nd half of the 19th century.

there was Hobart Pasha, a 19th Cen. Englishman who was prominent in (if I recall) the Ottoman navy.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Don't the Turks themselves make an exception? It seems to me that they kept their old Turkish names they had before conversion instead of taking Arab names.

I can't think of any examples of a European who converted to Islam and did not change their name.

I'm not sure what you mean by Turks keeping their old names vs. Arab names. But most Turks in the Ottoman period had Islamic names. Turkish versions conformed to Turkish orthgraphy, i.e. Osman vs Uthman, etc. There are also a lot of Persian names, as well as some traditional Turkish names.

It's different for a European, because their names are obviously alien and would stand out too much - plus there were a fair number of resident unconverted officials, like Hobart Pasha or Baker Pasha from whom they would likely wish to distinguish. Adopting an Islamic name was often like a badge of conversion - and once you do this you are socially indistinguishable from a native (in theory - in practice it varied from person to person depending on circumstances).

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

The name is just a detail, but I tend to obsess over details. I'm also rather conservative about messing with them.



Then I can sleep at night.



True, but the Silistra and Rumelia eyalets were pretty big at the time they were replaced (unless I'm wrong about their borders), and the same can be said of the Danube vilayet.



Going straight to the sanjaks? Why didn't I think of that?



Everybody hear that? Abdul told me that I have obviously more than a basic knowledge of the Ottoman Empire.

I think I might go with the intermediate solution. Much thought will have to be put into this, though I hope this time it won't take 4 years.

How accurate is this map? The site is usually very good, but that map contradicts some of the stuff I think I know.

A question unrelated to the POD: When was the Varna-Shumen-Rousse-Silistra quadrilateral built? Every reference I've found on it limits itself to mentioning its existence and, if they're particularly generous, its role in the 1877-1878 war. I suspect many of these references can be traced to some Britannica, directly or indirectly.

I'm not sure how accurate the map is - I was under the impression that the eyalets were much more irregular than that, and some of them on this map coincide too much with the later vilayets. In any case, that map covers a large span of time in which constant reorganization of provincial boundaries was occurring, and I'm not sure anyone knows where the lines were drawn at any given moment. The only map I have of provinces from earlier is 1815, when most of the Balkans are in two huge provinces, Rumeli and Silistre.

The "Quadrilateral" is a term I too have only seen in reference to the1877-78 war. It's cities were fortresses throughout the 19th c, but I would imagine that some of them were less important in earlier periods when the Ottomans controlled more territory.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

from what I understand, changing one's name upon conversion is not mandatory, tis voluntary.



there was Hobart Pasha, a 19th Cen. Englishman who was prominent in (if I recall) the Ottoman navy.

True, voluntary. Hobart didn't convert though, and retained British citizenship. He was very prominent in the Ottoman navy - although the actual range of his authority is disputed, and as he was a recent character, someone needs to sift through a lot of Ottoman documents to try to get past accounts with an agenda (British sources exaggerate his role, Turkish sources discount it).

 

[Max Sinister]

Some Turkish names are certainly Arab (Ali, Mohammed=Mehmed, Ömer = Omar, and so on). But you said it too - some Turkish names were also preserved. I don't think *every* Turkish name has an Arab equivalent.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/asmin/ottanatolia1861.GIF

Another map for Abdul to authenticate (as much as possible).

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Some Turkish names are certainly Arab (Ali, Mohammed=Mehmed, Ömer = Omar, and so on). But you said it too - some Turkish names were also preserved. I don't think *every* Turkish name has an Arab equivalent.

There are also a number of Persian names, but these are more commonly female.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/asmin/ottanatolia1861.GIF

Another map for Abdul to authenticate (as much as possible).

I think that maps is intended to dipict the Vilayet structure, and is just superimposed upon a map drawn in 1861. They are just too similar to the Vilayets - with a few sancaks attached to the wrong provinces.

I'm pretty sure the Anatolian eyalets were way more irregularly shaped before the provincal law.

Here's a map of 1800 - things would have changed in between... I'll see if I can find a map at home.

http://www.euratlas.com/time/sea1800.htm

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

I think that maps is intended to dipict the Vilayet structure, and is just superimposed upon a map drawn in 1861. They are just too similar to the Vilayets - with a few sancaks attached to the wrong provinces.

I'm pretty sure the Anatolian eyalets were way more irregularly shaped before the provincal law.

Here's a map of 1800 - things would have changed in between... I'll see if I can find a map at home.

http://www.euratlas.com/time/sea1800.htm

Makes sense. They have another map from this "Kiepert" source showing the Balkans in 1861, and that similarity pops up again (though the Danube vilayet is divided and Thessaly appears as a separate polity, strangely enough).

This 1850 map shows the Asian territory (Arab possessions excluded) as being divided into 18 eyalets, with their capitals underlined in red (the blue lines don't reflect their borders though). I know some of their info was out of date in 1850; it stands up quite well with the 1800 map you linked, except in Iraq and that corner near Georgia. And they've got Acre where your map has Saida (Sidon).

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Makes sense. They have another map from this "Kiepert" source showing the Balkans in 1861, and that similarity pops up again (though the Danube vilayet is divided and Thessaly appears as a separate polity, strangely enough).

This 1850 map shows the Asian territory (Arab possessions excluded) as being divided into 18 eyalets, with their capitals underlined in red (the blue lines don't reflect their borders though). I know some of their info was out of date in 1850; it stands up quite well with the 1800 map you linked, except in Iraq and that corner near Georgia. And they've got Acre where your map has Saida (Sidon).

I still think those provinces are too big - I'm pretty sure I saw a map where the east was split up into a large number of very small provinces. And I'm pretty sure there was never a province called "Armenia"

Also. if you look at the map of the European part, it's really wrong - look at Serbia.

I must have a map somewhere. I'll look in an hour or so when I get home.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

I still think those provinces are too big - I'm pretty sure I saw a map where the east was split up into a large number of very small provinces. And I'm pretty sure there was never a province called "Armenia"

Those are not provincial names or boundaries. They reflect the author's understanding of historical/geographical regions. Ignore the blue lines and use the red underlined cities as guides.

Also. if you look at the map of the European part, it's really wrong - look at Serbia.

And that's just one of the more obvious inaccuracies that you can find in Milner's. Other require even more expertise to spot, like the absence of a Russian province. And I strongly suspect Euratlas isn't foolproof either.

One thing that I found weird on the same map is Herzegovina, which is about twice as big as I knew it is. I presumed this to be another error on their part, but then I found a 1829 German map and a 1830 French one which show it covering the same territory.

What do you do when even contemporary sources screw up?

 

[Wendell]

The list may be inaccurate, but Wikipedia lists the vilayets and sanjaks from various periods of Ottoman rule.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

OK, I searched my entire library. The is no f#$%ing map of the eyalets prior to the provincial reform. I'm not sure it's clear what the boundaries were. I think there is good deal of confusion about the boundaries AFTER the reform - but any map can only be a snapshot as they shifted around over time.

I'm under the impression they were very irregular, but in general smaller than vilayets - but I think there were a few really big ones too. The whole program was supposedly modelled on the French Department system, of which I know little, but it seems to me that Deparments were much smaller and lacked the sub-divisions of the Vilayets. In any case, the Vilayets were meant to have somewhat equal populations, although geographical, political, and strategic factors came into play.